Comments on: The Lakers “Chicken or the Egg” Problem http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/ A Lakers Blog. Thoughts, reflections, and the odd rant on the Los Angeles Lakers and the NBA (even the Clippers). Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:16:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Stephen http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-303153 Stephen Sat, 03 Nov 2007 00:25:36 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-303153 Kurt, Yeah I felt pretty stupid while typing in Livingston(esp as there was concern about him holding up before the draft and having left off Marquis Daniels because he can't stay on the court),but I used him as an example that there are more athletic playmakers than we may think. Kurt,
Yeah I felt pretty stupid while typing in Livingston(esp as there was concern about him holding up before the draft and having left off Marquis Daniels because he can’t stay on the court),but I used him as an example that there are more athletic playmakers than we may think.

]]> By: drrayeye http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-302962 drrayeye Fri, 02 Nov 2007 20:42:40 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-302962 Hi Bobby (61) You say, Trading Kobe may be difficult at the moment, but there’s a good chance he’s gone by the trade deadline and a nearly certain chance he’s gone before next season. I say, Maybe. Without all the complications of modern trading, the Lakers and Chicago might already have done a deal. If Kobe didn't have a trade veto and" kicker," he might already be in Atlanta! Then there is the Shaq precedent. I think that the Lakers now see this as something to avoid at nearly all costs. That's what makes him a "prisoner of his own device." When all of these factors clear, nobody may be left to trade with. If the Lakers do well this season, Kobe might end up being "sucked in" to reversing course and reviving his "Laker for life" mantra. If both the Lakers and Chicago are no better than average (clearly a possibility), the likelihood of a trade goes up--but not until next season. If Chicago does REALLY well and wins the NBA championship, Kobe may find himself alone on the dance floor. Hi Bobby (61)

You say,

Trading Kobe may be difficult at the moment, but there’s a good chance he’s gone by the trade deadline and a nearly certain chance he’s gone before next season.

I say,

Maybe.

Without all the complications of modern trading, the Lakers and Chicago might already have done a deal. If Kobe didn’t have a trade veto and” kicker,” he might already be in Atlanta!

Then there is the Shaq precedent. I think that the Lakers now see this as something to avoid at nearly all costs.

That’s what makes him a “prisoner of his own device.”

When all of these factors clear, nobody may be left to trade with.

If the Lakers do well this season, Kobe might end up being “sucked in” to reversing course and reviving his “Laker for life” mantra.

If both the Lakers and Chicago are no better than average (clearly a possibility), the likelihood of a trade goes up–but not until next season.

If Chicago does REALLY well and wins the NBA championship, Kobe may find himself alone on the dance floor.

]]> By: Craig W. http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-302811 Craig W. Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:02:23 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-302811 I think we all have to get off the habit of referring to our players as 'garbage fodder'. Just because we haven't made trades doesn't mean trades haven't been discussed. Perhaps what was offered wasn't what we needed. Both sides have to win in a trade and that is one reason there are not that many trades made - especially with stars. We have a number of young, developing, low end salarywise players; along with middle-of-the-road players; one good player, and one superstar. That is not a bad makeup for any team. The parts don't all fit the triangle the way Phil Jackson wants them to, but that is his job to adjust the offense/defense to fit his players. If he can't do that then that says as much about him as about the players. I say we put more pressure on Phil to make changes so our players can be in the best situations to use their skills - not continually complain about what the players cannot do. I think we all have to get off the habit of referring to our players as ‘garbage fodder’. Just because we haven’t made trades doesn’t mean trades haven’t been discussed. Perhaps what was offered wasn’t what we needed. Both sides have to win in a trade and that is one reason there are not that many trades made – especially with stars.

We have a number of young, developing, low end salarywise players; along with middle-of-the-road players; one good player, and one superstar. That is not a bad makeup for any team. The parts don’t all fit the triangle the way Phil Jackson wants them to, but that is his job to adjust the offense/defense to fit his players. If he can’t do that then that says as much about him as about the players.

I say we put more pressure on Phil to make changes so our players can be in the best situations to use their skills – not continually complain about what the players cannot do.

