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	<title>Comments on: Starting To Get Serious</title>
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	<description>A Lakers Blog. Thoughts, reflections, and the odd rant on the Los Angeles Lakers and the NBA (even the Clippers).</description>
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		<title>By: Âàñèëèé</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-508450</link>
		<dc:creator>Âàñèëèé</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-508450</guid>
		<description>ðàáîòà , ïîäðàáîòêà, áåñïëàòíûé è äåøåâûé (10ìá çà 1 ðóá â ìåñÿö, âñå âêëþ÷åíî) õîñòèíã
http://d586.jino-net.ru</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ðàáîòà , ïîäðàáîòêà, áåñïëàòíûé è äåøåâûé (10ìá çà 1 ðóá â ìåñÿö, âñå âêëþ÷åíî) õîñòèíã<br />
<a href="http://d586.jino-net.ru" rel="nofollow">http://d586.jino-net.ru</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tod Hon</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-489535</link>
		<dc:creator>Tod Hon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 21:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-489535</guid>
		<description>I have never read any article out there saying or analyzing why Bynum and Gasol may not play well together. It&#039;s called the straw man argument. In fact, 100% of anything I&#039;ve ever read has said they will indeed play well together.
What will take longer than the O to jell will be team D. Also, Bynum even when healthy is not yet strong enough, due to his youth, to hold position either in O or D versus the stronger centers of the league. That will give us 2 seven footers with the length and quickness, but not the physicality. San Antonio with Duncan and Thomas will be stronger physically than Bynum and Gasol down low.
Even with the triple towers of Bynum, Gasol, Odon we will still be a finesse team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never read any article out there saying or analyzing why Bynum and Gasol may not play well together. It&#8217;s called the straw man argument. In fact, 100% of anything I&#8217;ve ever read has said they will indeed play well together.<br />
What will take longer than the O to jell will be team D. Also, Bynum even when healthy is not yet strong enough, due to his youth, to hold position either in O or D versus the stronger centers of the league. That will give us 2 seven footers with the length and quickness, but not the physicality. San Antonio with Duncan and Thomas will be stronger physically than Bynum and Gasol down low.<br />
Even with the triple towers of Bynum, Gasol, Odon we will still be a finesse team.</p>
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		<title>By: KurkPeterman</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-489469</link>
		<dc:creator>KurkPeterman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 21:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-489469</guid>
		<description>Brian (93) - I agree with you point about it being most valuable at the midpoint of the season, however I still think it&#039;s somewhat important at the end.  I think I may have chosen the wrong word as you are correct, divergence would imply that the values would get further away as time goes on (true for the first few games where it&#039;s hard to build statistical relevancy with 1-3 game win-loss streaks, but not necessarily for all games afterwards).  The point I was trying to make is that that you will not get the same strength of schedule for each team because as times goes on, those teams will end up playing each other a different number of times.  Even at the end of the season, no team will have played each other the same number of times.  While the differences are subtle (the difference between 3 or 4 games with teams in our conference) having that extra game with the Hornets or Dallas can be a difference maker in computing the SOS.

You are however correct in that teams that are weaker will inherently have stronger schedules at the end of the season (because they lost to harder teams).  I realized this after I posted and was going to post again with this recommendation:

SOS should only be considered for teams with winning records.

All in all, despite what I&#039;ve written, I find SOS to be a rather hit or miss indicator and much prefer offensive/defensive differential (point scored - points allowed) as an indicator of strength.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian (93) &#8211; I agree with you point about it being most valuable at the midpoint of the season, however I still think it&#8217;s somewhat important at the end.  I think I may have chosen the wrong word as you are correct, divergence would imply that the values would get further away as time goes on (true for the first few games where it&#8217;s hard to build statistical relevancy with 1-3 game win-loss streaks, but not necessarily for all games afterwards).  The point I was trying to make is that that you will not get the same strength of schedule for each team because as times goes on, those teams will end up playing each other a different number of times.  Even at the end of the season, no team will have played each other the same number of times.  While the differences are subtle (the difference between 3 or 4 games with teams in our conference) having that extra game with the Hornets or Dallas can be a difference maker in computing the SOS.</p>
<p>You are however correct in that teams that are weaker will inherently have stronger schedules at the end of the season (because they lost to harder teams).  I realized this after I posted and was going to post again with this recommendation:</p>
<p>SOS should only be considered for teams with winning records.</p>
<p>All in all, despite what I&#8217;ve written, I find SOS to be a rather hit or miss indicator and much prefer offensive/defensive differential (point scored &#8211; points allowed) as an indicator of strength.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Tung</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-489460</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Tung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-489460</guid>
		<description>sfJayP (94): Your feedback mechanism is exactly the kind of abstract SOS definition I was referring to in my earlier post.  This allows you to tie the strengths in the two conferences together, rather than having them so loosely coupled, the way it is when SOS is defined as average opponent winning percentage.

