It’s Official: Crazy Rumor Season Has Begun

Kurt —  January 10, 2010

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Let’s get the details out of the way: Peter Vescey reports that a source told him the Lakers would like to move Andrew Bynum for Chris Bosh.

My source believes the Lakers will offer Andrew Bynum for Bosh (if they haven’t done so already) well before the deadline expires. In itself, the one-for-one swap is impossible to make. Bynum’s “base year” essentially allows L.A. to take back but half of his salary this year ($12.5M). Of course, that restriction is lifted when next year’s salary ($13.7M) activates come July 1, at which time a sign-and-trade transaction would be feasible.

The possibility of such a deal makes sense to me. First of all, Bynum is a legit starting center for the defending champions. He also has three years left on his contract after this one.

As for the Raptors, despite the severe offseason roster renovation, they’re not giving any indication of being more than just a one-and-done playoff group this season and in the foreseeable future.

The first of the year always brings with it a flood of trade rumors and as we get closer to the deadline they get more crazy. Know this about Vescey — he throws a lot of rumors out there. A lot. To be fair, some pan out, but many do not. His Lakers sources have been spoty at best. Also, notice his phrasing in that first paragraph: His source “believes” the Lakers will make this offer. Does it sound like he got this directly from a decision maker?

Also, know this about unsourced rumors: Nobody tells a reporter something because they like them. There is a motive. Every time you see a rumor, think: “Who benefits by this being out there?” Did a team plant a rumor to increase trade value or gain leverage in another negotiation? Did an agent plant a rumor to help his client? I don’t know who Vecsey’s contact is, but they are feeding him this big rumor for a reason.

This rumor makes little sense to me in the short term because Bynum is base year player (as mentioned in the piece). To get Bosh at the trade deadline the Lakers would need to send Bynum, Morrison and Farmar — that is a lot of talent to suddenly be missing mid season. Then you have to teach Bosh the triangle offense and see if he can play with Kobe and Gasol — Bosh is a budding superstar, do you think he wants to be option number three?.

And then there is the money issue — the Lakers are already at the top end of what Buss wants to pay. Bosh is a free agent this summer and will get a max (or at least near max) deal. Do you think the Lakers can really add that on to Kobe (who will get extended or opt out and re-up this summer), the new Gasol deal, Odom, Artest, Walton and so on? And you want to get a point guard on top of that?

The rumors are out there. More are to come. I would suggest looking at them with a critical eye. While the fan base may want a big statement move, that is not very likely. These are the defending NBA champions and they have the best record in basketball — do you really blow that up midseason?

Kurt

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126 responses to It’s Official: Crazy Rumor Season Has Begun

  1. Go ahead and talk trades in this thread, but keep it to this thread. Later today the Bucks game thread goes up and that is reserved for the game.

  2. bulls and lakers trade:

    lakers receive k. hinrich and j. noah;

    bulls receive andrew bynum, j. farmar and trade exception from c. mihm;

    this trade may be beneficial for both teams.

    hinrich’s contract value decreases yearly (meaning reduced luxury tax) and he will provide much needed shooting and defence from pg and sometimes sg position; noah’s skills are more suitable for the triangle offence than bynum’s with his superior passing skills and court vision. noah also provides better focus on defence, more hustle plays and rebounds.

    bynum is exactly the player bulls have been pining for; he gives them athleticism and much needed scoring from the paint to balance the offence. farmar gives them a very serviceable replacement at pg position for the year and another expiring contract at the end of the year.

    win-win. i think. comments are encouraged.

    thank you.

  3. Usually where there’s NBA smoke there’s an agent rubbing two reporters together.

    Prob expect the Kobe/Bosh Olympic angle,smart player could fit in Triangle,money’s not that big an issue,it’s Chris Bosh!,etc. But Bosh plays remarkably similar to Gasol in that neither seem to enjoy banging down low and prefer to set up high. I just can’t see the Lakers willing to spend that much for essentially the same player.(Yes I know Bosh is slightly better defender,better shooter and Gasol is much better passer,still their styles end up about the same.)

    This could only happen if the Lakers were totally disenchanted w/Andrew and considering his biggest supporter is likely going to be running the team….

  4. I’m not sure how the money matches up, but I think if the Lakers were really interested in getting Bosh it would make more sense to trade Gasol for Bosh. This would help Bynum as Bosh likes to step out to the perimeter which would give Bynum more room to operate inside.

    I’ve been over every trade scenario and can only come up with 1 possibility that makes sense for the Lakers. I think the one thing we are missing is legitimate 3-point shooting. I’ve put this trade in the ESPN Trade Machine and the money matches up.
    Trade Adam Morrisson (exp. contract) and Jordan Farmer (exp. contract) to Philadelphia for Jason Kapono (last year of his deal). This gives us the 3-point shooter we need to better space the floor.

  5. “To get Bosh at the trade deadline the Lakers would need to send Bynum, Morrison and Farmar — that is a lot of talent to suddenly be missing mid season”
    Funny…

    BTW i don’t agree with you.(Forget that the trade may not even happen)You seem to suggest that you are opposed to swapping Bynum/Ammo/Farmar for Bosh?

  6. Btw, just to put things in perspective to us complaining Laker fans, just think about how ironic this story is. I remember 3 years ago when Peter Vecsey broke the story that the Lakers and had a deal on the table that would send Bynum and Odom to the Pacers for Jermaine O’Neal.

    I must admit I was screaming for the Lakers to take that deal. Can you imagine how much of a disaster that would have been? The irony of it all is that in all possibilities the Lakers would have been in position to get Bosh in 2010 because we never would have gotten Gasol and would have had money to offer him a max deal.

  7. Anyone have any thoughts on Bill Simmon’s idea that the Lakers should/could trade Morrison & Farmar for Jose Calderon of the Raptors?

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/091223&sportCat=nba

    The team’s 3 point shooting seems to be significantly dragging down the offense. Having a reliable outside shooter would really open things up and keep defenders from collapsing onto the post. While Calderon is a bad defender – in fact he might be the worst defender in the league – our current crop of point guards aren’t all that good on that end of the floor either.

    To be honest, I think that trade would be an awesome idea except for the money situation. The team is already selling off draft picks and has the highest payroll in the league. What about next year when the luxury tax line decreases even more and all the players get their raise and we don’t have a 1st round pick to sell.

  8. NO NO NO to the Calderon idea, he isn’t even starting right now because the Raptors are better off starting Jarret Jack at the point and no the Jason Kapono idea, if he doesn’t start or get significant minutes on a bad team he doesn’t have a chance here.

    As for the Bosh rumor I think it is absolutely brilliant. First off we need someone who can play as a counterpart to Gasol and as seen this season and last Bynum may not be his running mate down low. Currently constructed what do the Lakers lack besides a point guard? athleticism and a spacing midrange shooting 4 (alot of the problems Cleveland had last year). Gasol has shown he can play center as evident by starting at center most of the season when Bynum has gone out and quite frankly offensively the team has always looked better. Plus Gasol shut down Dwight Howard single handedly so the man can play center (especially if Tim Duncan is a center at times). This allows Gasol more room to operate down low and to kick out to a slashing big man who can shoot or come down the lane for a dunk. Let’s face it Bynum even admits it he doesnt play as well when Gasol is there, and that’s a problem I dont see changing. Bynum wants to be the head taco downlow and on this team no way that happens with Gasol because Pau is THE MAN behind Kobe.

    Defensively we may lose something (although I think very little) because Bynum inconsistently brings his effort to the game and as good as he is he doesn’t bring it enough to this side of the floor. And I expect Bynum never will, kind of like how Shaq barely ever did his entire career. Bynum wants to be a scoring machine, so why not let him do it in Toronto.

    BOSH is a true gem of a prospect, the man can go head to head with any of the best PF’s in the league, including a healthy more youthful KG when I saw their matchups. Defensively if anyone remembers in the Olympics on the redeem team, Dwight often was benched for Bosh because he was more reliable and solid down low for the team. Dumping AMMO’s contract would be a plus and sadly if we have to roll the dice and lose Farmar, then be it. Bosh is a franchise player and actually reading the rumor made my pants wet. He is too intelligent and too athletic and talented to say he can’t integrate into the triangle as well as Gasol did (plus how much triangle do we even play lately). We would win the next 4 championships EASILY. This also leaves someone for the Lakers to depend on after Kobe retires to play with Gasol, and dont mention how bad the Raptors are or any of that crap the guy would give 1000% effort for a chance to win a championship.

    Make the trade Mitch it’s a billion dollar lottery ticket

  9. Kurt, can you disclose where exactly you got the rumor for this trade? Or point us in the direction to look more into it without revealing your source (which I’m sure you dont want to do)

  10. brought this over from the last thread.

    “Zephid wrote on January 9, 2010 at 3:58 pm
    Omg, I thought my usage of Brown Dwarf was soooooo funny. Maybe it’s because I’m a massive dork and into jokes like that, but I could see how it could be offensive taken out of context.

    But c’mon, he let Juwan Howard grab 10 rebounds. Juwan frickin’ Howard! The dude is 6?9 on a good day. He’s like 40 years old. I was expecting a 20 and 20, Moses Malone style line from Andrew considering he was being guarded by LaMarcus “Yea, Physical Contact Isn’t Really my Thing” Aldridge and Juwan Howard. Some of that is due to Kobe’s massive ball-hoggery (LBK/DBK), but Andrew needs to see that Kobe is getting manhandled on his drives, and get into position to either receive a pass or collect rebounds, neither of which I saw until the last 6 minutes of the game.

