Now Things Get Serious

Kurt —  June 29, 2007

It was a nice draft for the Lakers.

That’s basically how I’ve felt about most of the personnel moves of the team in the past couple of years — they were nice. Nothing wrong with them, but they certainly weren’t not thrilling or aggressive.

However, come Sunday, the time for something thrilling is upon us.

Back to the draft, Jarvis Crittenton is a quality pick up — yes we have Farmar but is having two young point guards with potential a problem? Let them push each other, let them fight for playing time and may the best player win. (And, by the way, Lakers staff said they are not in the running for the Greek PG.) Crittenton was the best guy left on the board when the Lakers drafted, he was the best choice. And the fact he played the triangle offense in high school gives him a leg up.

Marc Gasol provides potential depth if Kwame and/or Bynum gets traded. Sun Yue is a gamble, but that’s what should be done with second round picks — take a flier and see if it pans out down the line.

While Thursday night may not have been thrilling for Lakers fans, there were a lot of good things that happened (as Reed pointed out in a must-read comment). First and foremost, Kevin Garnett did not get traded. Minnesota did not get the picks and expiring contracts they sought, and now have to rethink their plans. Indiana is in the same boat, still having Jermaine O’Neal and decreasing options.

The Lakers are still in the mix if either of them get moved, and that’s why I say that come July 1 — when free agency opens and sign-and-trade deals can happen — it is the time for something thrilling. Not that the Lakers should overpay, but if a superstar is to be moved the Lakers are in as good a position as any to still be in the mix.

Fans wanted something to happen fast, ideally before the draft. But the Lakers as buyers better understood the market than the sellers. They were right to be patient, let the sellers see that the market is not quite what they thought. Both Minnesota and Indiana are under some pressure to make deals, and while things previously stalled the Lakers need to make sure they stay in the mix as the sellers re-evaluate their options.

What is not an option — based on the comments of Kupchak and Jackson — is trading Kobe. Trading Kobe because he demands it would leave the Lakers with the same problems other sellers face — a market not paying what you’d want in return. The Internet (and the comments of this blog at times) have been awash in Kobe trade scenarios, with most Laker fans thinking they could get a fair deal for Kobe. But right now that is not the case. Trading Kobe this summer, unless a spectacular deal comes out of nowhere, sets this franchise back a decade.

Patience is a hard thing for fans, but the Lakers are in a good position to be aggressive now. They are in a pretty good position in the market to make a move. It is the time to be aggressive — smart, but aggressive. That would be thrilling.

Kurt

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100 responses to Now Things Get Serious

  1. A follow up thought or two:

    In evaluating the Garnett situation, we need to remember that he ultimately controls his destiny. Because he is one year away from opting out, the Twolves can only send him somewhere he approves. He used this veto power effectively with the Boston deal. His agent made it clear that he preferred Phoenix and had a short list of teams. Now, I hate to play the “some source told me X” card, but I will say that I have heard directly from people in the league that Garnett has a very, very short list of approved teams. Some in the media have reported that he only will go to L.A. or Phoenix, and prefers the latter. Think about what we’ve heard about substantive trade discussions — those are the only two teams that have “seriously” been after him. As much as Chicago makes sense, if Garnett was willing to go there, we would have seen Chicago doing all they could to make it happen. Intead, they are not even in the picture. Now, Garnett’s approved list might very well expand with time if Minnesota fails to move him quickly, but from what we know now, I think we can safely assume we are on his short list. Hopefully, the Kobe saga did not ruin this.

    A few have commented that the Lakers don’t have to make a big trade. They note that the team was pretty good last year when healthy and that Bynum will be better. Mitch seems to have this philosophy. In a vacuum, I might agree. Why not let the parts come together and hope Bynum breaks through quickly. However, this just isn’t an option anymore. Kobe’s demands are constant and real. Ignoring them would lead to a nasty showdown. The front office must make big changes and they must do so this summer. With Kobe commanding so little value on the market, there is no alternative course.

    Thankfully, Mitch did not panic into overpaying early. With the Garnett suitors dwindling and Indy and Minnesota desperate to get some value for their stars this summer, we are regaining some needed leverage. I think we got lucky in dodging a Garnett to Phoenix bullet, and are in a much better negotiating position now than we were a week or two ago. With sign and trades now an option, Kurt is right that the table is set for us to finally break through with a bold move.

  2. I truly belive in Lamar Odom…..I dont want him to go….had he not been injured….well…we may be waiting to see the next banner go into the Rafters….seriously. Stew said it soem many times…”its the year of the Ankle”.

    I know that since Kobe has made his statement…its not going to be the same team….and that is to bad…I understand his frustration….I just wish he could have held back 1 more year.

    But if we get KG….and in some perfect world scenario we keep Lamar…then we can just play 3 on 5 and got 98 and 0 next season.

  3. As far as the apporaching free agency period. We are in a tough spot because ultimatley we need a veteran pg to come in and start for us. We may get that pg in a trade for JO or KG, but neither of those trades are for sure. We may also need a center, assuming we move Bynum, Kwame or both. However, again, uncertainty prevents us from moving forward. So, we will have a hard time targeting players and simaltanously trying to trade players.

    My advice: spend the MLE on a wing defender/shooter (Stevenson, Posey, Pietrus), and the Veterans Minimum for a pg (Pargo or Brevin Knight). Whatever trades you make, you make, but do not lose sight of filling needs through free agency

  4. PICK UP BREVIN KNIGHT. That is all.

  5. reed,

    I also think it should be noted that the Lakers would be willing and able to take on the contract of Marko Jaric or Troy Hudson (I prefer Jaric). Other teams might not be so willing, especially with the big price of Garnett’s contract, but seeing as we’re in the “win now” mode as much or more than anyone, we can do it.

    One thing that is interesting though is that Minny probably would want future first rounders instead of Crittenton. They have Foye and now Brewer so that would render our new rookie pointless.

    Not a big thing though, just a thought.

  6. Go over the cap and go after Chauncey Billups. Even we do this, we may not have to make any trades.

  7. It should be clear by now that the two most important attributes for a point guard in the triangle are three-point shooting and defense. Brevin Knight excels at neither.

  8. Is LA too thin up front if Odom, Bynum, and Brown all go to Minnesota? KG, Mihm, Turiaf, and Cook would be about all that’s left. Even with Garnett and Kobe, that looks a little light…

    Chicago would be unwilling to give up 2 of Gordon, Hinrich, or Deng for Kobe…but what if LA took Gordon, Ty Thomas, Noah, and PJ Brown. Certainly it makes LA younger but sets them up nicely in the frontcourt for years to come. I think that’s the best case scenario for trading Kobe.

  9. Paul- Can’t get Chauncey by going over the cap. All we have is the MLE, so the only way to get Billups is through a sign-and-trade. He would help, but a top-flight pg isn’t exactly our biggest need.

    Need 1: Post scorer and defender
    Need 2: Veteran ball-handler, shooter, defender
    Need 3: atletic swingman with ability to shoot and defend.

  10. Maybe I should do a “free agency and the salary cap” post. The Lakers cannot just “go over the cap” to get Billups or anyone else. Under the current rules the Lakers cannot — repeat CANNOT — offer more than the mid-level exception of just shy of $6 million to any free agent. The Lakers are over the cap as we speak and therefore can only offer up the “exception” that exists for teams over the cap. This means they cannot get a free agent who commands more than $6 mil — Billups and Mo Williams, for example.

    Hence, all the trade talk.

  11. Good thoughts Kwame and Drew. I agree with both.

    If Phoenix truly is essentially out of the Garnett running (which might not be true if he strongly prefers landing there), I think we have three big advantages over Golden State and Dallas (the others reportedly in play): (1) as Drew notes, we can take back a bad Minnesota contract and Dallas/GS don’t have the salaries to do that very easily; (2) our big contracts (Odom and Kwame) come off in the next 2 years, whereas Dallas (Terry, Dampier) and GS (Harrington) have players with much longer contracts; and (3) our young assets would flil needed positions for Minnesota (they have a shooting guard and small forward in Foye and Brewer, but little else). With this in mind, I don’t see how anyone tops an offer of (assume other small expiring contracts are sent as needed like Sasha):

    Odom, Bynum, Kwame, and Crittenton/Farmar for Garnett and Jaric/Hudson.

    This gives Minnesota a young center and point guard, some cap relief next summer, and big cap relief in two summers. Plus, Odom isn’t too bad to have in the meantime.

    As far as cap room, Minnesota has Ricky Davis and Eddie Griffin coming off next summer (about 10M) and Howard coming off the next summer (7.4M). So losing Kwame and Odom the next two years would be very attractive, especially if Jaric or Hudson’s contract is off too. I don’t see any other teams that can or would take back that much salary from Minnesota and offer contracts that are up the next 2 years.

