History of the Carry-Over Call

Kurt —  November 7, 2009

Rockets @ Lakers Game 1
Last night during Phil Jackson’s pregame talk, he was asked questions about the unique talent that Allen Iverson is, a small player who could get to the rim among the trees and finish. Phil talked about a couple things, including the discontinued dribble (carry over, if you want to call the game old school), which Iverson “brought into the game in all its glory.”

Then Phil went into an interesting history of calling that rule through the last 20 years:

The basic rules have changed in basketball over the last 20, 25 years. You know, we kind of joke about it. But when the hand goes under the ball, that is considered a carry, and you couldn’t do that at all at any level when we played basketball back in the 60s and 70s.

You know, Jimmy Walker came in with the innovative “spin dribble” and he cupped the ball when he did that and they called him, they wouldn’t let him do that and it changed his game. College had allowed him to do it. Earl Monroe was doing the same thing at the time but he kept his hand on top of the ball so they allowed Earl to have that move, which became his patented move.

As the game progressed, that pronation of the hand, as we call it, under the ball became part of dribbling. Now it’s discontinuing, when the ball doesn’t continue at the normal pace, is what they try to register, and that is very difficult to do. So my hats off to these guys, they are trying to do something very difficult.

31 responses to History of the Carry-Over Call

  1. A lot of people the last couple years had talked about Kobe getting older and needing to develop a “below the rim” type of game that doesn’t require splitting double teams and dunking over centers, much like Jordan did late in his career. Last night’s game was evidence that he’s there. I’m excited to watch more of the new Kobe.

    Now with Ron Artest in the fold, and Bynum coming into his own, plus Pau and LO, we’ve got 5 guys who can go to the block and shoot a high percentage. Scary for the league. Phil just has to find the mismatch and pound it until the double teams start coming, then sit and watch while our superior passing tears teams apart.

    • Travis, they did a good job of exploiting the mismatch last night. Mayo (then Sam Young) could not handle Kobe in the post, and Memphis made no adjustment. No quick help. They took the “we’ll let Kobe get his and stop everyone else” (they didn’t do that either) mentality, so the Lakers kept pounding the mismatch. As they should.

  2. The Zen Master…blowing my mind.

  3. Mayo didn’t agree with the strategy of just letting him get roasted 1-on-1:

    “As a team, we’ve got to see that if one guy gets rolling, bring a double team and get it out of his hands,” Mayo said.


  4. I was so glad to see Bynum NOT playing against Memphis.

  5. Good stuff from the Zen Master. That’s the most obvious difference I see when I watch old film, the way they dribble always looked awkward to me, but now I realize it’s a purer form of bball.

    Kurt made a great point on the last thread. The coaching staff sees things we don’t. If Brown (an athletic, strong defender) is getting as much burn as we think he should, then there’s likely something there we’re not aware of. He’s more of an unknown quantity, so we haven’t seen the worst of him.

    I do think our coaching staff (and Kobe) are underrated for player development. The Knicks and Magic dismissed Ariza as broken, Kobe takes him under his wing, and now the guy is a champion who’s put up 28 and 33 points. So I hope to see Brown continue to improve.
    But if Mitch can find a spark off the bench for Farmar and Ammo, I wouldn’t be against it. We need that spark to exhume the corpse of the Bench Mob…then again, moving Odom back to the bench may be enough. Time will tell.

  6. @Snoopy
    As as soon as that spark hit, I may start referring to the “Bench Mob” as the Frankenmob.

  7. Mayo’s defense wasn’t just terrible on Kobe. Shannon Brown’s dunk where he drove past Mayo was hilariously bad defense.

    The Grizzlies should just promote themselves as a motivational inspiration for struggling offenses.

  8. 8 – The Warriors as well. Watched the Clips beat them to pulp last night. Baron and Kaman looked like future Hall of Famers …

    At this rate the W’s will be playing to a empty builidng by the All Star Break.