    Yea, he couldn’t buy a call in the game, but if you can’t buy a call, and your opponent is getting ticky tack fouls called for them, then you gotta start hammering people for real when you foul them. Tell the refs “that isn’t a foul, this is a foul,” Crocodile Dundee style.

    Frankly, wasn’t a terrible performance by Bynum, but I expect more from him than to play Juwan Howard to a draw.”

    have to defend drew a bit on this one. not taking offense to the new nickname or anything like that. drew was matched up with Aldridge most of the game and lamar was guarding Juwan. in the first half when drew actually got the ball in the post against Aldridge they would send a very quick double team with Howard off of lamar and drew was never really able to find lamar cutting or anything and had to pass the ball out. even if he was to find lamar open, lamars outside shot isnt obviously the greatest. later on when drew realized the double was coming right away he rushed a number of shots. besides one spectacular alley oop from lamar, drew really was played very well in this game. all his points came from rebound put backs or tip ins. add in that drew and lamar got basically zero calls the whole game it made it a rough night. portland played good sound defense all night without fouling. lakers settled for outside shots and weren’t agressive. juwan made some very lucky shots with the clock running down a couple times and he’s still an NBA player. although i would have never guessed him to be as effective as he was. i guess what im saying is ease up on drew this was a team loss. the lakers played horrible defense all night.

  11. So, what’s the thinking here? Would Pau be our C and Bosh stay at the 4? Or would we try to play a 6-9, 6-10 Bosh at Center?

    I’m not a fan of how Bynum’s been playing of late – either his disinterest in rebounding or (very often) his lazy or stupid defensive rotations, nor do I understand how he can go 9/9 one day, then 2-9 the next night with seemingly all the same looks – but still…. does anyone else here not see the value of bynum’s size (vis a vis bosh’s or pau’s) in terms of playing the howards, perkins, shaqs of the playoff world? Bosh is a workhorse and an objective talent upgrade over AB, but is this really a better fit for what the lakers need come June?

    In this regard I agree with Rudy at #4 that Gasol might make more sense (his specific skills are more in line with Bosh’s), or even Lamar for Bosh, but I don’t think there’s any way that’s going to happen (and moreover, I really hope it doesn’t). With Bosh, we’d have three of more-or-less the same kind of guy (perhaps I should say ‘body’), giving up the rarest asset (a big man in a league devoid of them) to get him. AB is infuriating, but with Yao out, he’s probably still the 2nd best C with huge longterm upside….

    So, in short, I think this is BS, at least in terms of the Lakers interest in the deal. In some ways, I could even imagine a Bynum-Kamen swap making more sense than this one (idea would be to trade the future for a better present), which is not to say that Kamen is better than Bosh, but rather that he might fit our needs better….

    I really don’t see the Lakers doing anything this season, other than a Mihm-like deal to dump AMMO’s luxury tax hit.

  12. SoT, I’m opposed to a Bosh/Bynum swap midseason. You would be without your best backup — maybe best overall — point guard (not to get into that debate). Bosh and Gasol are both really big fours/small fives, so I think you lose a little on defense, particularly against strong centers (Howard, if we saw him again in the Finals, although Gasol did do a solid job on him last time around). I don’t think things are so broken with this team it needs to be shaken to its core. Now, off-season sign and trade…. we can talk.

    But the other thing being ignored is money. Bosh makes more than Bynum and is due a raise — maybe max. Check out the link below to be reminded of the Lakers finances going forward. Kobe: Max. Gasol: near max. Odom at $8.2 next year, plus Walton and Sasha (stop dreaming they are going to get anyone to trade for Sasha, you hate him so you think other teams will line up for him?). The Lakers are not going to take on another max or near max deal. Bynum is set to make $13.8 million next year. Bosh makes over $15 million this year and expects a raise. Any raise you give him as a Laker is doubled by the luxury tax. So, even if on the court the deal worked, it doesn’t work financially.

    http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2009/12/18/so-you-think-the-lakers-are-going-to-make-a-trade/

  13. I just tried to Bosh for Bynum, Ammo and Farmar and the trade works on ESPN’s trade machine.

    Look let’s be realistic neither Farmar or Brown are the future starting point guard, our best chances to get one will be during the summer in free agency.

    I see this trade being a home run with the only real problems being

    A. Kobe’s impending contract (although I would hope he would take some sort of paycut to get Bosh here)

    B. Bosh will be a free agent during the summer, how do we resign him after the summer while still offering him a max deal.

  14. >Kurt, can you disclose where exactly you got the rumor for this trade?

    the Vecsey story is in the link given at the top. Vecsey doesn’t reveal his source(s).

  15. Kurt, I agree with everything you’ve just said but . . .
    Hypothetically if the Lakers do not do well for the rest of this month and we start to accumulate significant losses on the road and towards the start of February, would you start to entertain the idea?

  16. Instead of Farmar apart of the Bosh package why can’t a trade exception be included?

  17. regarding a Bosh for Bynum swap. i think this could actually work in terms of the fit with Gasol and Bosh. Pau has turned into a mostly low post player and Chris has a nice outside shot. although not sure how it would work with being the 2nd or 3rd option on the team. and bosh would definately command a max or near max deal during the offseason. if he was willing to possibly take a pay cut perhaps it would work out. but i doubt anything like that ever happening. unless your name is ron artest and you want to win championships. usually when mitch makes a trade there aren’t any rumors about it before it happens. so im very skeptical this will go down.

  18. The only player that I think would be a very good fit for the Lakers who is reasonably obtainable would be Hinrich.

    He’s smart, plays great defense and has a bad contract.

    A deal centered around Ammo and one other guy would appear to be what it takes. Ammo and Sasha probably makes Chicago laugh and hang up the phone. Ammo and Farmar doesn’t quite work with the money.

    Ammo, Farmar and Sasha for Hinrich and a throw-in works with the money, but probably not with the Bulls.

    In short, I don’t see any way to get Hinrich

  19. 14. As exciting as I got reading Bynum for Bosh I forgot to read the entire article, LOL thanks for pointing me in the right direction I was just like a kid in a candy store.

    And everyone makes the claim that size is so important but look at the league the art of the big man at center is dying most teams are going smaller with more ahtletic big men. Gasol can guard the Perkins and Kamans and Howards and Shaqs he has done it before. Do I need to remind anyone that Bynum missed Significant time when his knees went out and look how incredible our records were then. Bynum didn’t even play in the playoffs and we still won the ship. Also Bosh is a pretty legit defender, I have seen him have some pretty incredible battles with Dwight many times.

  20. I think all our problems would be solved if Bynum just came off the bench once Gasol returns. Hopefully this rumour will get Bynum to play better.

  21. if they did trade for bosh i think the lakers would be willing to do this even if bosh didn’t agree to a long term contract. i think they could offer him what andrew is making at the end of the season or maybe a bit more for 3 years while kobe gets his 3 year max contract. after that they could offer him a much bigger deal. if he doesn’t accept it and signs with another team the lakers still have their best linuep to put on the floor with gasol, odom, artest and bryant. and they would have the money to go out and get a pretty nice PG and backup center.

  22. Spaniardred, I think kurt already addressed Bynum coming off the bench. I dont think that helps anything I think it renders him virtually useless because it will hurt his confidence, make him a little angry and him playing with the Taco unit=UGLY basketball. Lamar was able to come off the bench because he was mentally more tough and he has many more skills that enable him to play and help try to bring along the growth of the taco unit. I think every Laker fan will admit though the team looks best with Gasol at Center, and Lamar at PF

  23. Before we discuss this rumor to anymore degree, let me go and make this trade on NBA 2K10 and let me simulate a season to see how the team turns out. LOL and I just want to play with that lineup.

  24. I actually think Bynum’s agent leaked this deal. It’s obvious Bynum wants to be a franchise guy (especially on offense) and he’ll never be more than the number 3 with the lakers. The kid is also only 22 so probably his stats and legacy are more important than winning championships right now…

  25. I am totally against Gasol at center. He is much more effective at the PF position. I don’t know why people think Gasol can guard true centers. A big misconception is that Gasol played Howard in the finals 1 on 1 well. The Lakers gave Gasol all kinds of help when they were matched up. The only time Howard saw single coverage was when Bynum was on him. And we all saw what happened against the Celtics in the finals when Gasol had to play center. That is why if we were to go after Bosh, I think trading Gasol for Bosh is a better idea. Gasol is not geared for playing tall physical big men.

  26. 25. A big misconception how Rudy? The man did play Howard great, the only reason we doubled is because well that’s what you do with dominate big men and at that time Orlando was giving him the ball and he was scoring consistently (something Orlando isnt doing now). And Bynum was eaten alive by Howard he would get 2 fouls and be out in like 3 minutes of play. Gasol can’t guard KG maybe but Bosh can and has done so before.

  27. lakersfansincemikan (tsuwm): I linked to Vescey’s article where the rumor is discussed. I can add that he is not the only person to hear that rumor, just the only one to write it. Without giving anything away, it is safe to say that this had been discussed within the organization at some level.

  28. http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=14934

    here’s another link to the story.
    gotta say that I can see some logic to it, (not addressing the financing side of it) because I think we are redundant with Pau and Drew out there, something seems to be not clicking.