    I think I disagree about Minnesota not needing a point guard. I see Foye as more of a Ben Gordon type — small combo scoring guard. Crittenton would be a nice big point guard to fill the distributing role. Just my opinion. And Brewer is a small forward. Our trade would leave them with: Crittenton, Foye, Brewer, Odom, Bynum — with big cap room. Certainly better than what they have now.

    Apologies for writing too much again — slow day at work.

  12. reed,

    That’s a very good point about Foye, and Ben Gordon is a nice comparison.

    Who would you rather give up, Crittendon or Farmar? I’d stick with Crittenton since he’s bigger and stronger and a 6’5″ PG is very Phil-esque.

    I wouldn’t let that be a deal breaker, but I’d like to hold onto him.

    Jaric would fill the veteran ball-handler hole too.

  13. Good stuff, Reed. I really enjoy the level-headed viewpoints here.

    My question again, though, is how LA looks in the front court should that Garnett trade go down?

    As far as I can tell, it’s KG, Mihm (maybe), Turiaf, and Cook. Am I missing anyone? I think a possible MLE would be a big like Magloire.

    Even Kobe and KG need some size to go with their awesome talent. I’d feel very uneasy having KG go up against Dirk, Duncan, Boozer, Brand, etc. every night.

  14. Miked- If the Lakers can get a pg in a trade then they can sign a big for the MLE. Also, they can get a big back like Blount or Harrison if they get KG or JO. I heard if Mihm is healthy they wanna see him play summer leauge. Mihm/Turiaf/free agent would be enough to support KG, not JO though

  15. miked,

    I agree, we’d be very, very thin up front. I’m going to work under the assumption that we take back Jaric/Hudson in the deal, so our MLE or trades don’t have to be made to acquire a veteran PG.

    We might have to go after vets like Magloire, although he’s VERY slow-footed and I’m not sure about that, or take a bit of a flyer on a younger player and hope he can thrive with Kobe and KG (Amir Johnson of Detroit?).

    And don’t forget, we have the mighty Marc Gasol!!! HA!

  16. Does anyone else think this is weird?

    Every single ESPN NBA message board has a post on it that says “Kobe Video Released”.

    I have always wondered if ESPN pays people to go into message boards in each sport and generate controversy, and sway public opinion. This just validates my suspicions

    Go to this link and look at each team page:

    http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=espn&id=index#nba

  17. They won’t get Blount back unless Minny takes Radmanovich (yeah right).

    Barring that happening, here’s the lineup:

    C – Magloire (MLE), Mihm
    PF – KG, Turiaf, Cook
    SF – Walton, Radmanovich
    SG – Kobe, Evans, Vujacic
    PG – Jaric, Crittenton/Farmar

    The strength of this team is arguably dependent on what big comes with the MLE.

  18. Miked–

    I think the point about being left too thin after a KG deal is a fair one. Isolated from the Kobe saga, I think giving Kwame/Odom/Bynum/Crittenton is way, way too much. But, given that Kobe has said the only scenario where he reconsiders leaving is by bringing in Garnett, I think you have to move hell and high water to make it happen — and deal with the fall out later. Passing on KG because the price was too high would make the situation with Kobe irreparable. Because Chicago and other teams appear completely unwilling to give any kind of value for Kobe, we have to appease him through any means possible.

    That all said, I think it would be possible to build around Kobe-KG. You really don’t need much beyond savvy veterans who defend and make shots — Kobe and KG perfectly compliment eachother and cover every important basketball skill. Walton, Farmar, Evans, and Turiaf are nice supplemental pieces. Maybe Radman gets better if his hand is healed. Move Cook fo r Head or another shooter. Gasol and/or Sun might provide a little emergency depth. Perhaps a veteran comes for below market value to play on a contender. The MLE would probably fetch an adequate veteran point guard or big body. Bring back Mihm.

    Maybe it’s not enough, but you do it, placate Kobe, put together the pieces as well as you can, and maybe add something next summer if we fall short.

    As between Farmar and Crittenton, I keep the one who is most ready to help next year. Probably Farmar, but Phil can judge that. Championship teams don’t play 19 year olds in their 8 man rotations — they play savvy 30 year olds who understand the nuances (look back at the Spurs, Lakers, Pistons, Bulls teams). So, you’ve got to surround Kobe-KG with players who are ready now. Farmar isn’t, but he might be more so than Crittenton. But, it’s not a dealbreaker, as you note.

  19. It is very true – the thought of KG and Kobe together trumps any other concerns about the roster. Make it work. And I think your comment about them complementing each other perfectly is spot on.

    I thought Bill Simmons had a pretty astute observation about a KG/Kobe combo. He said it would pretty much answer any question or doubt that has been raised about either of these two players abilities. No more excuses.

  20. The question of whether we’d rather keep Farmar or Crittenton is a no-brainer to me. Crittenton’s at least a couple years off with a lot of question marks, while I think Farmar will be a quality starter this year. On top of that, Crittenton probably has more trade value to GMs because of his supposed upside.

    Now if I personally had to choose between Javaris/Bynum as my future or Monta/Brandan Wright/Biedrins, I’m definitely going with the latter. So then it becomes a question of, how much will GS be willing to sacrifice?

  21. Isn’t a Farmar/Crittenton choice (in a KG scenario at least) sorta answered by who Minny would prefer LA take back (Hudson or Jaric)? If Minny prefers to keep Jaric (longer contract but arguably more talented), then LA keeps the bigger Crittenton. If it’s a vice versa, and Minny opts to keep the shorter contract (Hudson), then LA keeps the smaller Farmar to pair with the bigger Jaric.

    So Jaric/Farmar or Hudson/Crittenton in the backcourt for LA?

  22. chopperdave,

    I wonder if the salaries are enough to match if you include just those three from Golden State and the $10 million trade exception. If so I think GS could just walk right up and get KG. Would kind of make you wish the Lakers would have sent LO to Charlotte for the No.8, huh?

    Brandan Wright, Andrew Bynum, Kwame and trade exception for KG? Minny takes it in a heartbeat.

    Monta Ellis is a tad redundant with Foye in that line-up.

  23. I agree that Ellis/Wright/Biedrins trumps our young talent, but those players make just a few million between them and GS will have a much, much harder time finding sufficiently large contracts that will expire soon. Let’s hope that Minnesota doesn’t like Harrington and no one gifts an expiring deal to GS to facilitate a KG deal. And, as you note, would GS even give that much in the first place?

  24. Also, you can’t use the trade exception to get a player with a higher salary. GS can’t send the trade exception with Ellis/Wright for KG directly. They can only use the exception to take on contracts up to 9.9M. So, GS has to first turn the exception into an expiring deal or use Harrington in the deal. As I wrote earlier, the expiring contracts that would work for GS are not likely to be available to them (Kwame, Kurt Thomas, Ratliff, Jason Williams). So, I think that helps us.

  25. i was not satisfied at all w/ our last 2 picks. we need help right away and im tired of all this upside and potential talk. w/ kobes last year coming up we should have selected players that have already established themselves as good basketball players at the college level like a glen davis, alando tucker, aaron gray, taureen green, jamareo davidson, or nick fazekas. we could have easily traded up to get one of those. crittenton is a turnover machine.

  26. Folks, I know we’re impatient and I understand of course. I’m as interested in the outlook of the Lakers as any other Laker fan….but I think the key to the draft was just not limiting our options. And that has happened. If you can make a card-playing analogy, I think Mitch has kept his hand secret very well. It’s not being helped by 24′s periodic petulant tirades, but Mitch has more cards to play now and he knows that if the Lakers are going to emerge as a long-time force in the NBA, they have some cards to play and I believe that they will make a deal. Personally, I’d rather not invest all this effort in getting KG. I don’t like the way in which #24 has essentially taken the team and the whole city hostage. Kobe is not the GM and he can bang on Andrew all he wants but I think the Lakers will be better this coming year than they were last year, even if they don’t do anything. Anyway, I’m not for big changes; it just seems to me that the risk outweighs the reward and we’re not in such bad shape. But if we gamble big and lose big, well then we’re going to be in the same situation three or five years from now wondering how the Lakers can remain a long-term legitimate NBA player for a while.

  27. Chopperdave I think you’re right GS has more to offer. But if KG is traded it will ultimately come down to who KG wants to go to. If KG does not want to play with GS then all he has to do is say I will opt out after next season. That makes trading Brandon Wright a player that perfectly fits GS style of play a dumb move. Chicago also has the pieces to make a move to get Garnett assuming they can get Brown to go with a sign, trade and Buy out. Paxson is a good GM but he seems unwilling to take a big risk so I don’t see him going after Garnett. Moving Garnett does diminish our front court, however if you sign a big man for the MLE that would somewhat placate that problem. If this deal happens (I would say their is a good chance that no KG deal occurs before the season starts) I don’t think the lakers would win next season. However, with two players the caliber of KG and KB it would be pretty easy to fill in needed roster spots with veterans. As far as the PG position goes too bad we let Derek Fisher go. He’d look pretty good right now. If we got KG and KB maybe we could get him back next summer.

