Records: Lakers 10-8 Nuggets 11-7
Offensive ratings: Lakers 110.7 (7th); Nuggets 107 (15th)
Defensive ratings: Lakers 105.6 (13th); Nuggets 101.1 (2nd)
Projected Starting Lineups: Lakers: Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm
Nuggets: Allan Iverson, Anthony Carter, Carmelo Anthony, Kenyon Martin, Marcus Camby
The Nuggets Coming In: After an up and down start, we all have some questions about this Nuggets team — and who better to ask about those issues than the Nugg Doctor, one of the better team blogs around. Here are his answers to my questions, but be sure to go to his site for the questions I answered — they seriously think Sasha was acting when he was choked by Melo last game.
1) The offense is a surprising weak link with the Nuggets so far. Is that the lack of structure (something you complained about) or what else is going on here?
All of the offensive problems the Nuggets have run into so far this year have been because of too much individual effort and not enough team effort. In games that the Nuggets have won, they almost always record 25+ assists. But, as we saw in the game against the Rockets, eight assists or a similarly low total almost surely means the Nuggets take the L.
2) You’ve expressed frustration with the inconsistency of the Nuggets this season (a familiar refrain for Lakers fans). Can you put your finger on why the Nuggets fall prey to this?
The main aspect of the consistency conundrum the Nuggets get faced with is leadership. AI is a great scorer and creator, but I’m not sold on his leadership abilities. Carmelo is just not vocal enough at this point in an otherwise fine career to get the job done every night either. Anthony Carter has comeback from injury and is helping us, but until Chucky Atkins comes back from his groin pull, or Coach George Karl decides he wants to work the sidelines, the Nuggets are going to experience stretches where there is no clear leadership.
3) The Nuggets have a lot of talent, but does it have the right balance and role players to reach the next level? If not, what type of changes would you want to see? I would just like to see the Nuggets get a full roster of players healthy for once!
I think that we have the role players on the roster, but guys like Nene, Chucky Atkins, and Steven Hunter are definitely three of our best in this department and they are unavailable. Right now, I look at the Nuggets as a team with their meat and potatoes, (i.e. Carmelo, AI, and Marcus Camby), on their plate, but they are missing their au jus sauce and red wine to wash it all down with.
4) Do you still see this team as a potential Western Conference Champion come the playoffs?
Yes, I do still see this team going as far as the Western Conference finals if, and when, they get everyone back and the chemistry can develop. My reasoning behind such a bold statement is Denver is arguably one of the deepest teams in the west at full strength and also one of the most talented. The Nuggets have guys on their bench that would start for a lot of teams in the NBA this year and if we can find the right rotation recipe and have everyone buy into the schematic that will result in good team play then I believe there is not a team in this league that the Nuggets can’t beat!
The Lakers Last Night: Kwame Brown and Ronny Turiaf are watching at home, Andrew Bynum is watching from the dressing room feeling sick and taking fluids, Kobe hasn’t eaten all day because of the flu — and the Lakers still cruise to a win. Yes, it was Minnesota, but a road win when you are limping along is a good thing, I don’t care who its against.
Good to see Chris Mihm step up. The guy has taken some heat from Lakers fans but he is clearly not the athletic Mihm from before the injury. Yesterday was a step forward, however.
Then there was Trevor Ariza, getting his first serious burn and basically demanding more run because of his play. Good defense, getting to the rack, playing within himself. His defense against other second units could be a terror that creats some fast breaks for the Lakers.
Let’s just hope everyone is healthy tonight.
Keys To The Game: Getting Kobe and Fisher the entire fourth quarter off last night is a big plus, but this is still a tough game for the Lakers. Denver will be a little more motivated than the average regular season game after the embarassment of last week.
The Lakers need to take care of the ball — turnovers got the Nuggets the big lead last game, then when the Lakers shut off that faucet they were able to come back. Kobe is going to have to have a big game, and Odom is going to have to play better defense on Melo than he did last game.