  29. Bosh isn’t coming to LA, so it’s a waste of time to discuss that. About as likely as LBJ for LO. (What we really need is a three point shooter – let’s hope Luke has been working on his shooting).

    Much more interesting, though, is why is this Bynum/Bosh rumor out there? Maybe no particular reason. Maybe Bynum wants to go somewhere he can be “the Man”. Maybe Maybe Maybe …

  30. The Lakers brass is trying to decide how to play this poker style without laughing from giddiness that they are close to trading a star player for a young player who hasn’t even proved he can stay healthy yet…

    I like Bynum but I thnk Lakers fans opposed to this deal, are overvaluing Bynum’s potential and role with this team.

  31. So the proposed trade would be something along the lines of Deal #1: Bynum, Ammo, and Farmar for Bosh.

    However, there’s a couple of issues with this:

    1. Luxury Tax

    This deal actually subtracts from our massive tax bill ($21 mil according to ESPN’s Daily Dime). Next season, however, is a different story. Bosh’s contract (assuming we want to re-sign him) will be max, which will be starting around $15 mil per season, about 1-2 mil more than Bynum. Add in the 2 min contracts we’d have to add to replace the two roster slots vacated by Farmar and Ammo, and we’d have about $4 mil more to pay next year, $6 mil with tax. A more palateable trade for the Lakers would be one that takes salary off next year’s salary total. That means we get the Raptors to eat either Sasha’s or Luke’s contract (assuming of course we’re not going to trade LO or Artest). We need Luke as a backup SF, and Sasha’s contract is shorter, so it makes sense that the Lakers would include Sasha.

    Thus, a better deal for the Lakers would be Deal #2: Bynum, Sasha, and Farmar, for Bosh.

    2. Back Court Production

    If we give up Farmar and Sasha, we’re losing 2 of our 3 backup’s in the back court. We would need to receive some sort of back court player, either SG or PG since Brown seems like he can play either, in order to compensate for the lack of production. Thus, I would propose Marco Bellinelli getting thrown into the deal, traded for a piece of either the VladRad or Chris Mihm Trade Exceptions, both sizeable enough to take on Bellinelli’s contract.

    So now the trade becomes Deal #3 Bynum/Sasha/Farmar/Trade Exception for Bosh/Bellinelli.

    3. The Raptor’s Tax Bill

    Because Bynum is BYC, the Raptors will be adding a ton of salary to their total, ballooning their tax bill on a basically .500 team. Thus, the Raptors would definitely want some sort of short term salary relief. This is where Derek Fisher could come in. Fisher obviously wants to stay in LA; everybody in the league knows this because of the situation with his daughter. Thus, if we include Fisher in the trade, the Raptors could buy him out on the super cheap (like $1 mil?) save $8 mil in salary and luxury tax, then Fish can take a 30 day break and re-sign with the Lakers. However, this doesn’t alter our 2010 salary level, making the deal less appealing for the Lakers.

    So this deal looks like Deal #4: Bynum/Fisher/Farmar/Trade Exception for Bosh/Bellinelli.

    Overall, if we can get the Raptors to agree to #2 or #3, I’m all for it. The league is going to a shorter, faster, more mobile C and PF, so playing Bosh at PF and Gasol at C won’t have too many problems. Some teams will give us trouble (the mythical beast known as “Healthy Boston” comes to mind), but Bosh’s sweet outside shot and Bellinelli’s deadeye from three probably outweigh any issues inside we have from losing Bynum.

  32. Eric – if the Lakers are fortunate enough to get to the Finals again this season, we would most likely be matched up against 3 possible teams. Those teams centers are Perkins, Shaq, and Howard. You mean to tell me you are more comfortable with Gasol guarding those guys than Bynum?

    My thinking is I don’t think Bosh matches up well against those guys either, which is why we need Bynum. So I maintain that Gasol for Bosh is a much better idea than Bynum for Bosh when you start thinking about Finals matchups.

  33. Since the post went up, I’ve been experimenting on Trade Machine and the best plausible trade I’ve came up with is Bynum and Morrison for Boozer and trade exception.

    I Don’t like the Bosh trade because of most of what Kurt wrote and letting Farmar go. If a trade exception would be allowed in place of Farmar then I would reconsider the deal.

    The other plausible trade I wouldn’t mind seeing is (2-Dennyk’s) which was a Farmar/Bynum for Hinrich/Noah swap.

    We have the most talented team in the league and Being able to keep the core would be the safest thing to do. That means as long as (Pau, Kobe, Ron, and LO) are still here we will still be able to produce the same product. Since we all agree that the Black Hole does not create an amazing triangle sequence or hustle hard on defense than I wouldn’t say he is a core piece in this team. Bynum is a nice fill for our center spot but not a core piece. Another thought in defense of trading Bynum is Moving Pau to center. If we get a PF in exchange it would mean more stress on Pau’s body while trying to guard centers all season. That’s enough reason for me to not want a PF in exchange for our Black Hole. Oh and btw, trading Gasol for Bosh= dismantling the entire team. We might as well trade Kobe for Roy at that point!

  34. I think it boils down to whether or not the Lakers management thinks that the Gasol-Bynum combination will reach their potential (based on the combined individual potentials.) If they think they will, then they won’t trade Bynum. If they think they won’t, then they will look for trades.

    So far, the Bynum and Gasol pairing hasn’t worked out as well as hoped, due to some combination of Bynum not putting out the effort/focus while Gasol is playing (which he admits himself) and the lack of much of an outside game between the combination of Odom/Gasol/Bynum. I think getting Bosh would address both of those issues. It improves the Lakers speed, too. Overall, Bosh is currently a better player than Bynum. They would lose some size, and some potential (I think Bosh has leveled out) at this point. But I have doubts about how much of his potential Bynum will reach (not sure he has the drive to be a great player; I think he would be satisfied with being good-very good). Bosh is still young, too.

  35. I can see why Toronto seeks Bynum. They have a plethora of bigs who shoot (Bargnani, Turk) and would welcome a post up player (since Bosh is not inclined to bang inside).

    For the Lakers, would it make sense to have Bosh/Gasol as we match up against our biggest rivals (Bos, Clev, Spurs, Denver, Port)? Furthermore, if we trade off our chips (Ammo, Farmar), what do we do about our PG situation? I assume that means that a Fisher/ShanWoW combo will have to do for the rest of the year.

    I would like to see how the Bosh/Gasol lineup works, since admittedly, I have been a Bosh fan for a while. It seems like a pretty drastic move to lose two key rotation guys (Bynum, Farmar) so late and to incorporate a major piece into the lineup. Then again, I think Bosh’s attitude and hustle would be much appreciated.

    Not really possible, but how nice would a Gasol + Gasol lineup be???

  36. Jeremy – “trading Gasol for Bosh= dismantling the entire team. We might as well trade Kobe for Roy at that point!”

    You obviously believe that because you think Gasol is better than Bosh and I may be in the minority but I don’t share that same opinion. I have been making this point a lot on this forum, but I don’t think Gasol is one of the elite players in this league. He is a very good player who benefits from playing in a system where he can post up smaller players and utilize his fundamental offensive skills. I just think he gets a little exposed when he plays against more physical players like what happened to him against the Cavs on Christmas.

  37. Rudy, Perkins does not scare me in the least his offensive skills are very limited and most of his points come from putbacks. KG scares me but Bosh could guard him and probably outplay the old man with his bad knees. Didn’t we already play Howard and look how that turned out, and finally give me a break with Shaq, when we got Gasol and Bynum was hurt Pau played Shaq very well when he played for the Suns. Shaq is VERY limited offensively nowadays he has trouble scoring against almost all teams just watch him play. The points he scored against the Lakers in the christmas day matchup was fool’s gold, Bynum played horrible defense on Shaq then go back and watch tape. So Yes I trust Gasol more than Bynum because A. Gasol is more reliable and B. Gasol doesn’t mentally check out when he doesn’t get the ball and I’m sorry why does everyone think Bynum is such a good defender. He rarely rebounds when Gasol is playing and he is not a huge shot blocker (though he occasionally gets some) but Gasol is just as effective in that department.

  38. Why does everyone think Shaq is so good, I have watched the Cavs play every game this season and in fact the Cavs are a worse team with him on the floor. The points he scored against the Lakers were on Bynum because Andrew had poor rotation and couldn’t guard him 1 on 1. I think all of Shaq’s points that game were on dunks, Gasol has played Shaq well on many occasions and Shaq is only getting worse and older.

  39. Let’s be honest this whole “we have the most talented team in the league” crap is not correct, we have 5 guys who are superior to most teams in the league, Kobe, Drew, Lamar, Gasol and Artest. Everyone else on the team is average or worse, although some like Shannon and Jordan have potential. Luke is a Great player for the triangle but I doubt he would do well outside of this offensive system in the NBA.

    The main thing about this Bosh trade is while not many may consider it seriously right now, if things do not go well this month and our record starts to slip alot and we fall to the middle of the West. You have to consider looking at this trade seriously.