  9. 9

    Considering how long-suffering the Warriors fans have been over the years, that would be quite an accomplishment.

  10. Phil is right on. I remember playing playground ball in elementary school in the 70s, and we would routinely call “carrying over” on each other. Bet that doesn’t happen today!

  11. R,

    The Warrior ownership let’s Nellie and that team be so pathetic because the fans still sell out and stay loyal. Chances are that won’t happen. They support their team.

    How Nellie still has a job is beyond me.

  12. Last night’s game was the best overall this year. Good time! Kobe was sensational. I don’t recall seeing him getting such good position and making the turnaround so consistently. But I can’t tell if he was just on fire, or Mem failed to adjust and went with a suicidal strategy, or not having Drew and Pau freed up space, or this was something new with Kobe. Can’t way for next game.

  13. We should all know by now that there is this inner-Kobe that Kobe can reach into when times absolutely demand him to.

    Last year, I think it was the game after Bynum went down where he broke the MSG record or something…

    Basketball is a team game, and it’s most beautiful when played as such, but darn it there is some real entertainment and beauty to somebody simply taking over and imposing his will. And in the case of Kobe, it is not the will to win one game that is being shown, but the will to better himself in a quest for basketball perfection.

    Forget all of his human deficiencies, for a fan, a multi millionaire of a player in his 13th season as a pro who STILL plays to improve is a player that simply demands respect.

  14. Yes, last night was a beautiful game to watch Kobe play ball. Those fadeaway, turnaround, jumpers at the elbow or wherever, with a hand completely covering his face and eyes, are just wonderful to watch. He just amazes me with how he seems to be getting better and better with time, I am looking forward to my first Staples game this year to watch him in person again. When he has to, he can carry a team on his back for a win, and the team seems to be jelling more and more as the year progresses.

  15. So much for the entertainment we’d get out of the Iverson experiment in Memphis:


    I honestly don’t know if he knows he’s shooting himself in the foot right now with what he just did. No team’s gonna want to sign him now, for sure.

  16. -12 How Nellie ever had a job as a head coach is beyond me. The guy’s never won anything, anywhere. Best guess I can venture at his ongoing employment is perhaps some owners care more about fans in seats than Ws in the standings.

    If you want to see a team win 40 to 50 per season by playing a helter-skelter style of offense, only to lose in the first round, then Nellie’s your guy. If your goal is to contend for a trophy in June, call someone else.

    As for this carrying topic, add the refs’ refusal to call that violation to one of the many things that’s wrong with the game today. You can’t guard someone who gets away with that move effectively, hence guys like Nash and AI have won MVP awards.

    I can’t even fathom how good someone like Isiah Thomas would have been had he played under today’s rules. He’d have dropped 50 a night, with refs letting him carry and whistling anyone who hand-checked him on the perimeter.

    I miss the old style, but today’s game is the result of the fan revolt stemming from the 80-point games the Bad Boy Pistons and early 90s Knicks used to subject fans to on TV every Sunday.

  17. What an idiot….dear Lord….the things I’d do if I had half that athleticism and talent….

    I won’t say Iverson’s career is over just yet. If he comes back, we know he can still ball. And if he somehow helps the Grizz in some tiny way, some team desperate to sell tickets might still take a gamble. The NBA is a fool’s league. But if AI hasn’t matured in all these years, I seriously doubt he’ll return and magically bestow guidance on the young players. The only likely scenario I see is Heisley caving, and then pressuring Hollins to letting AI start. But wow…

  18. Not Kobe, Not carry-over.

    But just some thoughts on the guard rotation. I think people are making too much over Brown not getting enough burn behind Farmar (biased cos I’m a Farmar-homer). Moving on – Farmar is like a Sasha in terms of needing confidence and burn to play well. Whilst Brown, especially evident in the Denver series has no qualms with coming off the bench in the third quarter. He’s got the character to be willing and able to provide small sparks of momentum-changing energy.

    Personally, I think they complement one another very well, Farmar’s hustle and jumpers (slowly coming along) and Brown’s knack for big plays and stronger defense.

