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	<title>Comments on: Fast Break Thoughts (Literally)</title>
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	<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/</link>
	<description>A Lakers Blog. Thoughts, reflections, and the odd rant on the Los Angeles Lakers and the NBA (even the Clippers).</description>
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		<title>By: R</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-668151</link>
		<dc:creator>R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Apr 2010 03:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-668151</guid>
		<description>Aaron @ 29 - Fisher is being dragged down by the inferior personnel surrounding him, actually. Why don&#039;t you see this?? 

Also, I don&#039;t like the sound of this quote of yours: &quot;When Farmar and Brown are in the game they are usually playing with each other ...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron @ 29 &#8211; Fisher is being dragged down by the inferior personnel surrounding him, actually. Why don&#8217;t you see this?? </p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t like the sound of this quote of yours: &#8220;When Farmar and Brown are in the game they are usually playing with each other &#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: alex v.</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-668017</link>
		<dc:creator>alex v.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Apr 2010 01:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-668017</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s impressive that someone can look at this (very well done) review of four Laker fast breaks with mistakes by four different Laker players and see it as a referendum on Derek Fisher.  Don&#039;t ever let it be said trolling isn&#039;t a skill.  Of course, half of it is just pasted from the last thread (and is already pasted into the next thread), so maybe it isn&#039;t much of a skill.  (It&#039;s also a perfect example of why this site has become so frustrating.)

I thought this was a heart-breaking sequence to watch, since I think Kobe would have found a way to finish on the first two as recently as last year.  (Farmer  and Brown still would have blown off the passes.  The only saving grace was Collison&#039;s decision to make a clean play on Brown.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s impressive that someone can look at this (very well done) review of four Laker fast breaks with mistakes by four different Laker players and see it as a referendum on Derek Fisher.  Don&#8217;t ever let it be said trolling isn&#8217;t a skill.  Of course, half of it is just pasted from the last thread (and is already pasted into the next thread), so maybe it isn&#8217;t much of a skill.  (It&#8217;s also a perfect example of why this site has become so frustrating.)</p>
<p>I thought this was a heart-breaking sequence to watch, since I think Kobe would have found a way to finish on the first two as recently as last year.  (Farmer  and Brown still would have blown off the passes.  The only saving grace was Collison&#8217;s decision to make a clean play on Brown.)</p>
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		<title>By: ray</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-667962</link>
		<dc:creator>ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-667962</guid>
		<description>Aaron, 

I never said he was a god.  But he has a damn good track record.  

And just for the record: saying that you are always right doesn&#039;t make you a god either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron, </p>
<p>I never said he was a god.  But he has a damn good track record.  </p>
<p>And just for the record: saying that you are always right doesn&#8217;t make you a god either.</p>
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		<title>By: Darius</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-667960</link>
		<dc:creator>Darius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-667960</guid>
		<description>#60.  I know what you mean - and I shouldn&#039;t have been so firm.  However, you&#039;re playing into the points that I was making about this argument against Phil - you gave individual credit to players like Walton and Turiaf and then don&#039;t go into any of the detractions for players like Sellers and King (who were bad players, btw).  I know that mentioned that I may have been selective in the players that I chose, but this argument is selective by nature.  No one&#039;s record is going to be perfect in any endeavor.  It&#039;s often cited that Joe Dumars is a great GM and the moves he made to build the 2004 title team are the evidence.  And, I buy into that.  However, if I wanted to say &quot;Joe Dumars is a terrible GM&quot; I could say &quot;he passed on &#039;Melo and Bosh and Wade for Darko&quot;, he traded Chauncey, he signed Gordon and Charlie V to huge contracts.  Both arguments are right.  

So, I came off as too strong and this is more nuanced than what I stated at first.  But, I still think it&#039;s a myth.  People claim that he can&#039;t do it, that he hasn&#039;t done it, and that he struggles with it.  To me, there&#039;s too much evidence against that to make those claims.  Is he the best?  I don&#039;t think so, but I&#039;m not saying he&#039;s the best.  I&#039;m just saying that he&#039;s not bad at it.  To me, that&#039;s a low bar to clear, he clears it, and hence my absolutist stance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#60.  I know what you mean &#8211; and I shouldn&#8217;t have been so firm.  However, you&#8217;re playing into the points that I was making about this argument against Phil &#8211; you gave individual credit to players like Walton and Turiaf and then don&#8217;t go into any of the detractions for players like Sellers and King (who were bad players, btw).  I know that mentioned that I may have been selective in the players that I chose, but this argument is selective by nature.  No one&#8217;s record is going to be perfect in any endeavor.  It&#8217;s often cited that Joe Dumars is a great GM and the moves he made to build the 2004 title team are the evidence.  And, I buy into that.  However, if I wanted to say &#8220;Joe Dumars is a terrible GM&#8221; I could say &#8220;he passed on &#8216;Melo and Bosh and Wade for Darko&#8221;, he traded Chauncey, he signed Gordon and Charlie V to huge contracts.  Both arguments are right.  </p>
<p>So, I came off as too strong and this is more nuanced than what I stated at first.  But, I still think it&#8217;s a myth.  People claim that he can&#8217;t do it, that he hasn&#8217;t done it, and that he struggles with it.  To me, there&#8217;s too much evidence against that to make those claims.  Is he the best?  I don&#8217;t think so, but I&#8217;m not saying he&#8217;s the best.  I&#8217;m just saying that he&#8217;s not bad at it.  To me, that&#8217;s a low bar to clear, he clears it, and hence my absolutist stance.</p>
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		<title>By: robinred</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-667954</link>
		<dc:creator>robinred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-667954</guid>
		<description>It’s a myth. 