  40. Rudy36- If this was a Memphis Blog 3 years ago I would be on your side but the truth of the fact is that we don’t need a superstar, we need guys that tie this team together. Kobe is all we need in the creating/scoring column but when it comes to guys that make the triangle beautiful Pau, Luke, and sometime LO come to mind, that’s it. If we get rid of Pau we are losing more than a 20/10 guy, we are losing the glue to our starting line up. For Pete sake the guy was running the offense remarkably the first week he came here! Talent wise it’s close but I agree he’s a better all around player. (just not what we need)

  41. Eric – I was more eluding to the fact that the Cavs went with their more taller physical lineup and Gasol could only put up 11 points on 4-11 shooting. You and I both know if the Cavs would have went with their regular starting lineup with Hicks at PF Gasol would have put up big numbers and everyone would have been saying how good he is. It is a fact that taller more physical players bother him.

  42. I have a few points about any Lakers’ trade that involves Bynum:

    1). First and foremost, this team deserves the right to try and win this season with the current group in place. Despite the team’s lackluster play in recent weeks, we are still the world champs with only one player changed from last season’s team. We are one of only 3-5 teams that have a legit chance to win the title (along with Boston, Cleveland, Orlando, San Antonio, and maybe Denver). I see no need to try and tinker with that in season with the addition (and subtraction) of a major piece (Bosh in and Bynum out).

    2). Building on that thought, any potential trade of Bynum is best executed in the off season. As Zephid lays out, the salary cap numbers and making a trade work under CBA rules means a lot of number crunching which means either the inclusion of more players than we’d like to give up or the taking back of more players than we’d like. Also, in the off season there will be more teams that are under the cap and many more “buyers” that will be willing to take on contracts. When we discussed trades a few weeks ago, I was a person that originally floated trading Bynum (I cited salary concerns and “balance” of our roster as the main reasons to even consider trading a player with Bynum’s talent, skill set, and upside as a player). But I argued then, as I am now, that in the off-season you can see what FA’s leave their current teams and what teams get left out of the feeding frenzy and are left with lots of cap space and no player to offer it to. I mean after Wade, Lebron, Dirk, Amare, and Bosh make up their minds about what they want to do there will be teams that have cap space that didn’t land one of those elite players. At that point, you’ll have second tier (but still really good players) like Rudy Gay, Carlos Boozer, etc that are FA’s and will want their big paydays. And if you’re the Lakers, and really want to trade Bynum, the teams that are after those types of players will be potential trade partners as they’ll have the cap space to absorb a large contract and maybe Bynum is a better fit for those teams than signing a Boozer or Gay type to a large contract. (For example, the Bulls may be this exact type of team. If they don’t/can’t land a Wade/Bosh type would they rather make a trade for Bynum or try to sign Boozer or Gay? At that point, would they look to give up a couple of pieces like Noah and Kirk for Bynum + a guy like Sasha?)

    3). I love Chris Bosh, and by all accounts so do people in the Lakers’ front office. Two years ago, before we acquired Pau, Phil basically said everything he could (while still trying to avoid a tampering charge) that Chris Bosh is a player that he covets. And why not love this guy? He’s a fantastic offensive player and is a very good defensive player. He rebounds well and by all accounts is a very smart player with a high BBIQ. When on the Olympic team (a different brand of ball, I know) Bosh often closed games at Center and was the fulcrum of Team USA’s defense. He played the back line extremely well, was a tremendous P&R defender, and communicated in a way that drew comparisons to Kevin Garnett. Bosh is no joke and is a difference maker. He may be miscast as a true #1 player, but on a team with Kobe and Pau, he’d be slotted properly and would get his shots and his numbers as his game is the perfect game for a PF in our offense.

    One last note on Bosh, team roles, and salary structure in general. I don’t know how he’d respond to being option #3 or (best case) option 2A. But when on the Olympic team, Bosh (and all of those other stars) showed that they could play a role as a complimentary player in a talent laden environment. Whether he could do that for multiple regular seasons and playoffs is different than doing it for one summer, but it’s not impossible. It would be an ego vs. winning test to the highest order, though. As for salary, this is where Kobe would need to be made aware of this type of deal and would need to make concessions on his own contract to get this done. *That* is the wild card here. Bosh is going to command more money than Andrew. That extra money must come from somewhere and I doubt it’s going to (all) come from Dr. Buss’ wallet. If Kobe were willing to drop his salary to 20 mil (with Pau making 17+), Bosh could be slotted into a number that is 2 to 3 mil more than Andew makes with little to no effect on team payroll. But, knowing Kobe’s contributions to wins and at the gate, is a lot to ask and I’m not sure if it’s even right to ask this of Kobe. He’s one of the main reasons that the Lakers are the home and road draw that they are and thus is the major factor in creating this team’s value (currently).

    So, in the end, I don’t know if a deal like this would work. There are a lot of variables that would need to be worked out. But, I’d be much more inclined to explore this type of deal in the off-season and let our current team play out the year to see if they can repeat. After that, we start with a blank slate (of sorts) and evaluate what the next step should be to continue to be a contender.

  43. This trade is just not happening. Besides the monetary issues as discussed, anyone who’s followed the Bosh/Wade/LBJ quotes over the last couple years knows that Bosh likes being the franchise player. He may, at best, consider playing with good friend and franchise player D-Wade. But to be the 3rd option on this team? I don’t think he’d be happy with that at all.

    Plus I just think Gasol-Bynum deserve a full season together before we decide to trade one of them. I’m not sold on Bosh defensively either. Yes, we’ve all seen the spectacular blocks. When playing alongside Bargs, he’s supposed to be the defensive anchor on the Raptors – a team that, earlier in the year, many thought were pushing to be the worst defensive team in history. Obviously I realize how much coaching and the system has to do with that, but is that team defense something you’d expect on the resume of a solid-to-great defensive player? I’d be interested to see what the PER/PER against numbers say about his individual defensive impact.

    Don’t get me wrong, Gasol-Bosh would be more mobile, athletic, and versatile. But the money makes this almost a non-issue (plus, as Stephen said, no way Jim Buss lets Bynum go after developing him for years) so it’s really not even worth debating.

    The Hinrich question is more interesting, partly because his decreasing salary is more palatable than Bosh’s. His defense is unquestioned (although his best defense, from what I’ve seen, comes against big PGs or 2s, not the speedy types we have trouble with). His absolutely putrid FG% scares me a little bit, although that may be a product of a broken system. But keep in mind Vujacic is shooting better than Hinrich this year. Let’s not overrate his shooting too much.

  44. we don’t need Bosh. Bosh is a power forward. We have a guy named Pau who is a pretty good power forward

  45. If there is any truth to this rumor, it is because:

    1. Bosh is as good as gone and Toronto needs to get something back now, before ge leaves this summer.

    2. Toronto knows that Bynum wants tos to be a focal point and doesn’t fit with Pau.

    4. Bynum’s camp is putting it out there.

    3. The Lakers know the Twin Towers aren’t working too well and wouldn’t mind shedding the salary.

    Whether or not this is an actual deal in the making, it could make sense. The Lakers may
    not want to re-sign Bosh. They could be perfectly content to play him this year, let him sign elsewhere and go after a Center/PF who just plays defense, rebounds, and passes well. Pretty much what Phil wants from Bynum now.

    Personally, I’vd been resisting the urge to comment about Drew coming off the bench because his real value comes against the teams that we need to be worried about. But, it’s starting to seem inevitable, even if it’s unlikely. This is the second year now, that Pau and Drew do not mesh well. We are much better with LO in the starting 5. Bynum’s camp knows this.

    I say this could be valid just because the Lakers wouldn’t mind being just as good, if not better , and saving money next season on.

  46. Rudy, I know what you mean Gasol played poorly but his head just wasnt in the game, he’s had poor games like that before where he plays scared but he always bounces back. And I wasnt eluding to you being the one saying Shaq is so good, I’ve just seen alot of chatter on other boards about the Lakers having to be afraid of him. The Lakers have more to worry about Zydrunas and his outside shot sadly.

    45. We have Gasol ur right but watch the NBA lately we need a more athletic agile player to compliment him, just look around the NBA how many true Centers do you actually see play? Aside from Kaman, Perkins and Howard I would say none. The NBA is heading to a more European form of basketball where Tall bigs who can stretch the floor are necessary to stay competitive. If this trade is made the Lakers could solve problems now and longterm as long as the financial terms are figured out to work.

  47. I’d just like to point out that all of the Lakers’ recent in-season trades – Gasol, Ariza, Brown/Morrison – happened with zero advance notice from NBA “insiders”.

  48. As for a Point guard let’s diagnose what we need for the position. We need someone who is a reliable outside shooter for kick outs off post ups, someone who has a high basketball IQ with smart decision making, and someone who is defensively solid to guard the Aaron Brooks, Chris pauls and Deron Williams. Really we aren’t asking for much, basically we want someone SOLID overall, a veteran who isnt too old like around age 29 makes sense.

  49. I’m gonna give the team a chance until January 31st on the road against Boston to see how good we are, and if our record does not hold up and we falter down the stretch. I will write a personal letter to Mitch saying pull the trigger on this trade and make it happen. It would be a Valentine’s Day gift to all Lakers fans for this trade to go down.

  50. Here’s one that I can’t imagine happening, but I think would work out really well for the Lakers.

    Charlotte gets- Bynum, Powell, Walton.

    LA gets- Felton, Wallace, D Brown.

    This fixes our point guard problem, gives us a spectacular 6th man, and allows us to start Odom/Gasol which is our best lineup anyways.

    I’m willing to take my chances with Mbenga helping defend the few centers in this league that can score.

  51. 25 said it all. A front court of Gasol and Bosh would be toast against Boston. Pau Gasol is a big 4. He can play center against many teams. But against teams with bona fide centers he is out of his element. Yes, there are only a few teams with bona fide bigs out there. It just so happens that if the Lakers want to win the title they will have to go through those teams.

