Comments on: Pre Training Camp Thoughts http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/ A Lakers Blog. Thoughts, reflections, and the odd rant on the Los Angeles Lakers and the NBA (even the Clippers). Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:18:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Warren Wee Lim http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-3/#comment-248525 Warren Wee Lim Mon, 01 Oct 2007 02:21:22 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-248525 We have to admit, other than Kwame being a decent-enough defender and a huge expiring contract, he sits next to untradeable. However, there might be some teams that will be willing to take on him for a mere 1-yr rental and let him come off the books next season. Such teams are those that are also trying to part with unnecessary veterans that hamper the rebuilding process - such teams and players are the ones we need as well. I use the example of Seattle and Minnesota. After blowing up the whole team by the respective blockbusters, these teams are set for the future. 4 years wouldn't be so far to see knowing that Al Jefferson is prepared to dominate and Durant seems NBA-ready with batteries included. So with this, both teams could use the additional cap space for more cap flex. Assuming they do not mind dealing with us, Minny still has some veterans with contracts spanning 3-4 years in guaranteed dough. LA could explore this willingness to move some players in exchange for a "mere" expiring contract in Kwame and Sasha and Evans - Blount (C), Howard (PF), Hassell (SF), Davis (SG), Jaric (PG). As for Seattle, Wilcox for me seems promising at PF/C. Wilkins also interests me but we are somewhat G/F loaded already. Perhaps Ridnour can be had and be swung to another team like Miami for Haslem (another decent 4). The 3-way looks like this: LA gets: Haslem and Wilcox Seattle gets: Kwame + 08 2nd from LA and Doleac Miami gets: Brian Cook and Ridnour These are merely options. Even without a Marion trade we still get better. Much more so if we do the Marion trade then Cook would be replaced by Vlade Radman or a combo of Sasha and Evans... We have to admit, other than Kwame being a decent-enough defender and a huge expiring contract, he sits next to untradeable.

However, there might be some teams that will be willing to take on him for a mere 1-yr rental and let him come off the books next season. Such teams are those that are also trying to part with unnecessary veterans that hamper the rebuilding process – such teams and players are the ones we need as well.

I use the example of Seattle and Minnesota. After blowing up the whole team by the respective blockbusters, these teams are set for the future. 4 years wouldn’t be so far to see knowing that Al Jefferson is prepared to dominate and Durant seems NBA-ready with batteries included. So with this, both teams could use the additional cap space for more cap flex.

Assuming they do not mind dealing with us, Minny still has some veterans with contracts spanning 3-4 years in guaranteed dough. LA could explore this willingness to move some players in exchange for a “mere” expiring contract in Kwame and Sasha and Evans – Blount (C), Howard (PF), Hassell (SF), Davis (SG), Jaric (PG).

As for Seattle, Wilcox for me seems promising at PF/C. Wilkins also interests me but we are somewhat G/F loaded already. Perhaps Ridnour can be had and be swung to another team like Miami for Haslem (another decent 4).

The 3-way looks like this:
LA gets: Haslem and Wilcox
Seattle gets: Kwame + 08 2nd from LA and Doleac
Miami gets: Brian Cook and Ridnour

These are merely options. Even without a Marion trade we still get better. Much more so if we do the Marion trade then Cook would be replaced by Vlade Radman or a combo of Sasha and Evans…

]]> By: Stephen http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-3/#comment-248125 Stephen Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:28:58 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-248125 Warren, I think an overall better deal would be Kwame,Evans a second and cash,or an 09 First,to Seattle for Thomas,West and Wilkins. Wilcox is another talent tease. He has it,but won't use it game in,game out. Thomas is a decent vet PF w/an expiring contract who can give solid minutes,freeing the C for Mihm and Bynum,and who can play some C if small ball is needed. Delonte West is the kind of PG Phil likes,big,smart,plays good D,hits the 3pt shot at an acceptable ave,has the ability to score big if needed.Allows Fisher to come off bench where he's matched up against other team's second PG so Fisher's D is not such a liability. Damien Wilkins plays D,passes decently and can score on the drive.Has a much better all-around game than Evans and gives Phil somebody off bench who will play D on the quicker SG/SFs.Played very well when injuries put him into starting SF role in Seattle. BTW,I'd do this even w/out a trade for Marion-or Kirilenko. A lineup of West,Kobe,Wilkins,Lamar and Mihm would be much quicker,much better defensively. These guys won't make any All-Star teams,but they are the kind of solid,productive NBA players the Lakers need to start getting so that when they add the second-or third-elite player,they don't have to waste a couple of yrs building a supporting cast. Warren,
I think an overall better deal would be Kwame,Evans a second and cash,or an 09 First,to Seattle for Thomas,West and Wilkins. Wilcox is another talent tease. He has it,but won’t use it game in,game out.
Thomas is a decent vet PF w/an expiring contract who can give solid minutes,freeing the C for Mihm and Bynum,and who can play some C if small ball is needed.
Delonte West is the kind of PG Phil likes,big,smart,plays good D,hits the 3pt shot at an acceptable ave,has the ability to score big if needed.Allows Fisher to come off bench where he’s matched up against other team’s second PG so Fisher’s D is not such a liability.
Damien Wilkins plays D,passes decently and can score on the drive.Has a much better all-around game than Evans and gives Phil somebody off bench who will play D on the quicker SG/SFs.Played very well when injuries put him into starting SF role in Seattle.
BTW,I’d do this even w/out a trade for Marion-or Kirilenko. A lineup of West,Kobe,Wilkins,Lamar and Mihm would be much quicker,much better defensively.