Where you can watch: Game time is 6 p.m. (Pacific). In Los Angeles tune into KCAL (9), nationally you get the joy that is ESPN.
chris says
even Farmar got some 4th quarter rest thanks to the play of J Critt, he was another bright spot last night.
any word on Ronnie coming back tonight? how about Andrew’s status? anyone heard anything?
ya know, I think sasha was acting a little bit, sure he caught a hand at the throat, but he did a little acting to sell it some…in my humble opinion.
for me last night, the bright spots were Critt, and Trevor, it was good to see them get some PT, and I hope they develop into long time Lakers. while we are struggling at times…the future does look pretty good, with our young core of Farmar, critt, ‘Drew, ronnie, Trevor, and who ever we get this year, cause we probably won’t make the finals, and should get a pretty good draft pick.
but the over lap of these young guys, with the prime period of 2 to 3 more years with kobe, Fish, etc, should result in some good showings for the lakes.
Bobby Smith says
Kurt,
I’m confused–did you say you liked the Lakers chances better than Phoenix in a best of 7 playoff series? Doesn’t that contradict everything we’ve seen for the last 2 years (specifically us getting murdered last year in the playoffs)? I’d guess just about every Lakers fan would pick–based on what we know right now–Phoenix if they had to bet their house on that series. I hate Phoenix, but I wouldn’t need to think more than 2 seconds to pick them in the series against the Lakers.
Kurt says
2. Maybe I phrased that poorly — I don’t like our chances better than Phoenix in a seven game series (the Suns are still the favorite). Rather, I think we stand a better chance in a seven game series than catching them in the regular season. I think in a series we create some real matchup problems for the Suns, especially now that Andrew can score inside consistently (remember the success the Lakers had two seasons ago when Kwame could do that).
RG73 says
Denver’s front line is as injury prone as the Lakers (if not more): Camby, Nene, Kmart, Hunter have all missed a significant amount of time in their careers to injury. This reason alone is enough to keep them from having a shot at being a top tier team in the West. Both Hunter and Nene will be out until at least sometime in January. Factor in that they’ll need time to get back into game shape, and you’re looking at post-all star break before those guys are contributors again. And in that span it is likely that both Kmart and Camby will go down for some significant time.
Then you have the fact that their roster is populated with low percentage volume shooters—AI, JR Smith, Chucky, all sub 44% career shooters. Their PG, Carter, though not a volume shooter, is a career 38% shooter.
So you have little offense from the C or PF position (though certainly plenty of rebounding and shot blocking), and unreliable health. Abysmal shooting from the guards (not to mention a decided lack of defense). Then you get to turnovers. They average more than the Lakers at 16.7 per game, worst in the league. AI and Melo alone are locks to cough it up 6-7 times between the two of them (much like Kobe+Odom). Smith gives you another 2. Then you get another 7 or so with everyone else. Not sure how a team that coughs it up almost 17 times a game has any shot at contention at all, no offense to the good Nugg Dr.
Denver, structurally, has similar problems to the Lakers–no consistent inside scoring, unreliable health among their Fs and Cs, low basketball IQ players, turnover prone, inconsistent, etc. In fact, the teams are almost identical in many areas–both score 106 per game, give up 101.6, allow 44% shooting against…the Lakers shoot a little better (about 1.5%), rebound a little better, the Nuggets force more turnovers. Pretty even really–I think both teams are solidly 2nd tier playoff teams in the West. Looking at offensive-defensive rating, Denver is 4.69, the Lakers 4.36. Compare that to the 10.66 for the Spurs or 14.48 for the Celts and its obvious why it is ridiculous to think either team is going as far as the conference finals.
RT says
Just a quick note comparing this year’s Lakers to last year. Out of their ten wins 8 have been by double digits and 5 of them have been by more than 20 + points. All of last year the Lakers had only 3 wins by 20+ points. Perhaps their 10-8 record is better than it looks.
Kurt says
4. I agree, I think if your a Nuggets fan you think there is another level if everything goes right and everyone is healthy come playoff times. But, like the Lakers, that is a lot of “ifs” that have to come together just right. And I hate to bank on that.
5. I said it yesterday — point differential suggests the Lakers are 53-54 win team right now, but that still would be 6th or 7th in the West.
exhelodrvr says
Kurt,
“Rather, I think we stand a better chance in a seven game series than catching them in the regular season”
I agree; especially with Kobe (if he gets hot at the rignt time …) and with the match-up problems that Lamar poses for Marion.
exhelodrvr says
5) It is still too small a sample size; the scheduling/opponent’s injuries were significant factors in that early stretch.