    It is really simple, folks. Andrew Bynum needs to get it going. The rest of the team needs to work to get him going. They won’t repeat with Andrew largely missing like they did last season. The landscape has changed.

    Lastly, outside of the 2004 Pistons name another team of the last 15 years or so that made a major midseason trade and won the title. Shaking up a team in the middle of the season carries a lot of risks.

  52. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say I bet Kobe would trade Bynum for Bosh, he knows what Bosh can bring to the table and he doesnt seem to trust Bynum that much.

  53. One good trade that works in the trade machine Bynum/Sasha/Ammo for Bosh/Belinelli/O’Bryant.

    Cuts 4m for this year tax, gets ride of Sasha (and Belinelli gets only 1.7m or so next year). Also Belinelli is having a better season than Sasha and is a solid defender for an european shooter. Raptors would probably be ok with taking Sasha as Bynum is as good value for Bosh than they can get and Sasha fits well on their system. It’s worth pointing out that Bosh has a PO for next year worth 17m, so thats what he would be getting next if he stays.

    Now for a talent perspective, Bosh is a better player than Bynum today, but Lakers lost a lot in size and strengh in the frontline. The matchups would not be good against neither of the three main eastern teams (also Bosh-Garnett matchup has historically being very ugly).

  54. WOW – good stuff! Like what Darius wrote. I don’t really know about trades and salaries so can’t add too much.

    However, I love the Lakers. I am NOT a big fan of Bynum – to me he is lazy and doesn’t really have the grit and determination to be a dominant force. He just seems like he wants to score points rather than hustle, play good D, and grab boards. With his height and length – that dude should be clearing everything off the glass. He walks down the court – watches the balls bounce off the rim, and pouts on the bench. People keep saying he’s young but when you’re paid millions of dollars you better get your butt in gear.

    We definitely need a faster PG – love Fish but Lakers need someone who can at least slow down the CP3s and DWills of the league. We continue to struggle in this area. Also, need the 3 point shooter.

    So, I like many others – think this team is not what it’s all cracked up to be. I look forward to some great trades by Mitch.

    Maybe they should check with Jerry West since he always had doubts about our twin girls playing together. The dude is a genius!!! He probably knows exactly what pieces we need for our dynasty to be complete.

  55. 44) If today’s model for a good frontcourt is two agile power forwards, we have this lefty guy named Lamar Odom who fits that bill pretty well.

    Look around the NBA at teams that play true centers: Lakers, Celtics, Magic, Clippers. 3 of those teams have been to the finals in the last 2 years. The other is the Clippers.

  56. 51. If you think Pau cant guard Perkins your crazy, Perkins has one move and that’s a hook shot. Perkins benefits from playing with KG and Boston’s big three. While Gasol can’t guard KG, a tandem of Lamar and Bosh could stifle him.

    And lastly do you remember when Pau was traded to the Lakers 2 years ago, it’s possible to make trades like this work when you have a solid team and your integrating a talented player and still make it to the finals and even win.

  57. Kobe would have trade Drew for Kidd, and then where would we be? After the Pau trade Kobe admitted he’s better off not trying to play GM and leaving that to the professionals like Mitch.

    I will say this – Toronto should take this deal in a heartbeat if they want to move him. With the deals I’ve seen floated around, Bynum is by far the best player being named. But Colangelo may think Bosh will S&T if he decides to leave, so may hold on to him.

    53 summarized it well. No question Bosh-Gasol would be better than Drew-Gasol against many (probably most) NBA teams, just like Gasol-Odom is more fluid and potent in many ways. But it’s the matchups against some top teams that make me pause. I do not want to see Perkins on Gasol.

    Laker8884 – The issue isn’t guarding Perkins, of course, it’s Perkins’ D. The guy is a defensive stud and arguably the most physical center in the league, the type Pau does horribly against.

  58. 54, you forgot one team. The Spurs. Tim Duncan is a center now no matter what Pop says. And they have been to the top of the mountain in the last three years as well.

  59. “Without giving anything away, it is safe to say that this had been discussed within the organization at some level”
    -Kurt

    Could this be another salvo in the Phil/Jeanie vs Jim struggle?

  60. 56. Your right that trade for Bynum didnt make sense when it was for Jason Kidd, but when your getting more talent back in the form of Bosh I dont think you have to be an NBA GM to see this trade makes sense. And why is everyone so afraid of Perkins, KG is the one to be afraid of and there’s no guarantee he’ll even be healthy. Perkins is solid dont get me wrong but he is the LAST person on that Boston team I am scared of.

  61. Once they gave Gasol that extension, I thought it suggested Bynum was no longer in their long term plans, since it’s painfully obvious Gasol and Bynum don’t play well together.

    I think the fundamental question is will Bynum ever be as good as Bosh is now, while i think it’s possible I don’t think its likely, so they need to make the trade.

  62. 56. I know what your saying on defense Pau would struggle some but that’s the point of adding a big he can kick out to for outside shots, Bosh would balance any struggles on offense. It is currently what Lamar cannot do for the lakers which would be such an asset. Bosh and Lamar are similar in alot of ways but the big difference being Bosh has more talent and is much more consistent and reliable and he has an outside shot which he hits on a regular basis.

  63. Zephid;

    Absolutely brilliant post. I’m 99% for Deal #2; the only thing holding anything back would be Bosh’s integration into the offense amidst concerns of breaking down a championship semi-core. And did you check to see if the salaries worked out, after taking into account the BYC?

  64. Snoopy, you’ve been reading Dwyer, haha.

  65. Reminder: Gasol has been the center in a team that has reached the finals in 2 consecutive years (and won once). I believe that should be enough. I really think at least Lakers fans should know.

  66. 64. Finally someone agrees with me Gasol is just fine at center for us, anyone who says he isn’t hasn’t been watching the Lakers the past 2 seasons.

    On another note The Raptors played the Celtics today, if anyone needs convincing on how effective Bosh is against them. Well Bosh put up a stellar 31 points and 13 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 steals and 4 assists. Anyone who doesn’t want this type of play here hasn’t been paying attention. I doubt Bynum Could EVER put up these type of numbers against Boston.

  67. Simonoid – Actually, I haven’t recently lol. Which part of my comment was KD-ish?

    Sorry for the multiple posts, but I’d also like to throw this out there before out trade discussion comes to an end. I’m firmly against trading Bynum in most cases, but one player I’d be willing to give up Drew for is Marc Gasol. My questions: 1) does anyone have advanced stats to quantify Marc’s defensive impact and 2) How does Marc hold up against the physical centers in the league, like Perkins? (I haven’t seen him play against guys like that).

    The Marc vs Drew debate boils down to a simple argument: make your team stronger now, or plan for the long run? Drew will give us a franchise player to build around for the next decade. Marc is a very good 3rd piece that will fit perfectly next to Pau now.

    Personally, if Marc can absorb the beating from physical centers and anchor our D, I’d rather go for 2-3 more rings now than the chance to build around Drew in 6-7 years.

    65 – It’d be a little more meaningful if Garnett was actually playing.

  68. 65. Who was guarding him? I know Garnett’s out, so it’s Perkins, I’m guessing? What about Garnett on Bosh and Perkins on Gasol? How would that match up for us?

    And Wondah:

    I think you’re absolutely right; I suspect Bynum’s camp uses Vecsey to get their messages across. First the O’Neal thing (when he’s sick of getting dissed by Kobe, and can prove himself the man in Indiana), now this (when he’s sick of playing with Gasol and getting reduced numbers).

    Darius:

    Valid points, all – but perhaps the FO is considering this a half-season long experiment, where they could opt not to resign him to save cap space and sign a cheaper and scrappier center for our purposes.

    If it works great, then awesome, we’ll convince Kobe to sacrifice some salary to re-sign Bosh.

  69. I haven’t seen him play much.

    But according to the advanced stats Marc is easily Memphis’ top player, is their best defender, and is much better than Bynum.

    Not only that, but I think he would fit in with the Lakers better, is probably less injury prone, makes vastly less money, and given his rate of improvement might have a higher upside than Bynum.

    Needless to say I would much rather have Marc on the Lakers than Bynum.

  70. Snoopy – the whole Raptors can’t play a whiff of defense part.

    Also, Darius – I can see Jim Buss being opposed to trading TBD(warf), but supposed he got overpowered by Jeanie and Phil (who, BTW, is very high on Bosh – see his quotes a couple of seasons ago) for once.

    You don’t think the front office would think about getting rid of 3 seasons of near-max salary for a center who doesn’t fit too well in a championship semi-core?

    Perhaps Bosh’s high BBIQ can overcome the initial triangle complications to justify such a trade. If his two-man game with Gasol pans out half as well as Odom’s does, this trade is gold, even against the more physical teams.

  71. Snoopy agreed it would be a little more meaningful is Garnett was playing but the thing is I have seen Bosh do the against Boston even with KG on a consistent basis. He can hold his own against KG and a great defensive team like Boston.

  72. Back in November when Garnett was playing Bosh scored 20 points on 9 of 13 shooting and had 13 boards so believe me, Bosh is more than capable of holding his own against the beasts of the east, especially a healthy Boston team.

  73. L.A.’s recent problems boil down to their lack of any consistent approach on offense, and their off-and-on effort on D.