    We should really worry about Sashapova. He’s losing time, not on ability, but emotional instability.

    • I will say I listened to Iverson talk in the locker room after the last game. Just my impression: He could not figure out why Conley was starting ahead of him, he was convinced he helped the team have a better chance to win. I have no doubt he gives it his all still when he plays, but he can’t figure out why he should come off the bench.

  19. No doubt, Iverson has every right to start with the stats he has been putting up in very limited limits, but somehow though I was under the impression that he knowingly signed a deal with Memphis primarily as backup veteran player who can provide a spark for a relatively young and inexperienced team… there was even some talk about him mentoring the young backcourt the Grizzlies had back from when the signing was announced.

    I don’t understand AI anymore -_-

  20. This nonsense to start the season just shows how foolish signing AI really was for Memphis. He’s already made it abundantly clear he doesn’t want to come off the bench, and you bring him in to ‘mentor’ (off the bench of course) a young PG still finding his way in the league? Amazing. What a laughingstock that franchise is.

  21. ahh the iverson saga continues.

    just hope he doesn’t turn out to be fool’s gold for some championship contender. i mean, boston anyone?

    if any, the lakers have the more capable coaching staff, management, (ironically environment) to take him in. maybe wallace is willing to take in more expiring contracts. but we won’t take him. that’ll make us all puke or have cardiac arrest (too much friction). i think we’re done with entertaining him. aside from what is unseen, it’s all on ai. not a good way to cement your legacy.


  22. Lets bring AI to LA. Have him sit behind Derek Fisher and score 30 points a game (95% of our bench production) and still complain about not starting. “I don’t understand why I’m not starting in front of that guy.”

    jokes aside, AI does have a point. Memphis is abysmal. AI would be a better starting point guard option for them this year. Except Memphis has a project player they’re trying build into a start. I agree with Joel. Bad move by Memphis. Lets see how long it takes for Cleveland to buy in Iverson and send over two pieces of steak for his contract. Who else? Charlotte?

  23. To clarify, Cleveland because they like bringing in washed up star power to hide the fact that LeBron ball is all that will ever work for them. Imagine Lebron and Iverson sharing the rock!

  24. http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lakers-fyi8-2009nov08,0,464483.story

    no Pau no Drew tonight.
    me thinks they are playing it extra safe, given that we have 3 days off, and Thursday’s game is against the Suns, and we want to play Phx at full strength. They have become our most serious competition in the West at this time, so we want to come out strong and play like it’s a statement game.
    also, if we play with the line up we used against the Griz, it played pretty well, that’s the luxury of having a deep bench, (which can also be a curse when the team is at full strength, trying to find time, rhythm for that many players).
    let’s hope LO has a better game tonight, and that Josh can keep playing at this level so it becomes the norm for him.
    and Ron has continued to improve each game, I recall kurt saying he’s best from the 3 pt line from that angle, not the corner three or straight away, but from that angle, he’s pretty deadly!
    and of course, Kobe, he’s taking it to a new level, didn’t know there was one, but he’s doing it, he really was unstoppable against the griz.

  25. Anyone know what time today’s game is going to be in Pacific time?

  26. Thanks Kurt

  27. Basketball reference has a feature called MVP predictor, where it predicts the MVP based on a few statistics (points, rebounds, team wins). Current leader: Kobe Bean Bryant.

  28. I’m kinda torn on Iverson. I wish he was more business savvy. He lacks any kind of diplomacy. On the other hand, he is paid to play the best ball on the universe, not to make media speeches, and I also felt he has a sincerity about his philosophy (of not wanting to come off the bench at any circumstance). But there is also a lot of pride in the mix. It is a bit nasty. And I also perceive Hollins is trying to make a statement about who’s calling the shots at the Grizzlies locker room. In a sense, if Hollins let AI do as he pleases, his “me first” mentality could spread to the more impresionable young players in the team and destroy the focus his team desperately needs.