These guys won’t make any All-Star teams,but they are the kind of solid,productive NBA players the Lakers need to start getting so that when they add the second-or third-elite player,they don’t have to waste a couple of yrs building a supporting cast.

]]> By: Chise http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-3/#comment-248052 Chise Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:06:37 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-248052 The way Warren breaks it down there is kinda hard to argue with. If the trade was Cook/LO for Marion/Strawberry, and you were able to turn Kwame into a Wilcox type player, that might not be such a bad trade. That's all contingent on getting the 4 though. I'd still prefer to keep Odom and look for another 4 (Wilcox, PJ Brown, etc.) That said, I like what Stephen said as well. If you get Marion, I wouldn't give him more than a 2-3 year extension in the 14 mill per range. He's not worth 17 and definitely not 20. If he balks at that, let him walk. If him and Kwame come off at the same time, that's a lot of cap room. The way Warren breaks it down there is kinda hard to argue with. If the trade was Cook/LO for Marion/Strawberry, and you were able to turn Kwame into a Wilcox type player, that might not be such a bad trade. That’s all contingent on getting the 4 though. I’d still prefer to keep Odom and look for another 4 (Wilcox, PJ Brown, etc.)

That said, I like what Stephen said as well. If you get Marion, I wouldn’t give him more than a 2-3 year extension in the 14 mill per range. He’s not worth 17 and definitely not 20. If he balks at that, let him walk. If him and Kwame come off at the same time, that’s a lot of cap room.

]]> By: Warren Wee Lim http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-3/#comment-247415 Warren Wee Lim Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:34:31 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-247415 This is why my pen's ink is reserved for deals like this... First, the Suns have the "urge" to trade the Matrix for some Locker-room peace and most of all financial flexibility. Not to mention that Odom will be a downgrade they would be very much be willing to make (if its a downgrade at all for them and their system). Second, Marion offers cap flex for the Lakers too. While he may seek that sick 65M extension, I think being the TRUE 2nd option in LA, he can be talked down to a "reasonable" extension. One that pays 50M in 3 years. Remember, early next year, Lamar will ask for that extension as well. It wont be the Max, but it will be nearer. If we could do that with Marion, why do it for Odom? Third, Marion gives the Lakers a legit 2nd option to ease Kobe's burden on offense. Kobe and Phil will sign on this deal knowing what Marion brings to the table. Kobe can be the playmaker once more and Marion can be the recipient of all those passes and shots that Odom and Kwame will normally pass up on. Fourth, Marion gives the Lakers a chance to play Bynum. As it has been said, we can revisit the "Kwame at 4" project or flip him to another team for a legit PF - giving Mihm a crack at the center once more, with Bynum now having a chance to show the world his stuff. I can always find many teams most-willing to take on Kwame in exchange for a decent 4. One would be Sacramento's Kenny Thomas or Seattle's Chris Wilcox. Fifth, this will effectively give the Lakers 2 very good players off the bench - Walton and Fisher. Luke will come off as the team playmaker / facilitator as Fish comes off for Farmar for those meaningful minutes. Sixth, I bet a crack at CWebb or PJ Brown will be easier to negotiate to play the 4. Both are true PFs and are veterans of the league. Seventh, the price difference between Odom and Marion is negated by the fact that we would possibly get rid of Cook's dead weight on the process. That for me, is a significant change in the payroll. Spin him off in the deal and acquire Strawberry in the deal as well. That might work well. And as for Marion fitting in the TRI, I don't think basketball-smart players will have more than a month to acquaint themselves of this system. The camp and the whole of November will be enough for the adjustment. By no means is he a Slug. P.S. The Suns will be a better team too. I think us getting better is STILL more important than being concerned of how good they will become. As long as we can get out of our playoff woes, I frankly don't care how the Suns do. This is why my pen’s ink is reserved for deals like this…