  28. Scotty2hotty,
    The reason we took 2 “projects” in the second round is that we did not have any roster spots available. This way we can leave Sun or Sue or whatever his name is and Gasol overseas until we need them

  29. Read This …

    Pau Gasol demanding trade on his website – ala Kobe?
    Published by LD2kat June 29, 2007 in Articles. 54 Comments
    This has been posted on Pau’s official website for quite some time, and I never really want to post it here until now. Considering we’ve drafted Pau’s brother and Kobe & Gasol had a nice private meeting in Spain a few weeks ago. I think it’s worth mentioning. Check it (note: it’s in Spanish):

    Pau’s Gasol’s website: ‘If they want to keep me that bad, they need to make the necessary effort to surround me with players capable of competing at the highest level. I want to be on a wining team, with ambitions and options, and have the chances I didn’t have last year.”

  30. I don’t read spanish , maybe somebody can translate

    http://www.paugasol.com/index.asp?tid=2&cid=108&did=152980

  31. I hope that GS goes in a different direction with Wright. They coveted Yi Jianlian in the draft and Yi’s contingent wants him in a bigger Asian market like San Francisco. If things get sticky with Yi refusing to play for Milwaukee, maybe GS will swoop in and swap Wright for Yi. That seems like a possible resolution to the issue.

  32. Or their teams might just keep KG and JO.

    Its still rediculous to assume that KG would leave 8+MM per season on the table. If he left MIN for LAL it would be more like 15+MM per season so its really worse than that.

    GSW can make by far the best offer of the current 3 reportedly in talks if it can use that 10MM exception to get one expiring contract. Its tricky though, you can’t just slap a trade exemption on there and combine dollars like that, so MIN would have to wait until December. I don’t see any reason for them to be in a hurry now.

    Trade exemption to BOS for Ratliff now. (BOS get financial relief OR something to add to its now veteran core) Wait. Ratliff + a pupuu platter of the GSW kids in December. Ratliff 12MM (expiring) + Jasikevicius 4MM (expiring) + Wright + Ellis + Biedrins + 2008 first round gets it done.

    GSW keeps its core intact and adds Garnett. KG would do this. Davis + Jackson will certiainly remind him of his glory days with Cassell and Spree.

    Minny gets a young core including Foye, McCants, Wright, Brewer, Ellis and Biedrins and become players in next year’s deep free agent pool. They can even look to move Howard’s 1 more year contract at the deadline for a mid level vet. THAT’s good rebuilding.

  33. How pumped up would you be right now to be a Blazers fan? No matter how well they do next year, they will be very exciting to watch.

  34. Gr8dunk,

    I think Memphis does have some nice pieces, and Gasol is young enough to be there when they mature. Mike Miller, Conley, Jr., Rudy Gay, Kyle Lowry, Hakim Warrik, etc. is pretty good. The could look to move him for a young center prospect (Bynum), but at Bynum’s best he’ll be Gasol. Why gamble when you have the real thing?

    Although, the timeline seems a bit better with Bynum. But whatever. I do think Gasol is a better fit all around than KG or JO, just because of what we would have to take or give up, both player and salary cap wise.

  35. 30. I translate you the full text

    Pau Gasol asked his team to upgrade the roster with big names if they want to keep them that bad.

    “If they want to retain me they’d have to do the effort to surround me of players able to compete at maximum level”

    In a public event in Valencia Gasol stated:
    ” I want to be in a winning team, with ambicion and with options I didn’t got last year

    Also said that in last weeks he met with the new coach of the team and that Iavaroni said they wanted to keep him.

    *The rest of the article said that he thinks Spain has a chance to win the European Tournament, and that Rudy Fernandez and Marc Gasol are both able to play at good level in the NBA. Also says that JC Navarro would be a good player in America*

  36. I Hate the naive fans that say JORDAN FARMAR is good and that we shouldnt trade him. The only reason you people think he was good was because the other PG’s onthe roster were smush parker and shammond williams. This is one of the MAin reasosns the lakers sucked. even when Farmar started lakers sucked. Farmar got burned by nash so many times. THis is probably a big reason why KObe is pissed we were starting Jordan Farmar at Pg. The fool sucks. He is a terrible fit in the TRiangle. TERRRIBLE. He is short and cant shoot. The only reason you guys think he is good because he is from UCLA. Your guys’s opinions are diluted. He is not good especially in the triangle. He would be better off in a more up-tempo play. Thus you keep Javaris Crittenton ecuase he is a tall PG 6-5 and can shoot. He shot 40% from three-pt land. So you idiots who say keep Farmar just Shut up. JAVARIS IS GOING TO BE A PERFECT FIT WITH THE LAKERS!PEREFCT! His weaknesses such as turnovers and defense can easily be fixed. but you cant fix farmars height or shooting.

  37. I thought it was a good draft. Crittenton was the best pick for the Lakers with what was left on the board and like you said, there’s nothing wrong with two good, young point guards.

    Marc Gasol: I wish my Celtics took him instead of Glen “Big Baby” Davis. Definitely worth a 2nd round pick and seems to be good insurance for Kwame and Bynum.

    Sun Yue is another good 2nd round pick because of the potential upside, especially in a city with a high Asian population.

    Overall I thought it was a good draft by the Lakers and they need to bring in someone like Jermaine or KG to keep Kobe in Purple & Gold.

    -Rizzo
    biggreenmachine.wordpress.com

  38. CHOOSING OPTIMISM

    You’re right Drew Boy. Pau Gasol would be a perfect fit… and if we could someway get him without giving back Lamar… we would have the 3 stars needed to compete in the West. I like the fact that despite a lot of pressure from kobe and the media Lakers management is showing poise and calmness. Sometimes it’s better not to do something just to do something. The real problem is doing something that really improves the team. Giving up both Lamar and Bynum for JO or Gasol wouldn’t improve us… so that won’t happen at all costs. If that’s for KG i’d be leaning towards pulling the trigger on the deal… but i guess from a basketball standpoint if the KG deal would gut the team… it doesn’t make much sense if you want to try to contend right away… getting out at the 2nd round with KG would not appease Kobe… even though i’m sure having them means we can build a championship team in a year or two. But you don’t improve just adding by subtraction… JO would answer a lot of our needs but not at the cost of a player we don’t really know yet what the real value is ( anyway we know Lamar’s impact overall is pretty close to JO ) and the other biggest tradable asset in Bynum… who could really have a breakout season in 2 years. Ok we don’t have much time to wait… and LA can’t wait patiently to build a contender like they did in Chicago and there’s the Kobe conundrum! But maybe patience is the key… maybe waiting through the summer… or even during the season up to the february deadline could give us a real great chance to improve… maybe we could add JO or Gasol giving up only Bynum and filler… or a disgruntled star like Bibby or Artest… who knows? Maybe the waiting game will see us winners at last. I know it’s not easy to make a fair evaluation… there are only 2 possibilities: 1) Laker management is showing great poise and personality in his patient wait for the right deal to materialize. 2) Laker management is showing his inability to make a deal that can really improve this team… and the patience claim just hides their inability to be aggressive and creative.
    I still want to believe in the first hypothesis… i don’t know kobe… but i can be patient up to next february.

    Draft

    Crittenton

    Javaris can be great… D’antoni said he reminds him of Baron Davis… anyway he was the best talent available. And he’s insurance if we have to move a young pg to sweeten a deal.

    Sun Sue

    wow… i just saw a nice video at getgarnett… the chinese magic… I know it’s easy to be vowed by a youTube video… but this guy seems to have talent and skills. We’ll see if he pans out in time. I guess in that video he even blocks Carmelo Anthony… not bad at all.

    Marc Gasol

    I felt it… as you could see from my prediction in the draft live chat in my previous comment. He’s not great at anything… but he has a big body frame… and could really become a serviceable big man… and he has a famous bro… good at 48. He really held the fort while Pau was injured starting for Spain and leading them to the FIBA World Championship… I remind he had a really great game… he’s the typical guy who gives you constant effort even though stats don’t always show brilliance.

  39. Question..can you really make a deal for Garnett without getting him to sign an extension(duh), but most importantly, getting Kobe to sign a deal that prevents him from opting out in 2 years?

    To me, gutting your team for Garnett, even if he signs an extension, without Kobe locked in for the same amount of time, means you get a one year run and then next summer you have to trade Kobe or risk letting him walk. The end result is 2 yrs from now KG as your centerpiece at age 32 without any real help other then what you get for Kobe, which a year from now is not much.

    A trade for KG would be nice, but you need an equal commitment from Kobe or why bother.

  40. LakerFan:

    Relax w/ the profanities.

    As to the “Phil-esque” big point guard theory, Phil has won championships relying on guards such as:
    John Paxon, Bj Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Randy Brown, Derek Fisher, and Tyronne Lue. The reality of the matter is, if it came down to one or the other they would give away whoever the Wolves or Pacers wanted. It’s that simple.