]]> By: Kurt http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-302781 Kurt Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:34:05 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-302781 Great post from Matt at Blog-a-Bull on the Kobe rumors and the Bulls: http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/11/2/0153/07648 Great post from Matt at Blog-a-Bull on the Kobe rumors and the Bulls:

http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/11/2/0153/07648

]]> By: Bobby Smith http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-302743 Bobby Smith Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:57:01 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-302743 55. drrayeye, What about your song theory as applied to Shaq-Fu? The MDE requested a trade and was moved across the country. Trading Kobe may be difficult at the moment, but there's a good chance he's gone by the trade deadline and a nearly certain chance he's gone before next season. Your song metaphor sounds cute, and I'm sure you are a great singer to boot, but the fact is Kobe is going to be trades no matter how much you like the Eagles. "Maybe Kobe should thank Jimmy for not trading Andrew" Um, why is that? Bynum may eventurally develop into a decent player, but that is going to take at least 2-3 more years, and a Shaq he will never be. Lakers have not improved in FOUR YEARS (including this season). Think about that. Kobe is wasting his prime surrounded by medicority and that is a disgrace. And did you honestly refer to Kwame at "amazingly quick." Maybe compared to a gimp Chris Mihm, but that's about it. Kwame does not have the heart or desire to be a successful player in the NBA. The only thing "amazing" about Kwame is his penchant for cake throwing and scoring for the other team. 55.

drrayeye,

What about your song theory as applied to Shaq-Fu? The MDE requested a trade and was moved across the country.

Trading Kobe may be difficult at the moment, but there’s a good chance he’s gone by the trade deadline and a nearly certain chance he’s gone before next season. Your song metaphor sounds cute, and I’m sure you are a great singer to boot, but the fact is Kobe is going to be trades no matter how much you like the Eagles.

“Maybe Kobe should thank Jimmy for not trading Andrew”

Um, why is that? Bynum may eventurally develop into a decent player, but that is going to take at least 2-3 more years, and a Shaq he will never be. Lakers have not improved in FOUR YEARS (including this season). Think about that. Kobe is wasting his prime surrounded by medicority and that is a disgrace.

And did you honestly refer to Kwame at “amazingly quick.” Maybe compared to a gimp Chris Mihm, but that’s about it. Kwame does not have the heart or desire to be a successful player in the NBA. The only thing “amazing” about Kwame is his penchant for cake throwing and scoring for the other team.

]]> By: Kurt http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-302707 Kurt Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:35:43 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-302707 Stephen, did you really just suggest getting Livingston because Odom was too fragil? Stephen, did you really just suggest getting Livingston because Odom was too fragil?

]]> By: Stephen http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-302701 Stephen Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:29:47 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-302701 Craig, For whatever reason,Phil doesn't want his PGs running his Triangle. In Chicago it was Pippen and Kukoc,in LA it was Fox a little,but mostly Shaq getting the ball early and then either hitting the open Laker or taking the shot himself. My mythical playmaker would be a SF/SG,as that is what Phil seems to want. Otherwise why try and cram Kobe into Initiator role while Lamar is out? Now as it happens there have been two players in recent drafts who I think would have been ideal-Livingston and Corey Brewer. I think the Lakers missed big time by not going after Brewer. there are a couple of players who have not had their Rookie contracts extended who might do the job-Josh Childress and Dorell Wright(altho Riley may have killed Wright's career).(Livingston was drafted by Clips as a PG,but he'd never played the point before becomming a Pro.) My point is I can think of 4 young players who have the ability to drive and have excellent passing skills and there are undoubtedly more out there. Why haven't the Lakers tried to get one,esp as Lamar has proven injury-prone and Walton hasn't shown the ability to get by defenders and has also proven somewhat fragile. As to Farmar and Crit-why did Phil have Harper start and Fisher and BJ Armstrong come off bench? In a more traditional offence I would expect Farmar's better PG skills to get him the starting nod and Crit's explosiveness have him become the 3rd combo -type gd. Assuming continued developement,and Phil sticking around, I believe he would rather have Crit's defense and scoring ability starting and Farmar's energy ramping up the tempo and his PG skills to settle the team down when a run occurs.Be a good question to ask Phil tho. Craig,
For whatever reason,Phil doesn’t want his PGs running his Triangle. In Chicago it was Pippen and Kukoc,in LA it was Fox a little,but mostly Shaq getting the ball early and then either hitting the open Laker or taking the shot himself.
My mythical playmaker would be a SF/SG,as that is what Phil seems to want. Otherwise why try and cram Kobe into Initiator role while Lamar is out?
Now as it happens there have been two players in recent drafts who I think would have been ideal-Livingston and Corey Brewer. I think the Lakers missed big time by not going after Brewer. there are a couple of players who have not had their Rookie contracts extended who might do the job-Josh Childress and Dorell Wright(altho Riley may have killed Wright’s career).(Livingston was drafted by Clips as a PG,but he’d never played the point before becomming a Pro.)
My point is I can think of 4 young players who have the ability to drive and have excellent passing skills and there are undoubtedly more out there. Why haven’t the Lakers tried to get one,esp as Lamar has proven injury-prone and Walton hasn’t shown the ability to get by defenders and has also proven somewhat fragile.
As to Farmar and Crit-why did Phil have Harper start and Fisher and BJ Armstrong come off bench? In a more traditional offence I would expect Farmar’s better PG skills to get him the starting nod and Crit’s explosiveness have him become the 3rd combo -type gd. Assuming continued developement,and Phil sticking around, I believe he would rather have Crit’s defense and scoring ability starting and Farmar’s energy ramping up the tempo and his PG skills to settle the team down when a run occurs.Be a good question to ask Phil tho.