    I’m against this Bosh/Bynum deal for myriad reasons, but the key reason is he’s too much like Pau in terms of finesse-style play. Boston, Denver, the Spurs… they’re too big to expect guys like Pau and Bosh to hold down the line.

    That trade would be as useless as the Eddie Jones/Glen Rice deal in ’99 — seemed like it made sense at the time, but failed miserably come the playoffs.

    With Artest basically an offensive liability, and Fisher being the same, the Lakers are essentially trying to run an offense that’s Kobe and Pau/Bynum doing the scoring. Pau can’t shoot his face-up J this season for whatever reason, and since you can only have two guys on the box at once, how easy must it be to defensive game plan for the Lakers of late?

    A) Stop Kobe
    B) Double either Pau or Bynum, whichever is in the post; disregard whichever player is not in the post, since either of them are low percentage guys when away from the basket.

    Do those two things, and you beat the Lakers this year.

    What L.A. needs more than anything is a guy who can knock down the spot up 3s when the defense doubles elsewhere. Sasha filled that role in ’08, and Ariza seemed to take it on much of last year. This year, they have no one, so on offense it’s too often like playing two on five.

  74. Lakers&DodgersFan January 10, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    I’m not sure about this. Bynum hasn’t been playing so well lately, but he’s a true center and potential All-Star as early as this season. If we had Pau and Bosh, it might not work out, because neither are TRUE centers like Bynum. Chris Bosh is certainly a great player and has experience with Kobe (Redeem Team), but I’m not 100% sure about this.

  75. Bosh/Gasol/Odom would easily be the most devastating and versatile frontcourt in the league. Bosh doesnt have much of a back to the basket game but his face up game is unstoppable. He can even hit the open 3 ball if you give it to him (he rarely shoots it tho)

    He gets to the line at a higher rate than anyone on the Lakers, he rebounds well and plays his butt off.

    If we dealt him for Bynum we would be getting a steal.

    Gasol has already proven he’s a great center. He went up against the best center in the nba last season in the finals and outplayed him.

    Who do we need Bynum’s ‘physicality’ for? He’ll have trouble with Shaq and Howard. Atleast with Gasol at the 5 those players have no chance in guarding him. We might be a little lighter at the big positions but our offensive versatility would more then make up for it.

  76. Lakers&DodgersFan January 10, 2010 at 2:09 pm

    Chris J makes a good point. We need a guy who consistently knocks down 3’s, and since Ariza’s gone, Sasha has become nearly useless, and Ron Artest is not really a 3-shooter, we don’t have anyone to knock down outside jumpers consistently and end up relying on Kobe, which doesn’t always work out.

  77. No agent is stupid enough to stir it up mid-season if his client is on the defending champs with the best record – except for one, David Lee.

  78. 74. I wouldn’t classify Denver or the Spurs as being “Big”, Duncan is the Spurs only quality true big man and Denver currently is looking for another big man to compliment their lack of quality big men. Kenyon, Nene and Chris Anderson aren’t exactly that big and the Lakers showed this when they finally got Pau the ball late in the series so he could punish the undersized players. And truthfully you just proved what alot have been saying here today the Lakers need someone to consistently knock down an outside shot when Pau is doubled and well Bosh can and would do that for us.

  79. Lakers&DodgersFan January 10, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    #76,
    I get what you’re trying to get across, that Gasol/Odom/Bosh would be unstoppable, but none of those guys are TRUE centers. Sure, Gasol shut down Dwight Howard last June, but he’s also inconsistent. Sometimes he plays amazing and shuts down guys like Howard, but other times he gets soft and is non-existent throughout the game. That’s why I’m unsure about this.

  80. 76. You hit the nail on the head, and on top of that the Cleveland game showed we are incapable of guarding more athletic teams, by adding Bosh our defense would become much more versatile too and we wouldn’t have trouble with guarding teams as much. (although we will still have trouble guarding PG’s)

    And 78. I guess what alot of people are saying is with our current talent level in the NBA we dont need a true center, and we wont need one seeing as how the NBA is gearing towards more versatile big men and shying away from traditional centers.

  81. I would think picking up Bosh (or any potential FA at this point) would be more of a rental (i.e. no attempt to resign after this season). If the Lakers were just interested in the short term and needed to save money that might not be a bad idea: figure LO starts next year, and you might free up some cash to look for a guard in free agency. Bynum is really more of a long-term play, likely several years from his prime but potentially the face of the team when he hits it. This strategy has a lot of risk, even without considering the internal politics, but it also gives the Lakers a chance to make a really long run at the top.

    Throw in the added consideration that mid-season personnel changes are always hard under the triangle, and this team has had a hard time jelling already because of injuries. I wouldn’t expect any changes this year, unless there’s a pure salary dump (ala the Mihm trade) to escape some luxury tax.

  82. I’d immediately trade Bynum (or Bynum and change) for Bosh for one simple reason: risk. They are roughly equivalent (even if different) players, but there’s a much larger chance Bynum is affected by injury/attitude than Bosh. Bosh would steadily produce at a high level for years without any real risk; Bynum probably would, but there are lurking issues. That alone makes the trade a significant upgrade, so I’d do it in a second, mid-season or not.

  83. Another complication in a 3 for 1 trade for Bosh is the Raptors have 14 palyers on the roster and would have to be willlig to release one the traded players.

    If the Raptors really want Bynum this trade does work on the trade machine

    Lakers get Bosh, DeRozan (SG 2 yrs on contract) and O’Brant (C 1 yr on contract)
    Raptors get Bynum, Sasha and Morrison

    Not that the Raptors would do this but they would get something for Bosh if that is their goal and Bynum is the player they want

  84. In the spirit of Crazy Season, do you think the Lakers should pick up Gilbert Arenas for the veteran’s minimum after the Wiz void his contract? I don’t actually see any part of this happening (the contract void; Arenas resigning anywhere for the vet min; Arenas’ contributions outweighing his distractions), but other than that . . . it could be fun (Areanas can shoot, and might even be able to pass (under duress)) and it seems like the maximum annoyance factor for David Stern.

  85. Even before they played together, Jerry West speculated that Bynum and Gasol would not work well together–and he was right!

    I’d trade Bynum, Vujacic, and Farmar (or something similar as discussed by others) for Bosh. Once the Bosh for Bynum is agreed, everything else can be worked out.

    It’s hard to imagine that Bosh would mind playing for an NBA championship this year. Next year is next year.

  86. I’m not sure this trade makes sense from a financial point of view, nor am I convinced that Bosh would be willing to accept going from a franchise player to option 2 or 3. However, I must take issue with this idea that Bynum is insurance against bigger/more physical centers. When has he done such a great job against these kinds of players? Actually, Bynum (despite his size) has more of a penchant for ‘soft’ play than Gasol.

  87. Although I’m not in favor of the deal, if we can get Belinelli or Jack, I’m more intrigued. Belinelli is the shooter we’re looking for off the bench. Jack is the strongest defensive PG we can hope to acquire. He needs to cut down his TOs, but he seems like the type of player who would do great under Fish’s mentoring.

    And if Colangelo loses his mind and includes both in the deal, I’m all for it. But even one of those two would address a huge need.

  88. 86. Hehe, hopefully Bosh can convince Colangelo to include his best friend.

  89. Lakers win today by 20. Bynum goes for 30. (let’s hope)

  90. so, say we do trade for Bosh. Do we think he would want to stay after this year? If he leaves, we traded Bynum for nothing but cap relief. I don’t call that a risk mitigation plan, or planning for the future. He’s looking for a max contract, and we can’t afford 3 max guys. And anybody who’s looking for Kobe to take a pay cut to help us out is crazy. He’s the best player on the best team in the world.

  91. Game thread post up.

    And if we trade for Bosh, Travis, it will be a deal similar to KG with an extension as part of it. You are not giving up Bynum to rent Bosh.

  92. @ Travis

    do you know why Kobe is the best player on the best team?

    because not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 of the other top six players for the Lakers took pay cuts to play with the Lakers.

    Pau – while technically not a pay cut, his extension is a lot less than the maximum he could have gotten.

    Artest – he’s playing for less than the MLE, ’nuff said.

    Odom – he could have easily gotten a deal starting in the 11M+ a year range, as it is, he’s playing on a contract that averages out at 9M

    Bynum – sure there were injury concerns that helped lower his value, but this kid could have gotten the max from some other team if the Lakers had let him test the open market.


    Kobe legitimately shouldn’t have to take a pay cut – that’s not what I’m saying at all.

    what I am saying, is that this wouldn’t be the best team in basketball if his most talented teammates had not taken pay cuts, and perhaps he needs to consider that before signing a max extension.

    comments?

  93. Two salient points were made in this thread:

    1) David Lee is the only agent dumb enough to stir up trouble in this situation.

    2) The Lakers would stand to save a lot financially with a one year rental of Bosh and getting Bynum off their books. Maybe Buss doesn’t want to pay three max level players for the next four years…

  94. I hope the only thing this rumor accomplishes is driving up the price of Bosh for another competitor.

  95. One last note on Pau, Drew, and Bosh when talking PER and PER Against (imperfect stats I know, but just a way of measuring a couple of things):

    Pau as a PF: PER of 25, PER Against of 15.7
    Pau as a C : PER of 24.4, PER Against of 10.6

    Bynum as a C: PER of 21.2, PER Against of 15.7

    Bosh as a PF: PER of 30.1, PER Against of 11.7
    Bosh as a C : PER of 29.7, PER Against of 17.5

    I’m not going to extrapolate too much from these numbers. But, I think they do show that all three of these players are pretty damned good. I think they also show that both Pau and Bosh are two of the better and most versatile big men in the league and ones that are especially adept at swinging between both PF and C.