Hebisner says
The loss of Rony is big for this Laker team. His defense and rebounding in the paint is critical to their success. Look for Denver to exploit this tonight. Mihm is simply not physically capable of doing what Rony does. Lamar is the key tonight. Force Melo to play defense and crash the backboard for offensive rebounds.
I really believe that Lamar’s defense on Melo was not that bad. He is too good to keep under wraps. The strategy with him is to keep him away from the rim. Make him shoot the ball and avoid fouls. He can put the ball on the floor, crash the backboard and get to the line, that’s his best game. We can live with his jumper, not his dunks and foul shots. Outrebound these guys and limit their attempts by not turning the ball over and the Lakers can win.
TC says
I think the Nugget blogger is overly optimistic about his team’s prospects for this year. Yes, all things being equal, they’re a deep team and very talented……but how often does that happen for anyone? And it certainly isn’t happening for the Nuggs right now. The longer it goes on, the more challenging their path to success in the playoffs.
Re: Sasha; don’t know if there are any other soccer (it’s really football…you know…..they use their feet more than about 10% of the time) fans here, but if you watch any European soccer, the question of flopping has been an issue for a long time. Now a lot of the non-American guys who probably are soccer fans (Vlade Divac, Sasha, Varejao, Ginobili) they watch soccer and the way that defenders in soccer take tackles has an influence on how they take drives to the hoop. If you think flopping is a serious issue here, just watch some soccer. Guys have crazy reputations there for being floppers……but the thing is, the refs largely don’t buy it. That’s the only way to address it. But really, the problem is much worse in soccer than in hoops…and I agree that Sasha has a tendency to make himself a nuisance and he might be considered the Boy Who Cried Wolf and might be annoying in his seemingly unending lobbying of refs, but just because someone’s paranoid doesn’t mean someone isn’t watching them. Just because Sasha might whine a bit doesn’t mean Carmelo didn’t choke him. To me it seemed fairly clear that was at least a tech; not sure it should have been two, but I’ll accept the judgment. Anyway, my point was, if you think flopping in the NBA is bad, just watch a bit of football and it will seem a lot better; also, you might understand where some of the non-American guys get their ideas about selling fouls.
Hebisner says
Another quick comment, I really like what Farmer is doing in terms of his shot selection. He is not simply firing the bill from three all the time. He moves the ball around, uses the triangle to get a better shot. He usually takes his threes after time has elapsed on the clock, with a decent look at the basket and rebounders in positon. Everyone on the team who likes to shoot the three should be doing this more often. The Lakers are at their worst when they jack up shots early in the clock. They have a great offensive system, they should leverage it more often.
lakerade says
You try having someone grab your throat to stop you from running by them and see if you don’t fall to the ground… the alternative would’ve been to swipe at that choke to remove the hand but Sasha probably would’ve been called for an offensive foul for that. Acting or not, he did not retaliate but rather made the right play to get the call. The real issue is that Melo is becoming notorious for losing his head like that, almost as sure a thing as multiple Warriors getting ejected when they lose playoff games. KCAL probably won’t dwell on it much, but I bet ESPN has that choke clip from 10 different angles… no wait, they like Melo, they’ve destroyed all evidence of it ever happening. Or they’ve super-imposed Kobe’s head onto Melo’s body so they can still talk about how much Kobe hates his teammates and where he’d rather play instead.
Kurt says
I got this from The Rake via True Hoop, re: last night’s game:
“During a Wolves’ timeout in the second quarter, Gerald Green spent the entire time well removed from the circular huddle, where, you know, he might glean some information that would improve on his reputation for not knowing where to go in the offensive and defensive sets. Instead Green was conversing with the injured Ratliff near the end of the bench. Twelve seconds after play resumed, Gomes picked up his third foul and with McCants also saddled with three, Sichting sent Green into the game. Thirty eight seconds after that, Green receives a pass just over center court from McCants for his first touch. Kobe and Lakers’ rookie Jarvis Crittenton immediately sneak up behind Green and knock the ball from his grasp, resulting in a ruthlessly gorgeous, but rather embarrassing to Green, breakaway slam by Kobe. Two or three years from now, Gerald Green will be back in his old neighborhood, alternately bragging about his NBA career and complaining how he got screwed because nobody gave him a chance to play.”