First, the Suns have the “urge” to trade the Matrix for some Locker-room peace and most of all financial flexibility. Not to mention that Odom will be a downgrade they would be very much be willing to make (if its a downgrade at all for them and their system).

Second, Marion offers cap flex for the Lakers too. While he may seek that sick 65M extension, I think being the TRUE 2nd option in LA, he can be talked down to a “reasonable” extension. One that pays 50M in 3 years. Remember, early next year, Lamar will ask for that extension as well. It wont be the Max, but it will be nearer. If we could do that with Marion, why do it for Odom?

Third, Marion gives the Lakers a legit 2nd option to ease Kobe’s burden on offense. Kobe and Phil will sign on this deal knowing what Marion brings to the table. Kobe can be the playmaker once more and Marion can be the recipient of all those passes and shots that Odom and Kwame will normally pass up on.

Fourth, Marion gives the Lakers a chance to play Bynum. As it has been said, we can revisit the “Kwame at 4″ project or flip him to another team for a legit PF – giving Mihm a crack at the center once more, with Bynum now having a chance to show the world his stuff.

I can always find many teams most-willing to take on Kwame in exchange for a decent 4. One would be Sacramento’s Kenny Thomas or Seattle’s Chris Wilcox.

Fifth, this will effectively give the Lakers 2 very good players off the bench – Walton and Fisher. Luke will come off as the team playmaker / facilitator as Fish comes off for Farmar for those meaningful minutes.

Sixth, I bet a crack at CWebb or PJ Brown will be easier to negotiate to play the 4. Both are true PFs and are veterans of the league.

Seventh, the price difference between Odom and Marion is negated by the fact that we would possibly get rid of Cook’s dead weight on the process. That for me, is a significant change in the payroll. Spin him off in the deal and acquire Strawberry in the deal as well. That might work well.

And as for Marion fitting in the TRI, I don’t think basketball-smart players will have more than a month to acquaint themselves of this system. The camp and the whole of November will be enough for the adjustment. By no means is he a Slug.

P.S. The Suns will be a better team too. I think us getting better is STILL more important than being concerned of how good they will become. As long as we can get out of our playoff woes, I frankly don’t care how the Suns do.

]]> By: Stephen http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-3/#comment-246841 Stephen Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:43:10 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-246841 Craig, We don't know what the revenues are for the Buss family off the Lakers to know what they can and can't afford. We do know that their last local broadcasting rights deal was big enough to boost the MLE a couple million dollars. I can think of several reasons to make a Lamar for Marion deal. 1) It makes Kobe happy as it shows team is willing to make moves to get better. 2)The Lamar era has not been successful so far. If it's time to move Lamar,Marion gives the most right-now talent. 3)It solidifies the line-up. Right now the Lakers don't know where to start Lamar and as a result don't have either a starting SF or PF. Marion would be a SF,concentrating Laker efferts to straighten out their big situation. 4)It would open up trade possibilities later in the season as well as the possibility of huge cap room next summer. Tell Shawn they aren't extending and he exercises his option. Combine w/Kwame,Evans and Sasha all expiring and the Lakers can be players in next Summers' deep FA class. Craig,
We don’t know what the revenues are for the Buss family off the Lakers to know what they can and can’t afford. We do know that their last local broadcasting rights deal was big enough to boost the MLE a couple million dollars.
I can think of several reasons to make a Lamar for Marion deal.
1) It makes Kobe happy as it shows team is willing to make moves to get better.
2)The Lamar era has not been successful so far. If it’s time to move Lamar,Marion gives the most right-now talent.
3)It solidifies the line-up. Right now the Lakers don’t know where to start Lamar and as a result don’t have either a starting SF or PF. Marion would be a SF,concentrating Laker efferts to straighten out their big situation.
4)It would open up trade possibilities later in the season as well as the possibility of huge cap room next summer. Tell Shawn they aren’t extending and he exercises his option. Combine w/Kwame,Evans and Sasha all expiring and the Lakers can be players in next Summers’ deep FA class.