I suspect the reason they don&#039;t play a totally balanced schedule, aside from travel considerations, is that they (the NBA execs) want to cultivate strong regional rivalries (a la Lakers-Blazers, Lakers-Kings, etc).  It&#039;s harder to do that when you play everyone three times (which is what a totally balnaced schedule would amount to, more or less).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sfJayP (94): Your feedback mechanism is exactly the kind of abstract SOS definition I was referring to in my earlier post.  This allows you to tie the strengths in the two conferences together, rather than having them so loosely coupled, the way it is when SOS is defined as average opponent winning percentage.</p>
<p>I suspect the reason they don&#8217;t play a totally balanced schedule, aside from travel considerations, is that they (the NBA execs) want to cultivate strong regional rivalries (a la Lakers-Blazers, Lakers-Kings, etc).  It&#8217;s harder to do that when you play everyone three times (which is what a totally balnaced schedule would amount to, more or less).</p>
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		<title>By: sfJayP</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-489437</link>
		<dc:creator>sfJayP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-489437</guid>
		<description>Brian, others:   I&#039;ve always thought that about the strength of schedule.  Right now, I believe it measures the average winning percentage of the teams played.  However, because teams play more in their division and conference, the larger the disparity between one division and or conference from the rest, the more skewed the SOS result is.  

Logically, we can all agree that playing to a .500 record with a western conference schedule is much tougher right now than doing the same on an eastern conference schedule... meaning that, presumably, a .500 team in the west is a better team than a .500 team in the east.  In SOS they look the same, though.

From a measuring standpoint, I think the way to fix this is to introduce a feedback mechanism to generate a rating - a &quot;meaningless number&quot; in that it doesn&#039;t directly correlate to their actual wins - but one that provides an absolute scale for comparison between teams with different schedules.

Of course, there&#039;s a more logical solution....I&#039;ve recently been of the mind that not only should the playoffs seed the top 16, regardless of conference, but the regular season schedule should also be evened out.  Why do teams play more within their division and conference?  I suppose at one time, like the old 2-3-2 playoff format, it was dictated by travel, but anymore.... who cares who is a division champ?  And does it take anything away from a Conference champ just because they played equal games in the other conference?

I&#039;d really like to see that.  It would totally alleviate all the problems from having such a disparity in conference strength which effects EVERYTHING.  For instance... players generally need 50 wins to get MVP... so because of this disparity it actually makes it easier for an eastern conference player to win MVP, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, others:   I&#8217;ve always thought that about the strength of schedule.  Right now, I believe it measures the average winning percentage of the teams played.  However, because teams play more in their division and conference, the larger the disparity between one division and or conference from the rest, the more skewed the SOS result is.  </p>
<p>Logically, we can all agree that playing to a .500 record with a western conference schedule is much tougher right now than doing the same on an eastern conference schedule&#8230; meaning that, presumably, a .500 team in the west is a better team than a .500 team in the east.  In SOS they look the same, though.</p>
<p>From a measuring standpoint, I think the way to fix this is to introduce a feedback mechanism to generate a rating &#8211; a &#8220;meaningless number&#8221; in that it doesn&#8217;t directly correlate to their actual wins &#8211; but one that provides an absolute scale for comparison between teams with different schedules.</p>
<p>Of course, there&#8217;s a more logical solution&#8230;.I&#8217;ve recently been of the mind that not only should the playoffs seed the top 16, regardless of conference, but the regular season schedule should also be evened out.  Why do teams play more within their division and conference?  I suppose at one time, like the old 2-3-2 playoff format, it was dictated by travel, but anymore&#8230;. who cares who is a division champ?  And does it take anything away from a Conference champ just because they played equal games in the other conference?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d really like to see that.  It would totally alleviate all the problems from having such a disparity in conference strength which effects EVERYTHING.  For instance&#8230; players generally need 50 wins to get MVP&#8230; so because of this disparity it actually makes it easier for an eastern conference player to win MVP, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Tung</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-489435</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Tung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-489435</guid>
		<description>KurkPeterman (90): I don&#039;t see how you can rationally say SOS literally diverges as the season progresses.  Earlier in the season, maybe a quarter of the way through, Lakers SOS was nearly 0.600.  Now it&#039;s 0.509.  Everybody&#039;s SOS converges toward 0.500, especially with the NBA playing a fairly balanced infra-conference schedule.  The Lakers play practically everyone in the conference four times, as do all the other teams.  That means that at the end, the Lakers will have played a schedule similar to everyone else in the west.  The one exception?  The only team the Lakers don&#039;t play is the Lakers themselves, and since the Lakers have a good record, they would tend to have a &lt;em&gt;lower&lt;/em&gt; SOS at season&#039;s end than someone else in, say, the Pacific division.