    For Snoopy, here are the numbers for Marc Gasol:

    Marc as a PF: PER of 23.4, PER Against of 9.6
    Marc as a C : PER of 22.9, PER Against of 16.5

    He’s not too shabby either, eh?

  96. I have to say, the more i think about it, the more i hope they pull the trigger on a deal for Bosh. Initially i had concerns, like others, about losing size, about matchups.. But really, Bynum has never had his biggest games against superior competition.

    As far as matchups, at least with Boston, i actually think we would benefit from having the more active and mobile Bosh.

  97. All the salary concerns go away so long as we can eliminate one of either Sasha or Luke’s contracts. If my deal #3 goes through, we’ll be shedding 3 mil in salary this year (6 mil with tax), and somewhere around $90 mil next year (adding in min contracts to fill out the roster). Our tax bill is still going to be humongous (like $25+ mil), but giving up either Luke or Sasha makes the deal possible. If we don’t, we’ll be getting hammered for over $30 mil in tax next year, which is not going to go over well with the Buss fam.

  98. 95. Great stats I’m sold with Gasol at C and Bosh at PF hard combo to beat.

    If everyone remembers on that long road trip last year where the Lakers beat Boston and Cleveland on the road, they were without Bynum.

    Basically against good teams, Bynum never plays much anyways he’s usually a liability against great teams so by adding Bosh we instantly gain another stellar player at our disposal.

    As far as Boston I actually think getting smaller and more athletic helps against them, teams like Atlanta and the Suns and knicks give them matchup problems and they usually get beat year after year.

  99. As a Celtics fan, if this happens, I will quit life.

  100. 99 – That’s good enough for me. I’m convinced. Let’s do it.

  101. I don’t think this trade will happen for many reasons. But if it does, I’ll be celebrating the entire week in frat party fashion.

    1) Obviously, we’d have another proven scoring option.. Bosh is clearly a better and more consistent scorer than Bynum.
    2) Bosh & Pau would make the team better defensively, especially defending the pick and roll. Every player can switch on a team playing KB/Ron/Odom/Bosh/Pau. And something tells me Bosh’s hustle and flexibility is much more valuable in today’s speedy NBA game than Drew’s defensive ‘skill’ set.
    3) I don’t care much for upside – I’d rather look at the history of a player. Bosh is already an All-Star putting up big numbers consistently, Drew is still ‘potentially’ a star who ‘might’ be slightly better than Bosh one day.
    4) Worst case scenario, in which Bosh decides to leave after the season, gives us a) some financial breathing room or b) chance to use him as sign&trade bait to land another player or two to address our needs.

  102. 99. Has me convinced as well. Do the deal.

  103. Um, you all saw Bynum in the playoffs last year right? Hurt or not, the guy shrunk like he had just jumped into a cold pool. Unless we get Belinelly trading for Bosh doesn’t solve our spacing the floor problem, but it does cause an different issue for teams – the Lakers will be able to play small and big again. Right now Bynum is plodding up and down the court circa Shaq 2004, and when teams go small on us (Portland, Cleveland, Denver, Houston, Dallas) we are almost always playing poorly. The Lakers risk a Mavericks/Golden State type playoff exit if we run into the wrong team that matches up small with us.
    Also, I can’t imagine Kobe not trusting Bosh if Gasol were to ever get seriously hurt. Right now when its Kobe/Bynum there is no trust in the offense and Kobe goes into teen wolf mode. With Kobe/Bosh/Lamar, we would be formidable. With Kobe/Gasol/Bosh/Lamar, we could basically just blitz teams. Artest could act like a Houndog on defense, and our spacing could be slightly better….

    If we added another real NBA player in place of Farmar/Vujacic, thats all the better.

    That said, haven’t the raptors been terrible on D the last few years?? That can’t just be Calderon’s fault, something to worry about.

  104. 92) Kurt- point taken on the extension part. But… Bosh wants a max contract, we can’t afford that. And as nice as it would be for Bosh to leave Toronto for LA, why would he sign up for something like that when he could do the whole “team up with Lebron or Wade” and have an equally successful future without having to play 3rd banana to Pau and Kobe.

    Having Bosh doesn’t solve the issue we currently have with Pau and Bynum, which is there is just not enough touches to go around.

  105. Ok, I just read through all 94 comments. I know it is fun to speculate but come on, this trade is not going to happen!

    Let’s not forget that the Gasol trade happened after we lost Bynum for the season, so we needed a big guy. A few people have stated this already: the only reason to do this trade is to save money for the future if, and only if, Bosh comes in for a rental. But, since Kurt says that won’t happen, then what point would there be to bring in Bosh.
    I think Bosh would fit in quite well for the Lakers if the trade happens. Being a big guy in the triangle is a lot easier than incorporating a guard into the triangle.
    But geez, the chances of this trade happening is pretty damn low. And in all honesty, I don’t see any trade happening this year. Besides Memphis, is there any other team really looking to help the team with the best record in the league?
    Even a trade for a 3 point specialist doesn’t seem possible. And in all honesty, wasn’t necessary last year to win a championship. Remember, besides Artest/Ariza, we have the exact same team that won the championship last year, with the same coach, the same style. I also don’t agree that we need a point guard who can “at least slow down” quick point guards. I don’t agree with that for the simple fact that there are no point guards in the league that CAN stop the quicker point guards in the league. As Kurt and the K brothers at espnlosangeles bring up, it’s not just a laker problem of stopping quick point guards, it’s a league problem. Quick point guards are stopped only by disciplined team defense. That’s the only way. And i’d love someone to prove me otherwise, because I’ve looked and I can’t see any defensive stoppers.
    @Jonny, I don’t agree with you 100%. I don’t think Lamar Odom was getting any more money from anyone this past summer in this economy. Wasn’t Miami’s deal less per year for the mid level? And I think Pau Gasol understands that he has a chance to win more games here at LA than anywhere else because of the personnel and the organization. He made the max at Memphis and never won. I think he puts a higher value on winning than on making the most money. And Artest wasn’t going to get any more money from anywhere else around the league. The plan was for a long term deal for the same money if he went back to Houston, since they are already paying TMac and Yao.
    I do agree with you on Kobe taking less than the max. The reason he should consider it is because in order to win, which he says drives him the most, he needs to sacrifice a few million so that the team can continually build around him. But hey, more power to him if he wants the max.
    But maybe this brings up another reason for a bynum for bosh rental. Free up money to max out kobe for the next few years without destroying the cap?

  106. Also we aren’t losing that much size – Bosh is 6-10 with a 7’3.5″ wingspan, and Bynum is 7’0 with a 7’3′ wingspan. Since Bynum cant jump anymore, we stay just as long and get more athletic.

  107. Last follow up I promise – and this is from insidehoops.com,

    Bosh’s vertical leap – 40 inches
    Bynum’s vertical leap (pre knee problems) – 37 in.

    Just sayin.

  108. Honestly, a Bosh/Gasol frontcourt makes me absolutely drool from the earth-shattering offensive efficiency that group would have. Pau’s superb back-to-the-basket play complemented by Bosh’s peerless face-up game would be a sight for the ages. As far as Bosh fitting in, that’s really not a problem. He demonstrated on the Olympic team that he’s fully capable of being a third or even fourth fiddle on offense, and his effort level was tremendous, especially in his superb pick-and-roll defense.

    If this is really available, I can’t see how the Lakers would refuse, and honestly, Bynum is the best player they would get for Bosh on the open market. Bosh’s free agency is a problem, but I’d imagine that Bosh wouldn’t be opposed to staying in L.A. and winning what would probably almost certainly be multiple championships.

  109. I initially wanted this trade a month ago. It would make Lakers a much more athletic team, but we would get killed inside because we would again be a team without a true solid center in the middle. The BYC really screws the one on one trade, so the trade doesn’ make sense.

  110. http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=974683

    Pretty good chatter on possible Wizards trades.

  111. People….focus. It’s all about doing a savvy small trade.

    We need either a PG or a legit shooter. That is all we really need to repeat with the same squad.

    Heinrich, Sessions, Mike Miller, Kapono, Marrow, CJ Watson, Earl Watson.

    By the way, is it that blasphemous to trade Fisher and Ammo’s expiring contract for a legit PG (and have Fisher be released and come back to the Lakers)? That would give us $10 million in expiring contracts (not including Farmar’s 1.9 mil)

  112. Bynum and Gasol are both averaging 11 FG Attempts per game. Bosh averages 16.

    Is Kobe going to give up 5 shots a game?

    The money is also a huge problem, unless the Lakers lose more than a single piece.

    Bosh for Bynum is a bad, bad move.

    Bosh for Gasol is far worse.

    Bynum for Noah is so horrible that Mr Nicholson might actually attack Mitch.

    Best record. Defending champions.

    Relax.

    Go Lakers!

  113. I really wish we wouldn’t discuss Kobe taking less money. He earns every cent plus some. The Players association would also come down very hard on him. The money leaders are there to help set the curve and improve the fortunes of the rest of the association. A player taking less sends exactly the wrong message for them and becomes a talking point in every other player’s negotiations. Probably a reason Kobe is waiting for a better economy to re-up.