    Farmar may prove to be good for 20 minutes a game this season. To completely discount what he showed on the court during his rookie season is just as diluted as a person thinking he is the next Magic Johnson.

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  42. Portland and Seattle projected lineups next year, have they leapt over the Lakers for playoff positioning?

    Portland:
    PG: Brandon Roy/Jarrett Jack/ Sergio Rodriguez
    SG: Steve Francis/ Martell Webster/ Rudy Fernandez
    SF: Travis Outlaw/ Darius Miles?
    PF: LaMarcus Aldridge/Channing Frye
    C: Oden/ LaFrentz/ Przybilla

    Seattle:
    PG: West / Ridnour / Watson
    SG:Kevin Durant / Wally Sz
    SF: Jeff Green / Wilkins / Gelabale
    PF: Wilcox/ Collison
    C: Swift / Sene / Petro

    Portland to me is a playoff team in the east, and we’ll have to see if they gel enough to make the 8th spot in the west. Seattle has to make another trade. Their two draft picks play the same position, and if they resign Rashard Lewis, he’ll play the 2 and Durant will play the 3, and green hits the bench. They have too much talent at one or two positions, leaving them weak in some of the others.

    Then again, the Lakers depth past Kobe and Odom is suspect, too. But as Phil said: we’re not going into the season with this roster.

  43. Kwame A:
    Beleive me when I say the lakers would rather trade farmar than javaris. they did not draft another Pg in the draft for no reason. and as your defense for the steve kerr,bj armstrong etc etc etc. All those players you mentioned could shoot lights out. JORDAN FARMAR CANT SHOOOT. he is a more up-tempo pg. He would only flourish in the suns style. he is not good for 20 minutes. He is only good for 20 minutes if we have no other alternative. Now we have JAVARIS. youl see foo. that farmar is gonna get traded or womt play much this season u lil pos. Main reason everybody likes him is because he is from LA and went to UCLA . I rest my case FARMAR SUCKS AND CANT SHOOT AND IS A LIL SHRIMP. His 42 inch vert doesnt mean ish cuz he just dunks on fast breaks. cant dunk on people. so dont come back with that bs.

  44. oh yeah i cant beleive i forgot his horrible defense jordan farmars thatr is

  45. lakerfan,

    I think you need to change your name to lakerhater and go post your comments on getgarnett.com where profanities and putdowns are welcome. Here we discuss our opinions with each other and have respect for each other as well as every player who puts on the forum blue and gold.

  46. I don’t believe reliable analysis exists that can state a player is a bust after his rookie year in the NBA. Same goes for whether or not a player can adapt to a new system. Especially a new system that conventional wisdom says takes a year or so to learn.

  47. warren (philippines) June 29, 2007 at 9:29 pm

    Javaris vs. Jordan – I choose Farmar for the simple reasons of experience, poise. Crittenton is big and that is to be desired, but he increases the chances of the deal going through being part of the deal. Meaning, Crittenton appeals to more teams than Farmar. I’ll keep Farmar this way.

    KG vs. JO vs. Pau – KG will indeed gut the team. But who cares? Its Kobe and KG – the match made in basketball heaven.

    JO is somewhat falling short of expectation due to his HUGE contract. Had he been worth 4-5M less, he is one hot potato.

    Pau Gasol is the best value for money amongst the 3. He earns about as much as Odom but his contract runs longer. He is a good shot of “addition” as supposed to the +1 -2 move IF we acquire JO, or the +1 -3 IF we acquire KG.

    Bottom line, Pau Gasol for Kwame, Bynum and Javaris will be the MOST LOGICAL thing to do. It leaves you with a post up 20-10 guy, a triple-double, multi-talented point-forward, the best player in the planet, and still quite a bench to work with. Unlike the 1st 2 scenarios, theres Kobe, theres KG and theres everyone else.

    This may be quite a long shot, but we can also acquire Artest in some other way. Perhaps Cook + Evans + future first or variants thereof, even if it may include Luke Walton.

    Then there would be the “dream” lineup:
    Farmar – Kobe – Artest – Odom – Gasol.

    Ok the last one was a long shot. But its worth the dream.

  48. warren (philippines) June 29, 2007 at 9:40 pm

    43. With regards to Portland, they have already hinted a buy-out for Stevie Francis and the addition of James Jones. Also, that Rudy Fernandez will in most likelihood stay in Spain for one more year. They have indeed “picked” on Phoenix every year, taking their lollipops. Yet, that Phoenix team is as arrogant as ever. See ya in 3-4 years when Nash retires.

    Seattle on the other hand, will likely do a GSW format of offense. Delonte runs the point, Wally at #2. The rest are a combo of Durant-Green-Lewis (assuming he stays) then Wilcox will probably play center.

  49. javaris played in the triangle in high schoool

  50. no i dont need to change my name to laker hater yo guys need to change your names to im stupid cuz i love jordan farmar and actually think he is going to be good on the lakers and is better than javaris crittenton and the main reason i like him is cuz he is from UCLA

  51. Do we Need Him Back ? :-)

    Devean George, who elected to become an unrestricted free agent on Sunday, the day 2007-08 contracts kick in. The Mavericks were alerted by George’s agent, Mark Bartelstein, that the 6-8 swingman would forego the second year of the contract he signed with the Mavericks last summer. He would have earned $2.16 million next season.

    Instead, he is free to sign with any team

  52. John R–

    I think there is some possibility Indy holds on to Oneal. It would surprise me, but he’s youngish and has a lot of value in the East, so we’ll see. However, it would absolutely shock me if Garnett remains with Minnesota after last week. How can McHale ask Garnett back to the team after he was so aggressively and publicly shopped? And, Minnesota’s only chance to rebuild is to get something for him now — anything. Letting him walk sets them back years. Garnett’s agent is also heavily involved in getting him to a contender. I don’t see a scenario where he stays.

    I don’t understand how KG loses a lot of money in coming to LA. He wouldn’t have to opt out next summer, would get a hefty trade kicker, and LA could extend him to a max deal. He loses nothing.

    I agree that GS has a superior collection of young players to throw at Minnesota (and a more stable situation for KG). But, their ability to turn their trade exception into a trade is limited. They can’t use the exception to take back a contract bigger than 9.9M. So, they can’t use it to get Ratliff (who is over 12M). The only other expiring contracts over 7M are Kwame, Kurt Thomas, and Jason Williams. It’s safe to say none of those teams would help GS acquire Garnett (I guess there’s a chance Miami would). As you note, they also would have to wait 60 days after trading their exception for an expiring contract to use that contract in another deal. If Minnesota is anxious to not string out the Garnett sweepstakes all summer (it sure seemed this way last week), then GS is under a lot of pressure to quickly use their exception for some combination of expiring deals that amount to near 9-10M and then beat a competing bidder to the deal. So, there look to be a lot of roadblocks in GS’s way. GS may also want to keep their nice collection of talent together — they don’t have an unhappy superstar demanding radical change. So, I’m optimistic we can maneuver around the Warriors. We’ll see.

  53. warren (philippines) June 29, 2007 at 11:15 pm

    The KG bidding war has just begun. Remember that Boston has just traded for Ray Allen but they still have Theo Ratliff and Al Jefferson. It could be the ploy they devised ti finally land KG.

    Assuming they trade Al Jeff + Gerald Green + Theo for KG… We’re toast.

    Remember that KG will now have to consider playing alongside Ray Allen (arguably the best shooter in the league) and Paul Pierce who is not gun-shy himself.
    They could basically include just about any filler for this to make the salaries match.

    Rondo – Allen – Pierce – KG – Perkins. Ewwwww.

  54. Can GS use the 10 million trade exception they got for the Wright trade to get KG? i would think that they could not use it directly to get him, but I am not 100% sure what the trade rules are. Also can they trade wright who they just acquired in a trade or do they have to wait?

  55. never mind I just read reeds 51 comment and it cleared it up nicely. thank you.

  56. warren (philippines) June 29, 2007 at 11:27 pm

    I envy what the Warriors did. Contrary to others commenting that Mullin was stupid, for me it was a genius move. They now have additional 9.9M of cap space to run for KG. If it fails, they can still go for Gerald Wallace to play SG/SF.

    The trade basically netted them a possible Richardson for KG, or if it fails, Richardson for #8 Wright + Gerald Wallace. Wow.

    But theres still a little room there. Assuming the cap will be at 57M this year ( an 8% increase from last year) the Cats still have 21M to spare. The move for Charlotte basically raised them up a notch in the weak East. They will be needing other players to complement the acquisition of JRich.
    I say we trade Kwame Brown and Sasha Vujacic and 08 future 1st for the #22 pick. Then we can have 10M cap room of our own while Charlotte receives 2 players to help their cause (which happen to be expirings).
    Felton – JRich – Wallace – Okafor – Kwame.