To bear this out, look at the SOS of the top 15 teams in Hollinger&#039;s rankings.  Combined SOS is 0.497, and only five of the teams have SOS over 0.500 (including the Lakers, of course).  It&#039;s not because they&#039;ve had an explicitly weaker schedule; it&#039;s because they don&#039;t play themselves.  By comparison, the combined SOS of the bottom 15 is 0.504.  Considering you&#039;re combining 15 teams into one average at this stage (60 or so games in), that difference is huge.  But not unexpected, if you think about it for a moment.

No one is saying SOS isn&#039;t real.  But its main value, as far as I&#039;m concerned, is in comparing midseason records.  A 40-20 team with an SOS of 0.490 isn&#039;t as impressive as a 38-22 team with an SOS of 0.510.  But by the end of the season, that difference simply won&#039;t be there anymore.  It can&#039;t be, because the NBA has eschewed an unbalanced schedule that emphasizes intra-divisional play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KurkPeterman (90): I don&#8217;t see how you can rationally say SOS literally diverges as the season progresses.  Earlier in the season, maybe a quarter of the way through, Lakers SOS was nearly 0.600.  Now it&#8217;s 0.509.  Everybody&#8217;s SOS converges toward 0.500, especially with the NBA playing a fairly balanced infra-conference schedule.  The Lakers play practically everyone in the conference four times, as do all the other teams.  That means that at the end, the Lakers will have played a schedule similar to everyone else in the west.  The one exception?  The only team the Lakers don&#8217;t play is the Lakers themselves, and since the Lakers have a good record, they would tend to have a <em>lower</em> SOS at season&#8217;s end than someone else in, say, the Pacific division.</p>
<p>To bear this out, look at the SOS of the top 15 teams in Hollinger&#8217;s rankings.  Combined SOS is 0.497, and only five of the teams have SOS over 0.500 (including the Lakers, of course).  It&#8217;s not because they&#8217;ve had an explicitly weaker schedule; it&#8217;s because they don&#8217;t play themselves.  By comparison, the combined SOS of the bottom 15 is 0.504.  Considering you&#8217;re combining 15 teams into one average at this stage (60 or so games in), that difference is huge.  But not unexpected, if you think about it for a moment.</p>
<p>No one is saying SOS isn&#8217;t real.  But its main value, as far as I&#8217;m concerned, is in comparing midseason records.  A 40-20 team with an SOS of 0.490 isn&#8217;t as impressive as a 38-22 team with an SOS of 0.510.  But by the end of the season, that difference simply won&#8217;t be there anymore.  It can&#8217;t be, because the NBA has eschewed an unbalanced schedule that emphasizes intra-divisional play.</p>
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		<title>By: fanerman</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-489425</link>
		<dc:creator>fanerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-489425</guid>
		<description>Thanks Kurt.  KurkPeterman, you can just copy everything and paste it over into the next post =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Kurt.  KurkPeterman, you can just copy everything and paste it over into the next post =)</p>
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		<title>By: KurkPeterman</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-489397</link>
		<dc:creator>KurkPeterman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-489397</guid>
		<description>88 - Blast you Kurt! Sheparding people over to the new thread just as I finish my post :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>88 &#8211; Blast you Kurt! Sheparding people over to the new thread just as I finish my post <img src='http://www.forumblueandgold.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: KurkPeterman</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-489391</link>
		<dc:creator>KurkPeterman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-489391</guid>
		<description>83/84/85 - Strength of schedule can be very important depending on the division you play in.  In a regular season everyone plays 58 games the same way ( 1 home, 1 road per team in the league), it&#039;s the remaining 24 games that end up determining your strength of schedule.