  114. I’ll sum up my opinion on this matter with a single statement: the one and only man I trade Bynum for is Howard, Dwight.

  115. I missed the game last night. But by looking at the boxscore and reading all the comments, I think I can surmize that Kobe is full on struggling. Whenever I see those types of shooting numbers from Kobe, I have a variety of thoughts.

    1). Kobe should know better than to play this way. He’s a veteran of this system and knows how to play within the context of this offense. (One of my first stops the morning after a Lakers game is to read Dwyer’s BTB and, lo and behold, he had this same line of thinking about Kobe last night.) So, my first feeling is that of frustration at why he goes down this road. I mean, he really does know better and could easily switch gears if he wanted to and change his style of play by going into “decoy mode” and set up his teammates more.

    2). My other line of thinking is that Kobe is wired a certain way and there will be nights where, despite evidence saying that he shouldn’t, he’s going to continue to shoot the ball because he thinks the next shot is going to go in. Kobe knows that one or two shots can turn his night around and he’ll seek out shots to prove himself correct. This may be faulty logic and I think we’d all like to see Kobe make different decisions if it truly isn’t his night, but this is the guy we have and I’m willing to live with nights like this every once and a while. The reason I say this is because Kobe has shot himself out of nights that started poorly and he has been able to turn what started out a bad night into a pretty good one. Last night was a game in which the outcome was (seemingly) never in doubt. So if I was going to rationalize this type of performance, I’d say that Kobe continued to shoot based off the fact that he could get away with it. Would I really rationalize it this way? No, I wouldn’t. But, I’m just saying that there are other ways to look at a performance like this. In the end though, I’d just say that this was a spectacularly bad night from our top guy and leave it at that.

    Now some notes on Kobe in general….

    *It’s obvious, based off his shooting numbers, that his hand is bothering him more than what it was when it originally got hurt. Two or three games ago, Phil mentioned that Kobe reaggrivated his finger. I think we’re now seeing the results of that. I think we’d be best served moving away from a Kobe-centric offense, but I’m not sure if that is truly possible with Gasol still out. Fair or not, Kobe is going to take on a bigger scoring burden and is going to try to do more. That’s only going to change if…

    *The rest of the team needs to stand up and take charge more. The other night, after the Portland loss, Zephid made some salient points about Kobe’s shot taking/selection/volume and what our offense looked like. At the time, I wanted to make a specific comment, but could not find a quote from Phil I’ve heard in the past that spoke to my point about this. It just so happens that the K Bros asked Phil about this before the Bucks game and he gave the quote that I wanted to use . Here is the bullet point lifted right from the K Bros post:

    Phil Jackson reiterated he doesn’t have a problem with Kobe Bryant’s shot selection of late, saying that many of his 37 shots Friday at Portland came late after the Lakers fell behind and needed a push to recover. I asked him where that line between his teammates deferring too much and Kobe taking too much control exists. “I always tell the players they have to be strong willed enough to turn him down when he demands the ball (if) something better is going on on the other side of the court,” he said. “Until they develop that strength, we’re not going to bail them out.” One good example came in the second half of Friday’s loss, where Kobe tried to post up Martell Webster and Jordan Farmar spent maybe five or six seconds looking for Bryant and waiting for him to get open, rather than decisively going somewhere else with the ball. “that was one of the first comments I made to Jordan when he started the Phoenix series about three years ago, when he was a rookie, that you’re going to have to turn (Kobe) down sometimes and stand up to the abuse you’re going to get, or the verbal condemnation you might get from him. If he says why didn’t you give me the ball, you’re going to have to have a good excuse, or something’s going to have to come out of it. That’s a point guard’s responsibility.”
    I cite this just because Kobe is a strong willed player (most players of Kobe’s caliber are) and in order to play with one of those guys you have both respect that and trust enough in your own decision making to sometimes ignore the instinct to give that guy the ball. It’s no easy task though. Shaq used to yell at players all the time to “give me the #@$%* BALL!” and players would often do just that. So, I while I understand what Phil is saying, I also understand that the pressure of playing with a great player can lead to caving when that player is telling you to do something.

    This ties into something that I harped on a lot last season, but have not as much this season (even though this season it’s more warranted). We are not running our offense. We may see the foundation of the Triangle (all the players are in the spots on the court that make up a Triangle), but what we are doing is running a bunch of isolation sets from those positions. We’re running a bunch of post up sets where the pass into the post (be it to Kobe, Bynum, or even Pau) often lead to that player taking the shot. We’re running a bunch of dribble hand off sets where the guy that ends up with the ball is just taking a jumpshot. We’re seeing a gap in the defense and using dribble penetration to get to the basket and either score, get fouled, or (maybe) pass to the open man when the defense collapses. Sure, these shots are all products of our offense, but when strung together in the manner that I’ve seen, are not, in fact, our offense. Where is the backside screening with one or more players flashing open to receive a pass? Where are the pressure releases when the post entry is denied that would initiate cutting on the weakside? When was the last time you saw a player get a good shot on a curl into the lane? I could go on and on.

    What I’m saying is, if Kobe is going to be bothered by his hand (and he is) and we’re going to have Pau out (and we are) the way to play better is to run our offense. This will lead to good shots. This will lead to floor balance which, in turn, helps our defense. This will help our offensive rebounding. This will get our guards open jumpshots and our big men easier shots at the rim. There’s no good reason, none, for the Lakers to not be a top 5 team in offensive efficiency. The only way that happens (when you consider the talent we have on this team) is because we’re not doing what we’re supposed to – which is running our offense. (Sorry for the long post.)

  116. Most Laker fans might disagree but to me the Bynum who played those first 30 games before he hurt his knee the first time is MUCH better than the Bynum now. Sure he’s improved his footwork and offensive moves, but pre-injury Bynum was flying around dunking everything near the rim and swatting balls into the fifth row.
    He still is a very good player but he’s a much more conventional plodding center now than before that first injury.

  117. The only way Bosh lands in the Lakers would be if Toronto is willing to take Sasha, Walton and Ammo – and why in the world would they ever do that????

    I love Bosh and a Bynum for Bosh trade would be good in theory, but the fact that Bosh will be looking for max money this offseason means that a Bosh for Bynum swap means that Bosh will be a half season Laker leaving the Lakers shopping for a cheap center in the offseason (which won’t happen) and all but guaranteeing that our championship window is this year only.

  118. I disagree Manny, the Lakers have got to the finals two years in a row basically getting nothing from Bynum. If Bosh does leave, I think you would see the Lakers try to get an athletic defensive minded center that stays out of Gasols way.

    If you slot Marcus Camby in for Bynum you don’t think the Lakers would be just as effective.

  119. Bosh ain’t comin’. That rumor is flimsy.

    However, the rumor that’s around which I see as a lot more plausible is LBJ in a sign and trade in the offseason for Bynum, LO + Multiple 1st rounders.

    Do a little searching and you’ll find people of merit talking about that one.

    I would have thought it crazy, but it honestly seems plausible from every end. Maybe not likely, but plausible.

  120. Sharky, there is no way on God’s green earth that trade is happening . . . EVER. The people of merit you must be talking to must be dreamers who are clearly still asleep.

    Cleveland would laugh in our faces if that trade was ever proposed.

  121. Get rid of the ballhog! January 11, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    Who says no first: Bean for Brandon Roy, Rudy Fernandez, Jerryd Bayless and two 1st rounders?

  122. All of you are missing the point. Unless you are talking about a All-Star or Superstar, you have to have a legit point or center. We have the best 2-guard, a top 3 PF, a top 3 center. You guys are forgetting, Drew just came back before the finals last yr. The Lakers are struggling because of injuries. Kobe’s finger. Pau’s hamstrings. Ron’s head. Luke’s back. Let’s put the blame where it is due. Kobe is taking waaaaaay too many shots. He has a broken finger on his SHOOTING HAND!!!! There’s no way that doesn’t affect your shot. They would be better off picking a soft spot in the schedule and allowing him to get some rest. He now has some legit team mates. He should not be taking more shots than Pau and Drew combined!!!! That’s their problem. And mark my words, the taco unit will be better when Luke comes back. The offense flows better when he’s out there.

  123. Bosh attempted 20 ft’s tonight. Any player thats capable of forcing that many fouls would GREATLY help the lakers out. That’s also another laker weakness..

  124. He was also 6/14 from the field. Especially for a big guy, that’s terrible. Also he was 6/14. And u assume that he’ll get the same number of touches with the Lakers as the Raptors.

    Bynum was 7/14 yesterday without Gasol. That usually dips when Gasol comes back. So, if Bosh’s touches and shots go down, so will his free throws.

    And bosh was -17. against the Pacers.

    Stealing from Around the Horn: I’d sell this trade.

  125. 6/14 and 7/14 isnt much of a difference.. On the season he averages 52 percent from the field.. While bein the primary focus of the defense.

    Bynum averages 55 percent on the Lakers

    His ft’s will go down but hes attempting 9.4 per game (3rd in the league behind Dwight and Carmelo)

    At the end of the day this trade probably wont happen. There’s no reason to be fussin over it.

    It would be great tho.

  126. i would like laker acquire a point guard like chris paul. and then don’t sign kobe brayant let him go. if he want to stay then take a pay cut. finally go after lebrom james. what do you think? sound good idea. That’s a deal they should make this trade deadline.