http://www.rakemag.com/2007/12/three-pointer-awfully-casual
kwame a. says
Hebisner- for the most part i agree with you, but I’d like Jordan to not fall into the habit of pulling up in transition for the three, that’s the only one I’d say he should stop taking with regularity (although it is a pg’s favorite shot to hit)
10- Big soccer fan here. My favorite thing Sasha has brought this year, aside from instant offense, is his soccer-style headband.
Kurt says
Lots of soccer fans here, including me (Newcastle). And you’re right, I like the way soccer refs deal with flopping for the most part, but at times they get suckered in, part of the reason players continue to do it.
And how the heck is Man City doing it?
kwame a. says
15-is the manager getting the axe? A manager change is paying dividends for my team (chelesa).
Lamar Odom says
Lamar’s gonna bring it tonight. Lamar has had Lamar’s name circled about in trade talks too much and this caused a distraction for Lamar. Lamar will try to have a great game tonight. Lamar is looking for redemption. Lamar will D-up Melo.
harold says
Nuggets are like the Rockets – talented on paper. It’ll be a while until I consider them a contender for anything – they’re not going to get past the first round in the west when your 1-4 seeds will be DAL, PHX, SA and Utah.
As for the lakers, as much as they got killed by PHX, I have to agree with Kurt that PHX is our best shot in a series, and the most realistic one too since i don’t see us getting the #5 seed. Besides, we have seen very much of PHX, with Lamar showing consistency, while for PHX, Lakers will be a different team with Bynum and the bench developing.
For tonight’s game, I’m interested to see whether Melo will keep his cool head. He is too young and too wrapped up in ‘tough guy wannabe-mode’ so I’m half betting that he’ll have a meltdown or breakdown of somekind tonight. Not that I don’t like the guy or anything, but W at any cost at this point…
Brian P. says
Lamar will be inconsistent, because that is Lamar
chris says
I don’t think I’ve seen any answer to my question, (#1)
what’s the status on ronnie and drew tonight?
Goo says
Lamar is inconsistent because his skill set is inconsistent..
He’s not really a post up player so you can’t bank on that..he’s not really a jump shooter so you can’t expect him to nail 20 foot J’s or hit open 3’s..and if you have someone speedy enough to keep up with his drives then there goes his bread and butter..
It reminds me of Dirk in the playoffs, the last two years he’s faced McGrady and Stephen Jackson as his primary defenders who took away his ability to drive but could still stay in his face..and he didn’t have the post up game to punish smaller defenders
Kurt says
1/20. Turiaf is not with the team (updated today on the Lakers site). Drew is a gametime decision and I haven’t seen anything. But don’t worry, Ric Bucher is on the case…..
ryan says
22. Ric Bucher is on the case…. So that means if he doesn’t play its because Kobe doesn’t want to play with him and wants to be traded. And if he does play its becuase Kobe wants to be traded.
RG73 says
In regards to Ronny’s injury being a big loss to the team, I just don’t see it. I know it is an unpopular view because Ronny is a great guy, always enthusiastic, always energetic, but the numbers just don’t support him bringing a whole lot to the floor in terms of real impact. His offensive rating is below the team average, his defensive average above it. Defensive rating improves +7.8 when he’s off the floor. Net negative PER, negative +/-, awful 31% eFG% on his outside shots (50% of his total), rebounds, turns the ball over and blocks shots at about the same rate as Kwame, but gets a foul every 8 minutes doing it.