___

Now who&#039;s being absolutist? ;-) 

Also, I know you have tremendous admiration for Phil Jackson, but that does not make him perfect. You make good points, but you are being selective as well. 


First, it may be, as is often the case, that his ability to connect with young players has declined as he has aged. Grant and Pippen are examples from 20 years ago. Other young guys on the Bulls--Hopson, Sellers, King--got run out of town by Jordan. Phil stuck with John Paxson for a long time after many thought he should&#039;ve switched to BJ Armstrong (sound familiar?) 

Second, as far as Parker and Kwame Brown, what happened there was Jackson had to play them since he had no alternatives. He famously called Brown a &quot;pusssy&quot; and of course got rid of Parker to replace him with a vet. 

Third, Turiaf was a very mature guy with a great attitude. Walton is the son of a guy with a phenomenal basketball IQ--who stepped down on his own so Phil would play Ariza. 

And yes, Vujacic helped the 2008 team. But how is he doing now? How did he do last year? And many here have commented on issues with Phil&#039;s handling of Bynum and Farmar. 

I really don&#039;t know if Jackson has an issue working with young guys, but there is some evidence that indicates it might be true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s a myth. </p>
<p>___</p>
<p>Now who&#8217;s being absolutist? <img src='http://www.forumblueandgold.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>Also, I know you have tremendous admiration for Phil Jackson, but that does not make him perfect. You make good points, but you are being selective as well. </p>
<p>First, it may be, as is often the case, that his ability to connect with young players has declined as he has aged. Grant and Pippen are examples from 20 years ago. Other young guys on the Bulls&#8211;Hopson, Sellers, King&#8211;got run out of town by Jordan. Phil stuck with John Paxson for a long time after many thought he should&#8217;ve switched to BJ Armstrong (sound familiar?) </p>
<p>Second, as far as Parker and Kwame Brown, what happened there was Jackson had to play them since he had no alternatives. He famously called Brown a &#8220;pusssy&#8221; and of course got rid of Parker to replace him with a vet. </p>
<p>Third, Turiaf was a very mature guy with a great attitude. Walton is the son of a guy with a phenomenal basketball IQ&#8211;who stepped down on his own so Phil would play Ariza. </p>
<p>And yes, Vujacic helped the 2008 team. But how is he doing now? How did he do last year? And many here have commented on issues with Phil&#8217;s handling of Bynum and Farmar. </p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t know if Jackson has an issue working with young guys, but there is some evidence that indicates it might be true.</p>
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		<title>By: Mimsy</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-667953</link>
		<dc:creator>Mimsy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-667953</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It’s the other side of the same criticism coin that says he can’t win without the best players.&lt;/i&gt;

Show me a coach who can win championships without having great players on his team, and I&#039;ll show you a flying pink unicorn... 