]]> By: Craig W. http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-3/#comment-246400 Craig W. Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:22:56 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-246400 Paul, You CANNOT run a business in the red for a number of years and remain in existence. The luxury tax finally brought Mark Cuban into line here and he has far, far more money than the Buss family. Marion AND Baron Davis - yikes! - you would have to print money to afford that for very long. Oh yes! If any of our youngsters pans out (and many observers think the Lakers have some good, young players) you would not be able to pay them. This quickly becomes New York toilet time. Paul,
You CANNOT run a business in the red for a number of years and remain in existence. The luxury tax finally brought Mark Cuban into line here and he has far, far more money than the Buss family.

Marion AND Baron Davis – yikes! – you would have to print money to afford that for very long.

Oh yes! If any of our youngsters pans out (and many observers think the Lakers have some good, young players) you would not be able to pay them. This quickly becomes New York toilet time.

]]> By: Paul http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-3/#comment-246309 Paul Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:12:15 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-246309 Salary cap or none. Get Marion, he's a better player. Furthermore, if you get Marion, we have a better chance of bringing of Webber on board for the veteran's minimum. Lastly, if Baron Davis still doesn't have an extension by the trade deadline, I'm sure we can get him for Kwame, Vald, and Fish. Now you have a starting lineup. Baron Davis, Kobe Bryant, Shawm Marion, Chris Weber, Andrew Bynum. Drew will do fine with these guys. Salary cap or none. Get Marion, he’s a better player. Furthermore, if you get Marion, we have a better chance of bringing of Webber on board for the veteran’s minimum. Lastly, if Baron Davis still doesn’t have an extension by the trade deadline, I’m sure we can get him for Kwame, Vald, and Fish. Now you have a starting lineup.

Baron Davis, Kobe Bryant, Shawm Marion, Chris Weber, Andrew Bynum.

Drew will do fine with these guys.

]]> By: Craig W. http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-3/#comment-245353 Craig W. Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:33:35 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-245353 We are making an assumption here that Phoenix will make this deal with the Lakers. From other blogs and articles I have read this is not considered the best deal Phoenix could make, should they want to trade Marion. It is not even in the top 10. As Odom has gotten older and his injury jinx continued, his perceived value has gone down. This may well not be Phoenix's position, but it is that of those looking in from the outside. Should Bynum continue to develop and Vlade come back to form - not very large ifs - we may need Odom's talents more than we perceive today. We are making an assumption here that Phoenix will make this deal with the Lakers. From other blogs and articles I have read this is not considered the best deal Phoenix could make, should they want to trade Marion. It is not even in the top 10. As Odom has gotten older and his injury jinx continued, his perceived value has gone down. This may well not be Phoenix’s position, but it is that of those looking in from the outside.

Should Bynum continue to develop and Vlade come back to form – not very large ifs – we may need Odom’s talents more than we perceive today.

]]> By: Mannie Jenkins http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-2/#comment-245257 Mannie Jenkins Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:28:26 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-245257 A- Odom's health is a really undeniable factor here B- Regardless of A, this is still going to look like it was the fault of the Lakers not pulling the trigger because they're being stingy even though the Suns are the ones that shoulda been wary. We can't win! (I'm saying stingy because that's how it'll look, not trying to dismiss the important salary cap considerations) A- Odom’s health is a really undeniable factor here

B- Regardless of A, this is still going to look like it was the fault of the Lakers not pulling the trigger because they’re being stingy even though the Suns are the ones that shoulda been wary.

We can’t win!

(I’m saying stingy because that’s how it’ll look, not trying to dismiss the important salary cap considerations)

]]> By: ryan http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/comment-page-2/#comment-244405 ryan Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:26:39 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/09/25/pre-training-camp-thoughts/#comment-244405 Sorry for the double post but just one more thought. Why would the suns do a trade of Odom for Marion. I would think that they could do much better if they were trading Marion. Maybe a deal with NJ. Marion for Jefferson + filler. Jefferson would fit in better in that system. The only reason that I can think of for why they would rather have Odom is that they think that he can relieve Nash of some play making responsibility, saving him more for the playoffs. Sorry for the double post but just one more thought. Why would the suns do a trade of Odom for Marion. I would think that they could do much better if they were trading Marion. Maybe a deal with NJ. Marion for Jefferson + filler. Jefferson would fit in better in that system. The only reason that I can think of for why they would rather have Odom is that they think that he can relieve Nash of some play making responsibility, saving him more for the playoffs.

]]>