Comments on: Preseason Chat: Lakers v. Raptors http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/ A Lakers Blog. Thoughts, reflections, and the odd rant on the Los Angeles Lakers and the NBA (even the Clippers). Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:18:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Darius http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581557 Darius Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:21:34 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581557 I understand where you're coming from fully. And I've always been an advocate of making the best move possible for the current and future prospects of a successful team. And I think you're right about Walton and his 10th best player status on the team. Although, I would say (again) that I think he's one of the more well rounded players that can contribute in more ways than Radman or Sasha (even) because those guys are more specialists (mostly shooting and spacing with some defense from Sasha, and some adequate passing/ball handling), whereas Luke is a guy that the coaches want to be a facilitator of offense and handling the ball/initiating offense while also using his strengths in moving off the ball and posting up to score. While he may not be the best player, that's a fair amount of repsponsibility for a 10th man. I understand where you’re coming from fully. And I’ve always been an advocate of making the best move possible for the current and future prospects of a successful team. And I think you’re right about Walton and his 10th best player status on the team. Although, I would say (again) that I think he’s one of the more well rounded players that can contribute in more ways than Radman or Sasha (even) because those guys are more specialists (mostly shooting and spacing with some defense from Sasha, and some adequate passing/ball handling), whereas Luke is a guy that the coaches want to be a facilitator of offense and handling the ball/initiating offense while also using his strengths in moving off the ball and posting up to score. While he may not be the best player, that’s a fair amount of repsponsibility for a 10th man.

]]> By: Kareem http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581555 Kareem Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:13:22 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581555 Bryant, Bynum, Gasol, Odom, Fisher, Radmanovich, Ariza, Sasha, Farmar: that's nine players that I would put in the game before thinking about Walton. Five million dollars is a lot to give to a tenth option. I don't think that we need to trade up or even change up. We need to free up cap and keep a couple roster spots open for developing players. I think Odom might sign for 10 million, but we might need him to sign at 8 in order to offer Bynum the money he probably deserves. An expiring contract of around 4 or 5 million dollars would really do wonders at solving that problem. Hey, I hope that Buss has deep pockets, the deepest pockets ever, if that keeps our team in contention. Buss makes plenty of money, I'm not too worried about his pockets drying up. That man pulled in 30 million from the team two years ago (more last year?), and probably has plenty sitting in the bank. The question you mentioned really hits the mark. How much is Buss willing to shell before he protects his neck? Here's my contingency: if we need to clear up cap space for our major signings, Walton is on my 'most expendable stars' list. He sits a top that list; and after Walton, the list becomes spare and full of difficult, team defining decisions. If we get rid of any of the aforementioned nine, we change the current or future character of the Lakers. I don't feel that same conviction with Walton. Anyways, we're both stubborn on this point. I like Walton. Just not if it means sacrificing someone else on the roster who I enjoy more. Bryant, Bynum, Gasol, Odom, Fisher, Radmanovich, Ariza, Sasha, Farmar: that’s nine players that I would put in the game before thinking about Walton. Five million dollars is a lot to give to a tenth option. I don’t think that we need to trade up or even change up. We need to free up cap and keep a couple roster spots open for developing players.

I think Odom might sign for 10 million, but we might need him to sign at 8 in order to offer Bynum the money he probably deserves. An expiring contract of around 4 or 5 million dollars would really do wonders at solving that problem. Hey, I hope that Buss has deep pockets, the deepest pockets ever, if that keeps our team in contention.

Buss makes plenty of money, I’m not too worried about his pockets drying up. That man pulled in 30 million from the team two years ago (more last year?), and probably has plenty sitting in the bank. The question you mentioned really hits the mark. How much is Buss willing to shell before he protects his neck?

Here’s my contingency: if we need to clear up cap space for our major signings, Walton is on my ‘most expendable stars’ list. He sits a top that list; and after Walton, the list becomes spare and full of difficult, team defining decisions. If we get rid of any of the aforementioned nine, we change the current or future character of the Lakers. I don’t feel that same conviction with Walton. Anyways, we’re both stubborn on this point. I like Walton. Just not if it means sacrificing someone else on the roster who I enjoy more.

