Comments on: Around the World (Wide Web): The State Of The Lakers http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/ A Lakers Blog. Thoughts, reflections, and the odd rant on the Los Angeles Lakers and the NBA (even the Clippers). Thu, 09 Feb 2012 16:51:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: TheSTD http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-656118 TheSTD Sat, 13 Mar 2010 04:36:07 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-656118 16. Those are team stats, not individual stats. Is Adam Morrison also a great defender because he's on this team? Is Lou Amundson a great offensive player because he's on the Suns? 16. Those are team stats, not individual stats. Is Adam Morrison also a great defender because he’s on this team? Is Lou Amundson a great offensive player because he’s on the Suns?

]]> By: Jerry Nussbaum http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-656015 Jerry Nussbaum Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:05:21 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-656015 Farmar has really never been given the opportunity to make mistakes and continue to play. I can guarantee you if he played the 30 + minutes that Fisher plays, the point guard issue would be resolved. The only time in Farmars history that he started a game and played minutes was last years play-off game against Houston when Fisher was suspended. He scored 13 points, had 7 assists and held Brooks to a poor game. It was a huge win for the Lakers and it was on the road. He has never been given that chance since. Playing time and confidence makes and develops a player. ie: Darren Collison. Farmar has really never been given the opportunity to make mistakes and continue to play. I can guarantee you if he played the 30 + minutes that Fisher plays, the point guard issue would be resolved.
The only time in Farmars history that he started a game and played minutes was last years play-off game against Houston when Fisher was suspended.
He scored 13 points, had 7 assists and held Brooks to a poor game. It was a huge win for the Lakers and it was on the road. He has never been given that chance since.
Playing time and confidence makes and develops a player. ie: Darren Collison.

]]> By: alex v. http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-656010 alex v. Sat, 13 Mar 2010 00:05:23 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-656010 @15/TheSTD said "There is no NBA statistic that supports Derek Fisher being a good player." But there is. The Lakers are top 5 (or better) in every measure I've seen of team defense (usually top 3+, IIRC) and usually near the top of Hollinger's team rankings. Oh yeah, and the second-best win-loss record in the league. Like it or not, Fisher is a big part of this year's Lakers team. You can make the argument that the Lakers have achieved these results despite having Fish on the team. Or you can make the argument (as I have), that Fish brings still brings things to the table that help the team succeed, even as his skills fade. But what you *can't* do is say that the statistics completely prove a point of view and then go on to argue against the statistics you don't like. I think we all agree that Fisher isn't playing great. But what bugs me even more than the unrelenting negativism around here is the absolutism, and this latest round of "this proves I was right all along" crowing is just ridiculous. @15/TheSTD said “There is no NBA statistic that supports Derek Fisher being a good player.” But there is. The Lakers are top 5 (or better) in every measure I’ve seen of team defense (usually top 3+, IIRC) and usually near the top of Hollinger’s team rankings. Oh yeah, and the second-best win-loss record in the league. Like it or not, Fisher is a big part of this year’s Lakers team.

You can make the argument that the Lakers have achieved these results despite having Fish on the team. Or you can make the argument (as I have), that Fish brings still brings things to the table that help the team succeed, even as his skills fade.

But what you *can’t* do is say that the statistics completely prove a point of view and then go on to argue against the statistics you don’t like.

I think we all agree that Fisher isn’t playing great. But what bugs me even more than the unrelenting negativism around here is the absolutism, and this latest round of “this proves I was right all along” crowing is just ridiculous.

]]> By: TheSTD http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-655998 TheSTD Fri, 12 Mar 2010 21:51:07 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-655998 8. Good point, let's make a trade for Devean George while we're at it 11. "and numbers which might say something good about Fish (team defense rankings, opp’s shooting %, etc.) are clearly wrong (or show how the team carries Fish, or whatever)." Not true at all, the writer uses the team ratings to show that Fisher hurts the team less on defense than offense. His personal opponent against rating is absolutely abysmal. There is no NBA statistic that supports Derek Fisher being a good player, honestly. There are some that suggest he's on a good team and I wouldn't disagree. That's why we're sitting here talking about "intangibles" But there might be some stats backing up the theory that he's better than his replacements Farmar and Shannon, which really kind of says more about the young guys than the old guy. I just want to know why, in order to appreciate the guy for what he's still doing at his age, we have to be unrealistic about his current failings. If anything that just takes away from what he used to bring to the court in his prime if we pretend he hasn't lost something or minimize the importance of those losses. 8. Good point, let’s make a trade for Devean George while we’re at it

11. “and numbers which might say something good about Fish (team defense rankings, opp’s shooting %, etc.) are clearly wrong (or show how the team carries Fish, or whatever).”

Not true at all, the writer uses the team ratings to show that Fisher hurts the team less on defense than offense.

His personal opponent against rating is absolutely abysmal.

There is no NBA statistic that supports Derek Fisher being a good player, honestly. There are some that suggest he’s on a good team and I wouldn’t disagree. That’s why we’re sitting here talking about “intangibles”

But there might be some stats backing up the theory that he’s better than his replacements Farmar and Shannon, which really kind of says more about the young guys than the old guy.