    For the Lakers, we get to enjoy additional cap room for one year. We make a run at Mo Williams and we do the JO trade.

    Mo Williams – Kobe – Walton – JO – Mihm.

    We still can package Jared Dudley for a decent big man to help the cause. Perhaps Ike Diogu from Indy.

  57. If KG’s goal is to contend, does a GS team gutted of its best young talent make a good fit? If he wants to compete for a title, he’s then banking on Barron Davis being healthy. I love Davis, one of my three or four favorite players to watch when he’s healthy, but banking on him playing all season and into the playoffs like he did at the end of last season is a big risk. Personally, I like what GS is doing with its youth and I’m not sure KG is the piece they would want, or that would work for him.

  58. And, as I was out picking out bathroom fixtures, I’m a little late to the Jordan Farmar/Jarvis discussion, but it is way too early to say one will be better than the other three years from now.

    In their last years at college, neither Jordan nor Jarvis were particularly impressive shooters. Jarvis had an eFG% of 50.1% last year, Farmar at UCLA was 48.5%. Farmar improved that to 49.8% with the Lakers last year, still not where you’d like him shooting but the fact his shooting percentage got better with a deeper three-point line shows he was working on it.

    And defensively, opposing point guards averaged an eFG% 47.7% against Farmar and a PER of 15.2. Those are pretty good numbers, they mean opposing PGs were average against him. (For comparison, we have wished we could get Mo Williams, well he allowed opposing PGs shoot 48% and have a PER of 16.9.)

    Farmar is not a perfect defender, if Lakerfans standard is he got burned by Steve Nash, well, then every player in the league is a poor defender. Farmar is solid, and a gym rat who works hard to improve. Work ethic goes a long way in the NBA. We’ll see if Jarvis can match it.

    But as has been said, to make the right deal either one is expendable.

  59. 57. Trading Brown + Vujacic isn’t working.
    that would give the lakers a 12M trade excepcion for the Lakers and THAT’S ALL.
    The Lakers are now with a 10 man roster 3M over the cap, now sign Crittenton (1M), Walton (5-6M), Mihm (2-3M) and asume they don’t sign any 2nd Round player.
    They would have then a 13 man roster 11M over the cap

    the trade proposed would leave the lakers with 10 players and just 1M under the cap.
    considering that the MLE cannot be combined with salary cap to sign players Mo Williams and his 8-9M demand is impossible and then Trading for JO would left the team at 12 players if not less, with just 1M and the MLE to complete the roster.

    the next move would be Trading Kobe for Stephen Jackson and Baron Davis
    Fire Mitch Kupchack
    and Jerry Buss & co. exiliated to Cuba and every single laker fan Vodooing him

    and even if it would work out…
    holly s&%#, the
    Williams – Kobe – Walton – JO – Mihm
    you proposed…
    arrrggg thats not a lottery team because Kobe would kill someone before that would happen again

    Im sorry but we aren’t in good position to hit free agency, Orlando and Charlotte are but not the Lakers

  60. sorry lakerfan, you didn’t make any point other than Farmar is short… well, that, and you are too dumb to realize that this is a place for adult discussions, not a IM-trash-forum w/ grade school vocab…

    Fact is, Farmar was quite good last year, very poised, and very confident on the drive. Plus, he knows the triangle at THIS level… high school is NOT the same.
    Furthermore, he shot decent from 3pt… 33% on only 2 attempts per game… and 36% in Laker wins.

    In short, Slow down, chill with the cursing, and put up a thought that could be considered thought out.

  61. 36, 44,45,48 Lakerfan, though we all get emotional and opinionated from time to time, we just don’t post the way you do on this blog.

    Here’s an excerpt.

    “THis is probably a big reason why KObe is pissed we were starting Jordan Farmar at Pg. The fool sucks. He is a terrible fit in the TRiangle. TERRRIBLE. He is short and cant shoot. ”

    Before we get to agreeing or disagreeing, we have to get through a “runon” sentence, misuse of capitals, a one word sentence and a quaint word you call “cant.”

    That just a brief excerpt. Don’t you edit at all? Before one agrees or disagrees with you, one needs to understand what you say and what you mean–no easy task.

    If you want to challenge the quality of Farmar, try citing some facts and statistics. If you think he’s too short, compare him to all the other point guards in the NBA and rank him. If you think he can’t shoot, compare his shooting percentage to others. If you think he can’t play defense, compare his +- with other players.

    The use of poorly constructed coarse language and showing disrespect for those who might disagree with you is against Kurt’s code.

    It’s hard to say that Jordan doesn’t know defense, considering the fanaticism of Ben Howland–his college coach. He obviously was showing “something” to the team. He played himself away from the development league and cracked the starting lineup by the end of the season. He impressed others in the league. Jordan was selected as a member of the freshman all star team in the NBA last year.

    You talk about Jordan as not knowing the triangle. The Laker coaches said Jordan picked up the triangle as fast as anyone they had ever coached. You say he is more suited for an up tempo type of game. Where did he play that way? UCLA games tended to run in the 50′s or 60′s.

    Crittenden looks like a terrific prospect, but let’s withold judgment at least until he gets a chance to play as a Laker in the preseason and alternate with Farmar. Then we’ll have some data.

  62. Jordan v Javaris

    I dont know what the heck Kurt is talking about
    ” Farmar at UCLA was 48.5%. Farmar improved that to 49.8% with the Lakers last year”
    Where do you get your stats bro. Because I just checked espn.com and farmar FG % was 42.2% and his threes were 32.8% that is f**king horible. Seriously i thought you actually knew what you were talking about. Also Farmar’s ceiling is much much lower than Javaris. Seriously if Farmar came out of Washington State. I dont think you guys would be as high on him. Also when Jordan farmar is out of the league and Javaris is tearing it up Please remember Me. Please.

  63. lakerfan, I use eFG%, effective field goal percentage, which accounts for the made three pointers into a shooting percentage. I can also tell you that Jarvis had an offensive rating of 106 (points per 100 possessions used) last year, Farmar was at 99.5 his last year at UCLA. The stats and many more come from kenpom.com, by far the best NCAA stat site on the Web.

    I think you have a lot to learn about this site. It’s a pretty level headed crowd, I like the whole Taft/UCLA/Lakers idea, but that is far from clouding my view of him. He is not on his way to superstardom in the league, but he could develop into a solid guard. You seem sold that Farmar is not that good, but how much have you seen of Jarvis? The only person I know that saw a lot of Jarvis, Kevin at Clipperblog, ripped him. I hope he’s wrong. But we are talking about two players selected in the last half of the first round. To suggest that there is a definitive answer to who will be the better player based on what we’ve seen (the hours of comparitive film you’ve watched? A 30-second youtube clip doesn’t cut it) is at best foolish.

  64. lakerfan I said it before and apparently you didn’t want to listen so I’ll say it again… This is a site where we discuss our opinions and thoughts with each other and have adult conversations. We have RESPECT for each other, the players who wear Forum Blue and Gold, and especially Captain Kurt who does such a fantastic job of running this blog. So far you have disrespected us, the Lakers players (Farmar) and Kurt. Over at getgarnett.com people yell and curse at each other all day with bogus opinions that don’t make any sense. This site is the exact opposite of that. If you have something intelligent to say here, do it within the context of Kurt’s rules and we will respect you and your opinions and discuss them with you.

  65. lakerfan we agree with you that Javaris can be really good. That’s why the Lakers drafted him. He is part of the TEAM now. We are happy that he has played the triangle in high school and we all hope he can translate that into learning Phil’s offense very quickly and effectively. We would all love to see Javaris play well, but Jordan Farmar is also on the Lakers and as of right now, Javaris and Jordan are the only two point guards on the roster (Sasha doesn’t count) so we have to expect them to share time and both play well. Jordan now has a year of experience under his belt and is a very smart basketball player due to being very well coached by Ben Howland at UCLA. If you actually watched some games this year, you would see that Jordan is actually pretty good at moving his feet and staying in front of people. His weakness is that he is (was) a rookie and was getting outsmarted a few times by the 2-time league MVP.

  66. I’ve known Jordan Farmar since he was a youngster. The guy has been about becoming a solid pro ball player his entire life. He made it to this point simply through hard work. Did you see how we was in the gym working on his game the night of the draft? Dude is determined to be great. Doubting Jordan is nothing new. People doubted what he could do when he was in high school and he led a valley team to a city title and made the McDonalds all-american team. People doubted what he could do at UCLA, yet he still got them to a National Title game. People doubted that he could be a first round pick, yet he was picked in the first round by the Lakers last year. Before the season, everyone assumed that he would be sent down to the D-League. But because of his hardwork and determination he managed to stay on the big lead roster for the entire season. It’s time that people start doubting Mr. Farmar. Some people are just born winners. And that is exactly what Jordan is. So stop the hate!