]]> By: Darius http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581547 Darius Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:40:26 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581547 Kareem, I think winning would convince Dr. Buss to spend more on the roster in order to keep it together. I also think that if we win a title, it would lead Odom to want to stay and possibly take less money than what he could get on the open market. My overall view on the payroll is that it's high, but the Lakers are a very profitable team and are willing to go over the tax line. By how much is something that no one knows. In the end, the reason that I don't worry about a trade of Walton or of Radman is because, based off the rules of the CBA, we'd need to bring back in close to equal salary to make a trade work. That being the case, I'm not down for swapping off players we know and like unless there is a real upgrade in either talent or fit. So, while it'd be nice if ALL of our players made a little bit less money in the Spurs/Pistons model (that means Kobe, Gasol, Odom, and soon Bynum too) I understand that it's not the case. And ultimately, while we can argue the merits of our best players making the most they possibly can, I also think that when evaluating player salaries that we just can't look at a Walton and RadMan and say they should make less, because frankly, as I said before, I think ALL of our players should make a little less (I just don't begrudge them for not wanting to do that). If I had may way, Kobe would make 2-4 mil less a year, Gasol would make 1-3 mil less a year, Odom would make 3 mil less a year, and Bynum would sign a reasonable extention. Since that really can't happen, I don't know what else to say besides: Let Buss pay the tax and keep our talented team together. I see real value in Walton and Radman. And, unless there is some real upgrade or a much better fit, I'd rather have those guys than some other teams 4-5 million dollar player who may not be any better than the guys we have. Now, some disagree with me about this stuff, and that's fine. I like a healthy debate. But in the end, it's going to be tough to convince me that a healthy Walton can't help this team. I think his smarts and well rounded game (on offense) is a valuable variable to our 2nd unit. Kareem,
I think winning would convince Dr. Buss to spend more on the roster in order to keep it together. I also think that if we win a title, it would lead Odom to want to stay and possibly take less money than what he could get on the open market.

My overall view on the payroll is that it’s high, but the Lakers are a very profitable team and are willing to go over the tax line. By how much is something that no one knows.

In the end, the reason that I don’t worry about a trade of Walton or of Radman is because, based off the rules of the CBA, we’d need to bring back in close to equal salary to make a trade work. That being the case, I’m not down for swapping off players we know and like unless there is a real upgrade in either talent or fit. So, while it’d be nice if ALL of our players made a little bit less money in the Spurs/Pistons model (that means Kobe, Gasol, Odom, and soon Bynum too) I understand that it’s not the case. And ultimately, while we can argue the merits of our best players making the most they possibly can, I also think that when evaluating player salaries that we just can’t look at a Walton and RadMan and say they should make less, because frankly, as I said before, I think ALL of our players should make a little less (I just don’t begrudge them for not wanting to do that). If I had may way, Kobe would make 2-4 mil less a year, Gasol would make 1-3 mil less a year, Odom would make 3 mil less a year, and Bynum would sign a reasonable extention. Since that really can’t happen, I don’t know what else to say besides: Let Buss pay the tax and keep our talented team together. I see real value in Walton and Radman. And, unless there is some real upgrade or a much better fit, I’d rather have those guys than some other teams 4-5 million dollar player who may not be any better than the guys we have.

Now, some disagree with me about this stuff, and that’s fine. I like a healthy debate. But in the end, it’s going to be tough to convince me that a healthy Walton can’t help this team. I think his smarts and well rounded game (on offense) is a valuable variable to our 2nd unit.

]]> By: Kurt http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581532 Kurt Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:36:35 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581532 New post up New post up

]]> By: Kareem http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581530 Kareem Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:44:34 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581530 In 2007, coming off of his best statistical season, sure the contract seemed deserved. In 2008, coming off of a Finals run, considering the depth we have at the SF position and the contract decisions for the next year, Luke doesn't really fit in. We need more matter with less art. If you look beyond last game--granted this is preseason--Luke is not a harbinger of offensive competence. Luke's offensive prowess aside, what we as Laker fans must really know, that we will live and die by our defense. Athleticism is not one of Luke's stronger qualities, and I can't remember to what degree he moves laterally, but I remember it to be to a low degree. Would Luke's five million be a burning question, if we all did not have 'dynasty' on our hearts? No, not at all. But I want Lamar to stay, even as the sixth man. The only way FO can offer him what he deserves is by way of trade. Either we trade away one of these contacts, we cut LO loose, or we trade away LO. It's not my money, but we're nearing a time when all is not right in America; will Buss be affected enough that LO cannot stay? Darius, what do you see, after the end of this season, happening to our roster, with and without a championship. In 2007, coming off of his best statistical season, sure the contract seemed deserved. In 2008, coming off of a Finals run, considering the depth we have at the SF position and the contract decisions for the next year, Luke doesn’t really fit in. We need more matter with less art. If you look beyond last game–granted this is preseason–Luke is not a harbinger of offensive competence. Luke’s offensive prowess aside, what we as Laker fans must really know, that we will live and die by our defense. Athleticism is not one of Luke’s stronger qualities, and I can’t remember to what degree he moves laterally, but I remember it to be to a low degree.