...is what I usually say to that. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It’s the other side of the same criticism coin that says he can’t win without the best players.</i></p>
<p>Show me a coach who can win championships without having great players on his team, and I&#8217;ll show you a flying pink unicorn&#8230; </p>
<p>&#8230;is what I usually say to that. <img src='http://www.forumblueandgold.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Darius</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-667951</link>
		<dc:creator>Darius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-667951</guid>
		<description>Jackson not being able to work with young players is a myth.  People don&#039;t give him credit for helping to develop Kobe or Fisher or Pippen or Grant (who were all within 4 years of pro experience when he started coaching them and have 18 championship rings between them) or Bynum (that credit goes to Kareem or Rambis) nor do they give Phil credit for getting the most out of guys like Smush or Kwame (who were also &quot;young&quot; players whose only serviceable years in the NBA were under Jackson).  He doesn&#039;t get credit for helping to develop Luke Walton or Turiaf or Ariza (all second round picks that are now serviceable role players in this league).  Instead we look at Jordan Farmar or Brian Cook or Medvedenko or Sasha (who, actually, had a key role on a Finals team) and say he can&#039;t do it.  Isn&#039;t that pretty selective on the part of the critics?  &quot;Okay, lets create a theory.  Let&#039;s not give credit for the development of players that we *think* would have developed under anyone, and then assign blame for the non development of other players.&quot;  Isn&#039;t that what is going on here?  Shouldn&#039;t we also point out that the young players that Phil has worked with have often been late first round or second round prospects?  How many coaches could get what he&#039;s gotten out of the players that I&#039;ve listed that aren&#039;t the stars?  Popovich?  Riley?  Surely not Larry Brown who is has a reputation for burying young players even more so than Phil.  It&#039;s a myth.  An old wives tale to create a chink in the armor of an all timer.  It&#039;s the other side of the same criticism coin that says he can&#039;t win without the best players.  That&#039;s a false one too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jackson not being able to work with young players is a myth.  People don&#8217;t give him credit for helping to develop Kobe or Fisher or Pippen or Grant (who were all within 4 years of pro experience when he started coaching them and have 18 championship rings between them) or Bynum (that credit goes to Kareem or Rambis) nor do they give Phil credit for getting the most out of guys like Smush or Kwame (who were also &#8220;young&#8221; players whose only serviceable years in the NBA were under Jackson).  He doesn&#8217;t get credit for helping to develop Luke Walton or Turiaf or Ariza (all second round picks that are now serviceable role players in this league).  Instead we look at Jordan Farmar or Brian Cook or Medvedenko or Sasha (who, actually, had a key role on a Finals team) and say he can&#8217;t do it.  Isn&#8217;t that pretty selective on the part of the critics?  &#8220;Okay, lets create a theory.  Let&#8217;s not give credit for the development of players that we *think* would have developed under anyone, and then assign blame for the non development of other players.&#8221;  Isn&#8217;t that what is going on here?  Shouldn&#8217;t we also point out that the young players that Phil has worked with have often been late first round or second round prospects?  How many coaches could get what he&#8217;s gotten out of the players that I&#8217;ve listed that aren&#8217;t the stars?  Popovich?  Riley?  Surely not Larry Brown who is has a reputation for burying young players even more so than Phil.  It&#8217;s a myth.  An old wives tale to create a chink in the armor of an all timer.  It&#8217;s the other side of the same criticism coin that says he can&#8217;t win without the best players.  That&#8217;s a false one too.</p>
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		<title>By: robinred</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-667948</link>
		<dc:creator>robinred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-667948</guid>
		<description>That’s been their approach consistently for years now, and the reason they speak well of Powell and Mbenga (and I suspect a contributing factor to re-signing them as quickly as they did after last year) is because they are consistently focused, working hard, and never say a word of complaint.

I agree, I do think that if Farmar was given consistent minutes and more of them, he would start to play a lot better. However, I can’t help feeling that with his age and experience we shouldn’t have to “bribe” him.
___

That may be the attitude of the staff, and, if so, it would indicate that Jackson does in fact have a problem working with young players. The NBA is not an electrician&#039;s union; seniority should not come into play. Powell and Mbenga may have great attitudes, but they still sit because the players in front of them are far more effective than they are on the &quot;94 by 47 hunk of wood&quot; as the great Chick Hearn used to say. The issue is whether Farmar will help the team to win more basketball games than Fisher will, given 30 minutes on the floor a game. If Jackson thinks the answer is &quot;no&quot;, so be it; but if he thinks it&#039;s &quot;Yes, but Farmar has to act a certain way first before I will play him&quot; then I disagree with that approach. As Hollinger said &quot;Everyone loves Fisher the man, but Fisher the player is killing them.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That’s been their approach consistently for years now, and the reason they speak well of Powell and Mbenga (and I suspect a contributing factor to re-signing them as quickly as they did after last year) is because they are consistently focused, working hard, and never say a word of complaint.</p>
<p>I agree, I do think that if Farmar was given consistent minutes and more of them, he would start to play a lot better. However, I can’t help feeling that with his age and experience we shouldn’t have to “bribe” him.<br />
___</p>
<p>That may be the attitude of the staff, and, if so, it would indicate that Jackson does in fact have a problem working with young players. The NBA is not an electrician&#8217;s union; seniority should not come into play. Powell and Mbenga may have great attitudes, but they still sit because the players in front of them are far more effective than they are on the &#8220;94 by 47 hunk of wood&#8221; as the great Chick Hearn used to say. The issue is whether Farmar will help the team to win more basketball games than Fisher will, given 30 minutes on the floor a game. If Jackson thinks the answer is &#8220;no&#8221;, so be it; but if he thinks it&#8217;s &#8220;Yes, but Farmar has to act a certain way first before I will play him&#8221; then I disagree with that approach. As Hollinger said &#8220;Everyone loves Fisher the man, but Fisher the player is killing them.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Pb</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-667946</link>
		<dc:creator>Pb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-667946</guid>
		<description>I definitely think Fisher needs to be replaced sooner than later. But the incessant nitpicking of Fisher&#039;s faults will not change PJ&#039;s mind, and his opinion is the only one that matters anyway. Please do continue to talk about Fisher, but do it with broader perspective and balanced stance. If he is indeed the worst pg in the league, we should laud him for doing anything well since he sucks at everything. Im just saying that whether you like it or not he&#039;s our starting pg for the rest of the year.