  67. Reed (11, 18)

    You’re trying to sell a deal to the T’Wolves and appease Kobe. In the process, you’ve really explained why “the deal” in terms of T’Wolves/KG requirements, is unworkable–and not just for the Lakers.

    After years of trying to patch together a championship team around KG, the T’Wolves had to beg KG to reduce his annual salary. Even with the reduced KG salary, the T’Wolves couldn’t get the job done.

    The Lakers are prestructured around a “two superstar” model that can handle about $20 million for a second star. For KG, a little more.

    Our second star isn’t there any more, so his salary could be reconstructed with a little help. In other words, we’re a great fit

    Unfortunately, a KG trade triggers a “poison pill” bonus provision that bumps salary requirements to a lofty level that the T’Wolves could never have afforded. What magic would make it work for anyone else?

    Even next year, if KG opts out, the problem becomes worse: who has $28 million of cap space to spend on one free agent player? The asking price will come down.

    If KG really wants to go to the Lakers and be part of a championship team, he needs to waive the poison pill–and Minnesota needs to be realistic about what it can/can’t get in trade. It would be the same for everyone else.

    As you’ve shown but not suggested, we can’t realistically trade all three bigs, and probably couldn’t trade a guard unless we got one back. Gutted this way, with no money to bring in replacements, how could we field a championship team?

    Sifferent superstars at closer to $20 million–that wouldn’t force us to gut our team look better and better. They’re out there.

  68. from ArizonaRepublic.com:

    The Suns agreed Thursday night to a trade that will send swingman James Jones to Portland as part of the deal that had the Trail Blazers buying Phoenix’s 24th pick for $3 million.

    Portland is allowed to take a player without returning one because they acquired a trade exception in the Zach Randolph deal with the New York Knicks.

    The deal, confirmed by two league sources, may not become official until next week because of pending physicals.

    The move is another one to help reduce the Suns’ luxury tax next year. Jones was slated to make $2.9 million this season and $3.15 million in the final year of his contract in 2008-09.

    Jones, 26, played the past two seasons for the Suns in the role of long-distance shooter and sound defender. He played 18.1 minutes per game last season and averaged 6.4 points on 36.8 percent field-goal shooting, including 37.8 percent on three-pointers.

    WHAAAATT??

    Kerr is even worst than Kupchack or Pirtchard is god
    we need front office moves…

  69. Grant Hill to the Suns?
    ==============

    Arizona Republic – 06/30 – 6:11 AM EST
    Now that it is clear that Kevin Garnett will not be in Arizona, the Phoenix Suns are shifting their attention to trying to lure Grant Hill to the desert, the Arizona Republic is reporting.

    The Suns will try to sell Hill on the lovely weather, team chemistry, relaxed practices and friendly atmosphere, but will have only a veteran’s minimum contract to put on the table ($1.2 million, $770,610 which would count against the cap). Other teams can offer a lot more money (Toronto, Orlando) while others can offer more than the Suns and offer a similar or better chance at success (Detroit, San Antonio).

    Hill has let Phoenix know for years he was interested in playing here. Sources confirm he was in the Valley last weekend, although both sides swear there was no contact between player and team. When asked if he felt the Suns or the Spurs were a better fit, Hill told ESPN radio he’d choose the Suns

  70. News ..

    Lakers turned down a trade request from Phoenix that would have brought four-time All-Star forward Shawn Marion to Los Angeles for Odom and a second player to make the deal work financially. But the Lakers balked at that deal, instead offering Kwame Brown, which went nowhere.

  71. halelouia ..

    The Lakers can breathe easier. They are no longer paying Brian Grant.

    His contract finally expires tonight .. wooofff.

  72. LAKERS FREE AGENTS
    G Aaron McKie

    C Chris Mihm

    G Smush Parker

    F Luke Walton
    LAKERS UNDER CONTRACT
    The following Lakers are signed through at least next season:

    Pos.; Player; Salary

    G; Kobe Bryant; $19.5 million

    F; Lamar Odom; $13.3 million

    C; Kwame Brown; $9.1 million

    F; Vladimir Radmanovic; $5.6 million

    F; Brian Cook; $3.5 million

    C; Andrew Bynum; $2.2 million

    G; Sasha Vujacic; $1.8 million

    G; Maurice Evans; $1.7 million

    G; Jordan Farmar; $1 million

    F; Ronny Turiaf; $770;000
    TOP NBA FREE AGENTS
    Register NBA writer Kevin Ding ranks the top 10 players set to become unrestricted free agents tonight:

    Player (last club); Pos.; Age; Comment

    Rashard Lewis (Sea); F; 27; Orlando-bound? Sign-and-trade?

    Vince Carter (NJ); G; 30; Will sign extension with Nets

    Chauncey Billups (Det); G; 30; Steady leader unlikely to bolt

    Gerald Wallace (Cha); F; 24; Can Michael Jordan keep him?

    Mo Williams (Mil); G; 24; Energetic, high-scoring point guard

    Grant Hill (Orl); F; 34; Speculation is a Detroit return

    Steve Blake (Den); G; 27; Mindset is defense and sharing the ball

    Jamaal Magloire (Por); C; 29; 2004 All-Star has big upside

    Jason Kapono (Mia); F; 26; UCLA product is this year’s Radmanovic

    Luke Walton (LAL); F; 27; San Diego native loves Cali

  73. Renato Afonso June 30, 2007 at 9:22 am

    How did this go under the radar for so long…

    Trading Kwame+Bynum+Cook for Gasol (maybe +first rounder from LA next year) would be a perfect fit for both teams.

    Memphis a core of young players developing, and Bynum could develop with them. A core of Conley, Miller, Gay, Warrick and Bynum would be interesting to see in about three years from now, specially with the decline of the Spurs and Suns. And Kwame gives them a defensive presence for a couple of years before going after someone like Brand in the 2009 free-agent pool. If I was the GM in Memphis, I would totally do this, since you don’t have a fanbase to disappoint…

    This trade would leave the Lakers with the following roster, assuming we sign Mihm and Walton.

    PG: Farmar, Javaris
    SG. Kobe, Evans, Sasha
    SF: Walton, Radman
    PF: Odom, Turiaf
    C: Gasol, Mihm, Gasol

    That’s a 12 player roster with Sue in the development league.

    I’m a believer that Radman will regain his shooting touch and will be most helpful the next season, and if (that’s a big IF) the core can remain healthy, we will be contenders alongside the Spurs, Suns and Jazz.

    If Kupchak could pull it off, at the same time he gets Gasol in, he could go after a veteran PG for the MLE… But that’s just me saying.

    Question to all of you (Kurt and mates here at FB&G): Would such a trade (if possible) keep Kobe around and happy? I really don’t care about him, I care about winning (although part of me wants him shipped ASAP).

    NOTE TO Lakerfan: Dude, this is a place where people who actually know a thing or two about basketball come to discuss all matters related to basketball, with the Lakers being the common subject between us. Some of us live overseas (me, xavier, warren) , some live right there in LA. And we all respect each other’s opinion… (yep, we even love JohnR, but just sometimes…)
    I’ve been a regular reader here and this is the first time I actually wish someone would get kicked out of this website.

    Next time try saying something like “I really dislike Farmar’s shooting and D, so I think we should keep Javaris” and it would be discussed in a proper way. Saying that Nash taught him a lesson is no argument (2-time MVP?).
    Try to show some basketball knowledge and respect and you’ll be respected. Keep insulting and using that kind of language and we will all treat you like the kid you are.

  74. 74. Im still laughing at “yep, we even love JohnR”

    Forum B&G wouldn’t be the same without him…

    and about trading for Pau Gasol, how could I reject my Barcelona’s Hometown fella?
    but I don’t know, he’s still young and Iavaroni likes him…
    maybe if he pushes out
    thats the only way

    dont count on having younger Gasol next year in LA
    I strongly believe he’ll stay for 1 final year in Spain

  75. Drrayeye–

    I admit my thoughts are from the perspective of one trying to appease Kobe and land KG. I’m a Kobe homer. I admit it. So, I’m always far, far from objective.

    You make a good point that it is hard to build around superstars with too much salary and that Minnesota failed to do so with KG. I agree we would have to essentially gut our frontline depth to have any shot at Garnett, and this might leave us too thin to get past the Spurs and Suns. So, we need to be careful and make sure we have a bare minimum of helpful pieces in place to fill out the roster.

    However, I do think our situation is distinguishable from what we saw with KG in Minnesota. That team failed because McHale (both through mind numbing incompetence and bad luck) failed to find a second and third star to help KG. For all of KG’s virtues, he is not an accomplished go to scorer and he failed to carry the team offensively at crunch time. The Lakers already have the second star and go-to scorer in place in Kobe. So, we don’t have to scamper around trying to find big talent to help KG with a bloated salary cap — the second superstar is in place. Our problem is more about sacrificing depth and finding adequate role players. But, that is still several steps beyond where Minnesota ever got to. Given Kobe’s unhappiness, his lack of trade value, and the fact that you at least have a shot to contend with Kobe-KG, I think you have to overpay if the option is on the table.