Would Luke’s five million be a burning question, if we all did not have ‘dynasty’ on our hearts? No, not at all. But I want Lamar to stay, even as the sixth man. The only way FO can offer him what he deserves is by way of trade. Either we trade away one of these contacts, we cut LO loose, or we trade away LO. It’s not my money, but we’re nearing a time when all is not right in America; will Buss be affected enough that LO cannot stay? Darius, what do you see, after the end of this season, happening to our roster, with and without a championship.

]]> By: Darius http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581528 Darius Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:46:09 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581528 Kareem, I gotta disagree that Luke is a liability on offense. He may not be the best shooter we have, but he's good enough that I don't mind when he takes the open shot. Also, I think that his versatility on offense makes it so he could never be a true liability. Last night, when Luke was playing SF, he intiated the offense on the strong side with a post pass into the hub of the Triangle and then made his hard dive cut to the basket. After that, he set a down screen for the PF on the weakside, and then pinned the man he screened for a quick post up. Gasol gave him an easy pass and Luke got a layup. Now, that may seem like nothing, but besides Luke, the only other players that we have that run that same play with the same effectiveness are Kobe and Odom. That's only one example....and I could give several more. In the end, Luke has an all-court game that makes it so he can play any position on the floor in the offense and that is a valuable thing when you consider that he can score, but is even more valuable because he is a great passer. For our offense (or any read and react, passing offense) that is a strong trait to have. There's a reason we extended him and Phil continues to give him minutes. Also, his contract is not bad. Luke signed a 6 yr. $24 mil contract with standard raises. That's below the mid-level exception and this year he makes less than Rad, Sasha, and Fisher (BTW, he doesn't make more than $5 mil in a season until the 2010-11 season). The only guys that get a lot of playing time that make less than Luke are Bynum and Farmar (who are on their rookie contracts) and Ariza. Would it be better if Luke made in the 3 mil range? Sure, but I don't remember everyone saying it was a bad deal when Luke signed it, and I think it's fair for what he provides when he's healthy. He is a contributor to this team. Kareem,
I gotta disagree that Luke is a liability on offense. He may not be the best shooter we have, but he’s good enough that I don’t mind when he takes the open shot. Also, I think that his versatility on offense makes it so he could never be a true liability. Last night, when Luke was playing SF, he intiated the offense on the strong side with a post pass into the hub of the Triangle and then made his hard dive cut to the basket. After that, he set a down screen for the PF on the weakside, and then pinned the man he screened for a quick post up. Gasol gave him an easy pass and Luke got a layup. Now, that may seem like nothing, but besides Luke, the only other players that we have that run that same play with the same effectiveness are Kobe and Odom. That’s only one example….and I could give several more. In the end, Luke has an all-court game that makes it so he can play any position on the floor in the offense and that is a valuable thing when you consider that he can score, but is even more valuable because he is a great passer. For our offense (or any read and react, passing offense) that is a strong trait to have. There’s a reason we extended him and Phil continues to give him minutes. Also, his contract is not bad. Luke signed a 6 yr. $24 mil contract with standard raises. That’s below the mid-level exception and this year he makes less than Rad, Sasha, and Fisher (BTW, he doesn’t make more than $5 mil in a season until the 2010-11 season). The only guys that get a lot of playing time that make less than Luke are Bynum and Farmar (who are on their rookie contracts) and Ariza. Would it be better if Luke made in the 3 mil range? Sure, but I don’t remember everyone saying it was a bad deal when Luke signed it, and I think it’s fair for what he provides when he’s healthy. He is a contributor to this team.