]]> By: exhelodrvr http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-302691 exhelodrvr Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:20:06 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-302691 Paul, "However to develop young players, sometimes a loss is better than a win" Which is why it is almost impossible to be a real title contender while rebuilding. Throw in the fact that having Kobe means that the team will be at least mediocre, which means that they are unlikely to get high draft picks. The Lakers would have been better off if, last season, they IRd Lamar and Kwame, had them have their surgery when they got hurt. That would have meant no playoffs, but higher draft picks, as well as starting the preseason with Kwame and Lamar fully healthy. (Which also makes them more attractive when discussing trades with other teams.) But that would require a front office that actually thinks things out. Paul,
“However to develop young players, sometimes a loss is better than a win”

Which is why it is almost impossible to be a real title contender while rebuilding. Throw in the fact that having Kobe means that the team will be at least mediocre, which means that they are unlikely to get high draft picks.

The Lakers would have been better off if, last season, they IRd Lamar and Kwame, had them have their surgery when they got hurt. That would have meant no playoffs, but higher draft picks, as well as starting the preseason with Kwame and Lamar fully healthy. (Which also makes them more attractive when discussing trades with other teams.) But that would require a front office that actually thinks things out.

]]> By: Craig W. http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-302614 Craig W. Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:13:48 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-302614 Stephen, I understand the perfect PG would be 6'6"/6'7", but we don't have one of those and there are none available. In drafting, we should take this into account, but we have to deal with things as they are now. Farmar is our best pure PG and looking more and more like someone who can stand the load. You have him starting on the 2nd unit (because of his size??). Most PGs are in the 6'1" to 6'4" range - see Steve Nash on the shorter end. While Phil might like one thing I think he has to be flexible. All great coaches had flexibility - see John Wooden. They run a particular style, but they also adapt to the players they have. John Wooden changed his offense in the two years between Alcindor and Walton and he still won NCAA championships those years. I think that is what Phil is trying to do with this team - I certainly hope so. Stephen,
I understand the perfect PG would be 6’6″/6’7″, but we don’t have one of those and there are none available. In drafting, we should take this into account, but we have to deal with things as they are now. Farmar is our best pure PG and looking more and more like someone who can stand the load. You have him starting on the 2nd unit (because of his size??). Most PGs are in the 6’1″ to 6’4″ range – see Steve Nash on the shorter end.

While Phil might like one thing I think he has to be flexible. All great coaches had flexibility – see John Wooden. They run a particular style, but they also adapt to the players they have. John Wooden changed his offense in the two years between Alcindor and Walton and he still won NCAA championships those years.

I think that is what Phil is trying to do with this team – I certainly hope so.

]]> By: LAKERHOLIC SINCE 1982 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-302603 LAKERHOLIC SINCE 1982 Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:49:02 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2007/11/01/the-lakers-%e2%80%9cchicken-or-the-egg%e2%80%9d-problem/#comment-302603 Finally somebody sees the Laker situation like I see it. Get guys out there who want to be Lakers and score with the ball. Trade KWAME NOW( JORDAN WAS RIGHT)...FIRE KUPCHAT AND PLEASE LET MAGIC JOHNSON RUN THE SHOW SINCE WEST WONT BE BACK. IF NOT FOR KOBE THE LAKERS WOULD BE BOBCATS WEST. ALWAYS BUILD AROUND YOUR FRANCHISE MAN. LONG LIVE SHOWTIME...GET NEW MANAGEMENT Finally somebody sees the Laker situation like I see it. Get guys out there who want to be Lakers and score with the ball. Trade KWAME NOW( JORDAN WAS RIGHT)…FIRE KUPCHAT AND PLEASE LET MAGIC JOHNSON RUN THE SHOW SINCE WEST WONT BE BACK. IF NOT FOR KOBE THE LAKERS WOULD BE BOBCATS WEST. ALWAYS BUILD AROUND YOUR FRANCHISE MAN. LONG LIVE SHOWTIME…GET NEW MANAGEMENT

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