    I see no difference between bringing in a star who makes 20M or 26M. Either way we are well over the cap, into tax territory, and limited to our midlevel exception for free agents. It’s really just a tax issue. We are also in a better situation revenues wise than the Twolves and should be able to pay more tax.

    All of this assumes Mitch’s ability to find decent role players for cheap and Buss’s willingness to pay big taxes. So, I admit bringing on KG would be a frightening risk.

  76. May I be the evil one who points out GS could use their exception to sign Darko to a front-loaded contract(say $9.9,$9.5,$9.1)that Orlando might not match,wait the appropriate time and include him in package for KG.

    I also think there is way too much wishful thinking that a Kobe-KG pairing w/whatever is leftover is going to compete for a title. Shaq-Kobe couldn’t get it done,Yao-T-Mac haven’t,Nash-Stoudemire(w/Marion!) haven’t. In the West you need 3 studs,a solid role player and a deep/productive bench. Spurs-Duncan,Ginobli,Parker and Bowen. Jazz-Boozer,Kirelenko,Williams and Okur. Dallas has 2 and a bench,Phoenix has the starters but needs to rebuild it’s bench.
    Assuming all it took was Odom,Bynum,Farmar to get KG,the Lakers are left w/no PG,Kwame at Center and either Walton or Radmanovic at SF-have fun watching them try to stop T-Mac,Carmelo,Durant,etc. Putting your faith in Mihm to last a whole season seems rather risky to me. There is also the little matter of KG expressing a desire to go to Phoenix above all else. How happy will he be in his second-or 3 or 4 for all we know-choice? Paul Shirley’s take on the two-based on his limited camp runs w/both teams-does not bode well based on their personalities.(Yeah,it’s one opinion formed on limited contact,but his opinion does track w/whatever else I’ve read,watched on TV.)

    Finally,I think too many are panicking over Kobe’e statements about he wants out. His real beef is with Mitch and little Buss. Promote little Buss to a position where he has nothing real to do and announce Mitch is retiring due to medical reasons,start adding a few solid role players and wait the season out,spreading the word about when healthy last yr the team was good,yada-yada-yada. If Kobe pouts thru the yr,send him home and trade him next yr when there are high picks to be had.

  77. O’neal and Garnett are likely the two players the Lakers are going to try to acquire before the season starts. Gasol is a third name that has been circulating but he is much more likely to stay in Memphis than JO or KG are too stay in Indiana and Minnesota. Gasol is not in a contract year, he has 5 years left, so his request is not as pressing a matter for Memphis as moving Kg and JO are since they can opt out after next season. Gasol would be a nice fit for the lakers though if indeed he did get traded; it might even be better than getting either KG or JO. First his contract (12.4 M) is a a lot easier to swallow than either JO’s or KG’s. Plus the Lakers would not have to give up as much to acquire him. Bynum of course would have to be included, and Kwame seems the most likely to be involved to match salaries. However, trading Gasol does not make sense for Memphis for a number of reason. First they are not in a spot where they have to completely rebuild their team like memphis and Indiana are. so why trade your best player. Secondly, trading Gasol for young talent and expiring contracts like Minnesota is trying to do does not help Memphis out. Memphis would still have 3 Big unfavorable contracts for a team that is trying to rebuild (if if fact they were): Andre Miller (7.6 M, 4 yrs), Stoudamire (4.1 M, 3 yrs) and Cardinal (5.4 M, 4 yrs). Because of these three contracts trading Gasol for an expiring contract such as Browns would not give them the kind of cap space recquired to rebuild. If you assume about 7-8% increase in Cap each year that would set the cap for the 08/09 season at about 61 million. Trading Gasol for Browd would give them only about 7M in cap space (assuming they resign they younger player players and make not additional moves). Stoudamire is pretty old and might retire before his contract is up in 3 years; I would assume if he retires that his contract comes off the books, but I am not sure. If they are looking to completely rebuild that would not give them much Cap space to work with. Though a Conley Jr, Rudy Gay, Bynum trio might be impressive in a couple of years, it makes much more sense to hold onto Gasol. Conley is not ready to be a major contributor right away but I think he will be in a year to two. Gasol is still young so waiting a year or two for Conley and making smaller moves makes much more sense for Memphis than trading Gasol. So I don’t believe he will be traded, unless he really pushes the issue.

    I used to go to getgarnett.com when I first found out about a co0uple of weeks ago. When I first went there, there were some people that actually had intelligent ideas about trade scenarios and would intelligently discuss. But now it is just a bunch of immature people calling names and making ridiculous,unknowledgeable trade scenarios. So this site when I found it was a breath of fresh air. So I would like to thank your for keeping this a place where mature fans can come discuss their ideas.

    Wow I wrote alot. I’m just trying to put off cleaning my house.

  78. Supposedly Dallas is now talking to Minn about Garnett.

  79. Reed (76),

    I agree that the T’Wolves experiences with KG don’t foretell the Lakers for many reasons–but they are a cautionary tale. Such experiences suggest that overpaying on the front end may have already doomed the Lakers from ever achieving the championship they seek. After all, McHale is not the only NBA GM that has made blunders.

    I think a Laker deal for KG on much better terms than you suggest is possible. If your conjectures are correct, and KG can’t go back for another year, I think the Laker deal may be his only real deal KG has. No one else has the money/players/need.

    Phoenix doesn’t need Garnett. They need role players and cap space. Garnett doesn’t appear to want to go anywhere else, but I’m not sure who else would go all out for him anyway.

    Players are human beings, and the Lakers have worked very hard to find players that get along–and they do. They also have worked very hard to teach all current players to play the triangle. It takes about a year. The Lakers would want a minimum number of players traded to preserve Laker identity–not a maximum. A trade of Kwame and Lamar for KG already meets both tradition and finances without the poison pill (2 starters and about $22 million).

    Lamar is a very good standin for KG, and Kwame has an expiring contract of $9 million if the T’Wolves don’t want to keep him. If the T’Wolves want to exchange long contracts for shorter/cheaper ones, Sasha for Jaric might work.

    The difference between $22 and $28 for KG is huge for the Lakers for a number of reasons–especially if it is tied to longer term contracts for other players and other acquisitions. If Kobe opted out, they would only be able to spend up to the cap to replace him. If they were $3 million over, they’d have $17 million to replace Kobe. If they were $15 million over, they’d only have $5 million. To avoid getting little or nothing, they might agree to take on players that they don’t really want, leading to a replay of the Shaq situation.

    It should be in KG’s (and Kobe’s) interest to keep Garnett’s salary realistic. Garnett would almost certainly get more than an extra $6 million just from endorsements anyway.

    KG’s situation is really far more desperate than the Lakers. The Lakers have more options. Why should the Lakers be making all the concessions?

  80. 80-KG’s situation is really far more desperate than the Lakers. The Lakers have more options. Why should the Lakers be making all the concessions?

    ____

    They shouldn’t be, but I disagree:

    1. Garnett can leave Minnesota after the season if he wants to.
    2. He can still get traded at the deadline even if it does not happen now.

    As to the Lakers’ “desperation” I recall an interview with Buss, after the Lakers had traded Shaq and Kobe’s trial was pending. Buss said that the thought of 21-61 and a full rebuild was “depressing.” Kobe Bryant, of course, is who prevents that. To me, as a fan, what is MORE depressing is 42-40 and being stuck in nowhereland between low lottery picks and first-round spankings. Although I am STRONGLY in the camp that Kobe Bryant should have aired his complaints in private, I don’t really see much wrong with what he said, content-wise. The Lakers seem directionless, as happens when you focus on getting rid of talent (Shaq) rather than on acquiring it, and while I may be blaming Kupchak for some things that are really the Busses, I have not, starting with the early moves for Samaki Walker and Mitch Richmond, seen a lot of evidence that Kupchak is either a great judge or creative procurer of talent.

    As to the Garnett saga, I am personally not objective about it. I admire Garnett as a player, love watching him , would love to see him in purple and gold and would trade anybody on the team (and draft picks) except Bryant to make it happen. That said, with all the respect due for Reed’s posts, I think someone else–Golden State, Dallas, Boston–will put together a sequence of non-linear moves and get
    Garnett. I don’t think McHale–or most NBA people–think as highly of Lamar Odom, particularly at 14M a year–as many here seem to and Kupchak, as the Shaq trade showed and Reed pointed out, seems to be a linear thinker.

    I do think the Lakers will wind up with Pau Gasol or Jermaine O”Neal, however, and I think if they do, they should roll the dice and try to add Ron Artest as well.

  81. End this nightmare. Buss needs to hire Jerry West as GM and give him an ownership interest in the team and then let him work his magic. He will get the players we need built around Kobe.

    It will be the best money spent in the offseason. If Buss cares about the Lakers as much as his pocketbook, he will ante up.