]]> By: Kareem http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581527 Kareem Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:00:53 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581527 Darius, Like the notion that Denver has a strong defense (just their pace is breakneck), my mind disagrees with what my eyes see. Yes, Luke might be "unselfish" and a good ball handler, but, more than that, he is a liability on offense. When I say that he is 'unassertive' as a player, I mean 'slow to react'. He often holds on to the ball too long, takes ill-advised shots (at this point, any time he spots up for a three, that is an ill-advised shot), and does not take advantages of opportunities when they are presented to him. On defense, if he gets a quick three playing him, he is a defensive liability as well. I was one of the Walton hold-outs, the last several years, and two years ago he showcased some promise; but we already have so much depth at the SF position, that he becomes a redundancy--5 million times--for the next five years. All that said, no team will take Walton's unfortunate contract, especially now that D'Antonni coaches the Knicks. It's no Starbury, but it is a head-scratcher Darius,
Like the notion that Denver has a strong defense (just their pace is breakneck), my mind disagrees with what my eyes see. Yes, Luke might be “unselfish” and a good ball handler, but, more than that, he is a liability on offense. When I say that he is ‘unassertive’ as a player, I mean ‘slow to react’. He often holds on to the ball too long, takes ill-advised shots (at this point, any time he spots up for a three, that is an ill-advised shot), and does not take advantages of opportunities when they are presented to him. On defense, if he gets a quick three playing him, he is a defensive liability as well. I was one of the Walton hold-outs, the last several years, and two years ago he showcased some promise; but we already have so much depth at the SF position, that he becomes a redundancy–5 million times–for the next five years.

All that said, no team will take Walton’s unfortunate contract, especially now that D’Antonni coaches the Knicks. It’s no Starbury, but it is a head-scratcher

]]> By: exhelodrvr http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581526 exhelodrvr Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:50:16 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581526 Kenny, Luke's contract is not enormous by NBA standards. I believe that it is slightly below average. Kenny,
Luke’s contract is not enormous by NBA standards. I believe that it is slightly below average.

]]> By: chibi http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581524 chibi Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:18:41 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581524 In the last two games, teams look reluctant to test the Laker interior defense. The Lakers have been creating a lot of turnovers as opponents swing the ball around on the perimeter. In the last two games, teams look reluctant to test the Laker interior defense. The Lakers have been creating a lot of turnovers as opponents swing the ball around on the perimeter.

]]> By: k_swagger8 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/10/19/preseason-chat-lakers-v-raptors/comment-page-1/#comment-581523 k_swagger8 Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:39:05 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=1360#comment-581523 my first full game watching the lakers this pre-season. Some things worth mentioning: * The starting five of Bynum, Gasol, Radman, Kobe and Fish looks set. just a few more games to polish the chemistry of the starting five and i think the will be awesome! * Gasol being replaced by Odom at around the 5 and a half min mark is a good change up, then gasol replaces bynum at around the 2 min mark will keep at least 2 of our four stars in the game at all times * The second unit of Farmar, ariza, odom, walton and probably gasol is like a second starting five that can match up with any other starting unit in the NBA. * Ariza has a definite chemistry with farmar, and Odom with the two. from what i saw earlier, odom is definitely getting into game shape and knowing his role for this team. (awesome to watch him coming in at PF, then switching to SF and then PG. now, who would want to trade away such a versatile player? * with the impending inclusion of sasha to the 2nd unit, that five will be the peskiest, most energizing five in the league (i predict the lakers leading the league in team steals and forced turnovers) * Powell should be given regular minutes. Mbenga should be kept ( I think right now he is better than mihm) as these two will bring toughness in this team. Sun Yue should spend half the season or this season in the NBDL. Heath may be a better option (as the 3rd PG) than Coby Karl playing behind Kobe, Fish, Farmar, Sasha, Ariza with all that being said, i cant wait for the season to start. This team is going to be special! I cant see why we wont be in every single game for this next season with our roster my first full game watching the lakers this pre-season. Some things worth mentioning:

* The starting five of Bynum, Gasol, Radman, Kobe and Fish looks set. just a few more games to polish the chemistry of the starting five and i think the will be awesome!

* Gasol being replaced by Odom at around the 5 and a half min mark is a good change up, then gasol replaces bynum at around the 2 min mark will keep at least 2 of our four stars in the game at all times

* The second unit of Farmar, ariza, odom, walton and probably gasol is like a second starting five that can match up with any other starting unit in the NBA.

* Ariza has a definite chemistry with farmar, and Odom with the two. from what i saw earlier, odom is definitely getting into game shape and knowing his role for this team. (awesome to watch him coming in at PF, then switching to SF and then PG. now, who would want to trade away such a versatile player?

* with the impending inclusion of sasha to the 2nd unit, that five will be the peskiest, most energizing five in the league (i predict the lakers leading the league in team steals and forced turnovers)

* Powell should be given regular minutes. Mbenga should be kept ( I think right now he is better than mihm) as these two will bring toughness in this team. Sun Yue should spend half the season or this season in the NBDL. Heath may be a better option (as the 3rd PG) than Coby Karl playing behind Kobe, Fish, Farmar, Sasha, Ariza

with all that being said, i cant wait for the season to start. This team is going to be special! I cant see why we wont be in every single game for this next season with our roster

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