The first unbiased determiner is the strength of your division.  You play an additional 2 games ( 1 home, 1 road) with each of the teams in your division.  The reason I call this unbiased it that it never changes, always 4 games a year against division opponents.  If you&#039;re in a strong (SouthWest) or weak (SouthEast) division, you will inevitably play harder or easier opponents than other teams from other divisions.

The second biased determiner is your remaining 20 games who are scheduled by the league to create matchups and television opportunities.  The one caveat is that the teams have to be in the same conference, so it is semi-unbiased towards conferences with stronger divisions.  This factor is the most random as you can end up with a tough schedule where you play your extra games against strong teams - see Lakers (2 - Dallas, 2 - New Orleans, 2 - San Antonio, 2 - Utah, 2 - Portland, 1 - Denver, 1 - Houston).

So is strength of schedule real?  Yes.  Does it even out at the end of the season?  Nope, in fact it diverges more and more with each game the passes.  Do the Lakers have one of the toughest, if not toughest, schedule this season?  Absolutely.

When I speak of strength of schedule, I am also purely talking about W-L ratio of teams you face.  This of course doesn&#039;t take into account seasonality (having harder games earlier or later in the season) or streaks or the many other intangible factors that could affect things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>83/84/85 &#8211; Strength of schedule can be very important depending on the division you play in.  In a regular season everyone plays 58 games the same way ( 1 home, 1 road per team in the league), it&#8217;s the remaining 24 games that end up determining your strength of schedule.</p>
<p>The first unbiased determiner is the strength of your division.  You play an additional 2 games ( 1 home, 1 road) with each of the teams in your division.  The reason I call this unbiased it that it never changes, always 4 games a year against division opponents.  If you&#8217;re in a strong (SouthWest) or weak (SouthEast) division, you will inevitably play harder or easier opponents than other teams from other divisions.</p>
<p>The second biased determiner is your remaining 20 games who are scheduled by the league to create matchups and television opportunities.  The one caveat is that the teams have to be in the same conference, so it is semi-unbiased towards conferences with stronger divisions.  This factor is the most random as you can end up with a tough schedule where you play your extra games against strong teams &#8211; see Lakers (2 &#8211; Dallas, 2 &#8211; New Orleans, 2 &#8211; San Antonio, 2 &#8211; Utah, 2 &#8211; Portland, 1 &#8211; Denver, 1 &#8211; Houston).</p>
<p>So is strength of schedule real?  Yes.  Does it even out at the end of the season?  Nope, in fact it diverges more and more with each game the passes.  Do the Lakers have one of the toughest, if not toughest, schedule this season?  Absolutely.</p>
<p>When I speak of strength of schedule, I am also purely talking about W-L ratio of teams you face.  This of course doesn&#8217;t take into account seasonality (having harder games earlier or later in the season) or streaks or the many other intangible factors that could affect things.</p>
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		<title>By: inwit</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/comment-page-2/#comment-489355</link>
		<dc:creator>inwit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03/03/1158/#comment-489355</guid>
		<description>Didn&#039;t get to read all the posts, but one point about Gasol and Bynum:

Now Phil can have either one on the court with Kobe or Lamar for just about the whole game in the playoffs. So, those scoring lags when we would have to rest Kobe or Lamar (making the offense too one-dimensional) won&#039;t be there because there will always be a very talented inside-outside combo on the floor. 

A very scary thought ....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t get to read all the posts, but one point about Gasol and Bynum:</p>
<p>Now Phil can have either one on the court with Kobe or Lamar for just about the whole game in the playoffs. So, those scoring lags when we would have to rest Kobe or Lamar (making the offense too one-dimensional) won&#8217;t be there because there will always be a very talented inside-outside combo on the floor. </p>
<p>A very scary thought &#8230;.</p>
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