I just want to know why, in order to appreciate the guy for what he’s still doing at his age, we have to be unrealistic about his current failings. If anything that just takes away from what he used to bring to the court in his prime if we pretend he hasn’t lost something or minimize the importance of those losses.

]]> By: Darius http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-655993 Darius Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:59:42 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-655993 Chris J, I would say that the Lakers - with Odom's and Fisher's statements especially - are actually acknowledging what other teams' mindsets are and how that is affecting them (the Lakers). So I think it's very fair for Phillip to make the statement that he did. Earlier in the year all you heard was the Lakers talking about themselves and what they have to do. And while those types of comments are still littered throughout all of their recent statements, a lot of what's being said is prefaced with what other teams are saying about them or acting towards them. This approach *is* different from the Lakers just because they've rarely spoken about anyone but themselves for the entire season. Chris J,
I would say that the Lakers – with Odom’s and Fisher’s statements especially – are actually acknowledging what other teams’ mindsets are and how that is affecting them (the Lakers). So I think it’s very fair for Phillip to make the statement that he did. Earlier in the year all you heard was the Lakers talking about themselves and what they have to do. And while those types of comments are still littered throughout all of their recent statements, a lot of what’s being said is prefaced with what other teams are saying about them or acting towards them. This approach *is* different from the Lakers just because they’ve rarely spoken about anyone but themselves for the entire season.

]]> By: Darius http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-655992 Darius Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:55:50 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-655992 Game preview is up. http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/preview-and-chat-the-phoenix-suns-2/ Game preview is up.

http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/preview-and-chat-the-phoenix-suns-2/

]]> By: Chris J http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-655991 Chris J Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:48:24 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-655991 "However, as we saw yesterday, all of this talk is starting to wake the Lakers up." Hate to keep harping on Phillip's writing, but what evidence is there to support this statement? The fact that the players and coaches are talking more about staying focused, or this or that - none of that means anything. The last we saw of the Lakers had them heading to OT versus a lesser team at home, until Kobe bailed them out yet again. No one should put any weight in anything the players or coaches say about righting the ship. They know what they need to do, and now's the time to do it. I'll believe the "talk" awakened the Lakers when I see them start to beat good teams, play 48 minutes consistently and case to need Kobe's heroics to topple non-contending squads like the Kings or Heat or Raptors. “However, as we saw yesterday, all of this talk is starting to wake the Lakers up.”

Hate to keep harping on Phillip’s writing, but what evidence is there to support this statement? The fact that the players and coaches are talking more about staying focused, or this or that – none of that means anything.

The last we saw of the Lakers had them heading to OT versus a lesser team at home, until Kobe bailed them out yet again.

No one should put any weight in anything the players or coaches say about righting the ship. They know what they need to do, and now’s the time to do it. I’ll believe the “talk” awakened the Lakers when I see them start to beat good teams, play 48 minutes consistently and case to need Kobe’s heroics to topple non-contending squads like the Kings or Heat or Raptors.

]]> By: alex v. http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-655990 alex v. Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:44:49 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-655990 My main objection to the Fisher article is that it seems to take the approach that numbers which show Fish are bad (PER, eFG%, etc.) are clear proof, and numbers which might say something good about Fish (team defense rankings, opp's shooting %, etc.) are clearly wrong (or show how the team carries Fish, or whatever). These things might be true, but it looks like there's a lot of confirmation bias in the analysis. Bottom line, Fish isn't getting minutes because he's great, or because he's flawless, but because he's better than the alternatives. And he clearly brings some things to the court. Would the Lakers be better if they had spent some money on a better point guard? Maybe. Probably, even. But then they wouldn't have some of the other assets they have (LO, probably Gasol or Bynum after this year). Another cheap veteran? Gary Payton didn't exactly work out. But the trade deadline has passed, and this is the team we have. My main objection to the Fisher article is that it seems to take the approach that numbers which show Fish are bad (PER, eFG%, etc.) are clear proof, and numbers which might say something good about Fish (team defense rankings, opp’s shooting %, etc.) are clearly wrong (or show how the team carries Fish, or whatever). These things might be true, but it looks like there’s a lot of confirmation bias in the analysis.

Bottom line, Fish isn’t getting minutes because he’s great, or because he’s flawless, but because he’s better than the alternatives. And he clearly brings some things to the court.

Would the Lakers be better if they had spent some money on a better point guard? Maybe. Probably, even. But then they wouldn’t have some of the other assets they have (LO, probably Gasol or Bynum after this year). Another cheap veteran? Gary Payton didn’t exactly work out. But the trade deadline has passed, and this is the team we have.

]]> By: Darius http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-655988 Darius Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:18:23 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-655988 Soon, Don. Soon. Soon, Don. Soon.

]]> By: Don http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/03/12/around-the-world-wide-web-the-state-of-the-lakers/comment-page-1/#comment-655987 Don Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:15:33 +0000 http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3192#comment-655987 Game preview withdrawal! Game preview withdrawal!

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