    If hes not careful, we are falling fast in the West. and of right now, I dont even think we are a playoff team. As sad as it is, id rather fall to the bottom and get a top pick then continue to add meaningless pieces so we can stay a borderline playoff team every year.

  82. drrayeye: thank you for your posts. This is what I’ve said a couple times and I’m pretty sick on the endless defenders of Kobe when really, if the Lakers have a position which is fairly strong (which they do now, with some pieces, and other players like Chicago and AZ pushing themselves out of the sweepstakes for him) why should they prostrate themselves for Kobe? Kobe is an amazing player, the most talented in the league…but he’s still just one player and his wishes should not trump the interest of the team as a whole. Anyway, thanks for taking a stand for rationality, as I believe Mitch has done too. Mitch still has cards to play Laker fans, so don’t despair. Just because he hasn’t done anything-sometimes it’s better-in fact many times it’s better-to do nothing than to make a selfish, rushed, move.

  83. please remember me when jordan farmar turns out not to be better than Javaris

  84. Ok lakerfan,
    we will! you will be the first person I think of

  85. Renato Afonso June 30, 2007 at 5:18 pm

    78. I made that scenario under the assumption that Gasol is really pushing for a trade, due to his last comments. If he doesn’t force Memphis hand, then he’s going to stay put…

    Remember one thing, the guy is used to win with the colors of Spain (yep, I watched him beat the US in the 1999 youth world championships… Portugal was last…) and he realizes that his opportunity to win a ring is over in three or four years. So he might be forcing his hand within the Grizzlies organization more than we know. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking.. lol

    Bottomline: Garnett and JO are forcing their way out. If Gasol does the same, then Gasol should be the #1 target, not Garnett nor JO.

  86. Stephen– So how exactly does that work with Darko? If GS is open about the trade, there is no way he (or any self-respecting free agent) agrees to end up in Minnesota. If they keep things under the table, aren’t they committing the basketball equivalent of recruiting an employee to the Hawaii office with the intention of sending them to Tajikistan? “Come play with Baron, Jackson, Ellis, Harrington in Nellie ball. Oh, wait, you’re really going to Minnesota to join Hudson, Ricky Davis, and Marko Jaric in sub-zero temperatures. Enjoy.” Not sure that flies. In any case, a free agent acquired via sign and trade can’t be retraded until December 15. This doesn’t seem to work.

    I fear Boston more than anyone in stealing Garnett. Perhaps KG changes his mind with Allen on board and Phoenix out of the running, and Boston sends Jefferson, Green, and Ratliff’s contract. Can’t beat that.

    Drrayeye– I hope you are right about Garnett’s price, but it would shock me. I’d bet John R’s small pinky that we can’t get him for less than Odom, Bynum, and Kwame.

  87. Reed- I agree. I think Boston has more of a chance of acquiring KG than GS does. If Minnesota is really intent on trading KG, than they probably will not do any better than what Boston has to offer. But it would depend on KG and pocket book of Bostons owners. They would have to be willing to pay an extension to KG and he would have to be willing to take one. I think Ainge might try it though. They would be really thin apart from Pierce, KG and Allen, but in the East you could probably just start those three players and have a legitimate chance of winning. However, I think trading for Allen was Ainge’s last attempt at keeping his job.

    Drrayeye-I hope you are right as well. But Minnesota seems intent on holding onto KG and just letting him opt out unless they get a package that they like.

  88. If I was Minn I’d offer KG to Suns for Thomas,Marion and the Altlanta 2008 first and the Phoenix 2008 first.
    Saves Phoenix $2mil+ this yr that will help make up for scrubs filling out roster. Next yr KG costs $5mil more,but that is offset by whatever Atlanta pick would draw in rookie salary as well as near $mil the Suns pick would get. And if KG opts out,there are alot of decent to good big men who will be free agents in 2008.
    Minn gets chance at high pick w/Atlanta,cap relief next yr and if Marion opts out,they’ll be over $15mil under cap. Roy,Davis,Brewer,Marion and center by committee would be competitive,esp if they run.
    I’d also try and swap Jaric for Snow from Cleveland,more cap relief in couple yrs,as well as vet leadership for young team.

  89. Reed,
    Darko wants minutes-as well as a nice salary. He felt he sat on the bench in Detroit long enough. One of reasons Hill got fired in Orlando was because he didn’t play Darko enough,as well as trying to make Darko a low post beast,whereas Darko likes shooting from outside.Orlando wants to keep him,but not at any price.
    A team can use an exemption to do a sign/trade for a free agent,but it won’t be until Dec 15 before the player can be traded again. So theoretically Golden State could use the TE to sign a free agent for Minn and just wait til Dec 15 to make the KG trade.(Or even use it to get a player Minn wants-for use or cap relief. Players under contract acquired in a trade can be retraded reasonably quickly.Say the TE to Phoenix for Thomas,or even LA for Kwame! Would put the Lakers under cap even w/resigned Walton and Turaif.)
    I just don’t see Minn trading Garnet w/out getting at least a high draft pick,and they may agree to wait until Jan/Feb to see how things shake out.

  90. Was wondering when you were gonna step in Jones to defend your boy. The thing is, no one’s arguing with lakerfan about Javaris having a higher ceiling. The thing is, how good Crittenton’s gonna be in 3 years is not what a lot of fans, and more importantly Kobe, are worried about. If you watched the UNLV tourney game, you know Crittenton’s got a long way to go before he can be a decision-maker at this level. If possible we should cash in on his stock while it’s high to a team in need of quality point down the road. That said, Kurt and Reed are right that if the right trade comes along, and they wanted Farmar instead, I’d understand.

    Thanks for explaining how the TE works Reed/Stephen. I’m really hoping the W’s use it to pursue Gerald Wallace rather than gutting their team for KG. And after watching more Brandan Wright footage, I’m extremely excited for the break opportunities he coule create with his shot-blocking. Sorry for the sports bigamy, but living in the Bay Area for four years I couldn’t help but become a secondary fan. That said, I’m still bitter that they took my boy Marco right before us. The more I see of him, the more excited I get about his game. One of the most exciting teams in the league got even more exciting with Wright and Belinelli. This kid plays without a conscience and I like it:
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=pNxZ4_O8R8M

  91. chopperdave:

    3.5 years in the Bay for me. Still a FB&G purist though :)

  92. Lakerfan: I don’t think many people here, at least from my experience, care who is better on the Lakers, as long as the Lakers win. If both guys play to their abilities, the Lakers will be unbeatable which is what we all want. I think that’s the most important thing.

  93. Robinred,

    As you may recall, the thing that started the drama was an announced Garnett trade between the T’Wolves and Celtics.

    Garnett didn’t say “no,” he said “@#%& NO.”

    I was born not too far from Minneapolis and went to school not too far from Boston.

    I moved to Socal first chance I could.

    I understand why KG already has a house in Malibu. In fact, he’s here right now!

    Need I remind you KG doesn’t have a ranch in Texas or a boat on ‘Frisco bay?

    I don’t think that Commisioner Stern would get upset if KG came to LA.

    Those who sell products he endorses will party for at least a week.

    Company representatives will be pounding on his door in Malibu with new endorsement opportunities.

    Kobe will call up to challenge KG to a little one on one.

    Phil Jackson will send KG a book on the triangle.

    Kurt might even drive by his Malibu house tooting his horn and waving something historical that is Blue and Gold–once again reuniting a man rescued from the the Great Lakes with a teams still called the Lakers.

    Of Course, the Nooch might sneak in front of the Lakers with a better offer and steal KG away . . . . .

  94. warren (philippines) July 1, 2007 at 1:34 am

    I am looking hard at the situation at Memphis. I did one post over this at Lakers Topbuzz.

    http://lakers.topbuzz.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-2926.html#39605

    I must say they were pretty unlucky on how the lottery turned out. They might want to consider a full rebuild to keep pace with Conley’s development.

  95. 92) Don’t worry, I still bleed purple. But I might not be able to help going to a couple Warriors games this year and cheering just a little.

  96. Javaris will be a STAR! An absolute star.

  97. warren (94)- I hope you are right. I made a post earlier trying to point out that if Memphis wanted to rebuild they had to get rid of Miller’s or at least one other big contract besides Gasol’s. I never tried trading for both Miller and Gasol which works for both teams. I think with that line up the lakers could contend in the West and Memphis would be in a good spot to rebuild. Memphis would have good trading assets left as well because they would be overloaded at PG position. If they were seriously considering trading him before the end of the season then they might consider it now as well.

  98. At least I hope we can all agree that sasha vujacic was a total disaster

  99. The draft picks of Javaris Critterton and Marc Gasol were solid. I really didn’t understand the Sun Yue pick, when solid wing players with defensive skills like Derrick Byars, Reshawn Terry and DJ Strawberry were available there. I don’t think ethnic population in LA should drive your draft trategy.

    As for trades for players like KG, O’neal or Gasol, I think they have to do something.