Delving deeper into our fast breaking woes, I can&#039;t help but notice that they lack the basic understanding of fast breaks in general. The reason for Magic&#039;s success as the best fastbreak leading guard was due to the fact that he was such a great finisher himself. When Magic lead fast breaks, the defenders had to respect him finishing, so they would make the committment to stop him before they are near the hoop. With Fisher he has no such skill. He needs to be on the left side so he can finish strong with his left away from defender, but even then his lack of athleticism can lead to getting his layup blocked. Also, he doesn&#039;t have that instinctive rhythm to deliver the pass at the right time so that the wingman can just go up and dunk or lay in without having to dribble he ball. Kobe, Shannon, and Farmar almost always take the worst angle or goes too fast. The lane fillers have to be running insync with the ball handler to create passing angles-meaning you can&#039;t be too fast or too slow. Our guards tend to go too far ahead often leaving alley oop as the only option. Clearly, Brown excels at this but Kobe and Farmar haven&#039;t been as reliable. Finally, Fisher&#039;s greatest problem is that he&#039;s not a great passer nor have great court vision. Brown also falls into the same category. Kobe and Farmar are better but their natural tendency or preference is scoring not passing. As others have said Pau and LO are the ones that possess he skills and qualities to be the most effective leaders in fastbreaks.

We&#039;re not the Showtime nor the Lake Show Lakers now. We&#039;re below average at fastbreaks now die to the fact that we&#039;ve lost Ariza and aged rapidly in the last couple of seasons. Our best hopes of fastbreaks are now LO led ones or Brown finishing on breakaways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I definitely think Fisher needs to be replaced sooner than later. But the incessant nitpicking of Fisher&#8217;s faults will not change PJ&#8217;s mind, and his opinion is the only one that matters anyway. Please do continue to talk about Fisher, but do it with broader perspective and balanced stance. If he is indeed the worst pg in the league, we should laud him for doing anything well since he sucks at everything. Im just saying that whether you like it or not he&#8217;s our starting pg for the rest of the year.</p>
<p>Delving deeper into our fast breaking woes, I can&#8217;t help but notice that they lack the basic understanding of fast breaks in general. The reason for Magic&#8217;s success as the best fastbreak leading guard was due to the fact that he was such a great finisher himself. When Magic lead fast breaks, the defenders had to respect him finishing, so they would make the committment to stop him before they are near the hoop. With Fisher he has no such skill. He needs to be on the left side so he can finish strong with his left away from defender, but even then his lack of athleticism can lead to getting his layup blocked. Also, he doesn&#8217;t have that instinctive rhythm to deliver the pass at the right time so that the wingman can just go up and dunk or lay in without having to dribble he ball. Kobe, Shannon, and Farmar almost always take the worst angle or goes too fast. The lane fillers have to be running insync with the ball handler to create passing angles-meaning you can&#8217;t be too fast or too slow. Our guards tend to go too far ahead often leaving alley oop as the only option. Clearly, Brown excels at this but Kobe and Farmar haven&#8217;t been as reliable. Finally, Fisher&#8217;s greatest problem is that he&#8217;s not a great passer nor have great court vision. Brown also falls into the same category. Kobe and Farmar are better but their natural tendency or preference is scoring not passing. As others have said Pau and LO are the ones that possess he skills and qualities to be the most effective leaders in fastbreaks.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re not the Showtime nor the Lake Show Lakers now. We&#8217;re below average at fastbreaks now die to the fact that we&#8217;ve lost Ariza and aged rapidly in the last couple of seasons. Our best hopes of fastbreaks are now LO led ones or Brown finishing on breakaways.</p>
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		<title>By: Zephid</title>
		<link>http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2010/04/22/fast-break-thoughts-literally/comment-page-2/#comment-667936</link>
		<dc:creator>Zephid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forumblueandgold.com/?p=3839#comment-667936</guid>
		<description>31, your absolutist attitude is what prevents me from respecting you.  If you respected others and the tentativeness of all the analysis we do around here, it would be easier for me to respect your ideas.  Sadly, you have yet to understand this, so you have not earned my respect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>31, your absolutist attitude is what prevents me from respecting you.  If you respected others and the tentativeness of all the analysis we do around here, it would be easier for me to respect your ideas.  Sadly, you have yet to understand this, so you have not earned my respect.</p>
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