Now all this isn’t to say that he’s terrible–he’s comparable, at least superficially by the numbers, to guys like Milsap, or Mikki Moore, Brandon Bass–20 mpg PF/Cs off the bench who give you energy, hustle, etc. But what exactly is he “doing in the paint” that Mihm can’t do? He is giving up 69% eFG% to opposing 5s, 52% to opposing 4s. Mihm is 55% and giving up a much lower opponent PER than Turiaf. On/off Mihm is a -9.5, Turiaf -9.9. You can attribute that to Ronny’s ankle, but I think Mihm gets more of a pass with that same excuse. The fact is that this team is getting next to nothing from any PF or C not named Andrew Bynum. Kwame, Ronny, Mihm, Odom, and Vlad are all net negatives on the floor (and usually the team does better with them on the bench). And opponent FG% goes up whenever Mihm, Ronny or Vlad sit (Odom and Kwame are positives in this regard). So Ronny being there or not has very little outcome on the game–despite his energy and hustle. The numbers say we’re better off without him (and, unfortunately perhaps, better with Odom at the 4).
Kurt says
Some scouting report action, one of the great additions to the Lakers.com Web site this season:
Coach Karl wants Anthony to drive more and shoot 10 free throws a game. We want to crowd him defensively, contesting his shot. We know that Anthony prefers the right side of the floor/block, but is finding himself more on the left block, so he isn’t as predictable. In the game last week they were effective with some simple actions. They would simply run a “DROP†for Anthony to post/iso on the right side. One of the dangers of this play is that if we overplay then Anthony will spinout and get the lob. They do a great job with this and other actions that get them lobs. Iverson was effective in simple high screen and rolls.
Denver doesn’t call a lot of plays, as they want to spread you out and attack. They do, however, want to move the ball from side to side. This is not a great execution team. Denver wants to run off their defense,
nomuskles says
@10. In my opinion, flopping is not just a problem for European soccer. It’s a problem for almost all of professional soccer. Has Sasha expressed a huge affinity for soccer? Steve Nash has, and he doesn’t get much accusation for being a foreign, soccer-loving flopper. So i’m not sure the soccer/foreign explanation is enough on its own to explain Manu Ginobili’s (or anyone’s) flopping.
Re: Sasha flopping, did the Nugg Doctor explain why he felt Sasha had flopped? I missed most of the replays while doing some laundry, so I’m not sure how much it looked overemphasized, but the one view I caught didn’t seem overly incredible. No one on the Nuggets really complained about the call, not even Melo himself. Was Melo fined for the incident?
I bring this up because last year, Kobe was fined for non-basketball maneuvers that ended up with elbows to the brain of Ginobili and Szerbiak (sp?). The elbow Ronny caught to the temple and the hand to the throat Sasha enountered were both unnatural basketball moves and no one was fined or suspended.
With the ongoing discussion TrueHoop about whether it’s wise to call a timeout at the end of quarters/games to set up a play, I have come to wonder why teams don’t just run their regular offense on the last play. The other side of that same coin is, if these end-of-quarter plays are so effective, why aren’t THEY the regular offense?
skigi says
Joel mentioned the other night during the Orlando game that Denver got mad at the Lakers because of the “We want tacos” chants at the end of the blowout last week. Denver thought that it was motivating the Lakers to keep going at them and not take it easy. I think Denver needs to stop getting mad at people when they are getting blown out (see, the Melo brawl in NYC last season). Denver will be looking for revenge tonight.
-kwame a.
a little off topic here, but what do you think about the Ronaldinho to Chelsea rumors? Spanish newspaper said it was a done deal but Ron’s agent said no. I wouldn’t mind seeing him in the PL going up against MAN U and Newcastle and Liverpool
exhelodrvr says
24) Rony is not a great player; IMO he really only has “backup” level talent. The problem is that the Lakers are very weak at that position, so who are you going to replace him with? If you move Lamar to that spot, you move the weakness to SF.
Samy says
No more soccer!
Luke says
I think with time Ariza can be starting at the 3 spot. Hes aggressive with the ball on offense and defensively he can gaurd just about any SF or SG in the league! This will free up Kobe on the offensive end and Lamar can go back to being PF. I think Lamar is a great talent at the SF but I think hes more suited for the PF.
Warren Wee Lim says
I have this sinister idea in terms of the Kwame vs. Drew arguments…
Since purchasing NBA08 on PSP I tried several combinations on the court that put Odom at SF, Ronnie at PF and Drew at C. I started to realize that Odom still uses the PF as his most comfortable position to play.
I also tried to use 2 PG combos like Farmar and Fish (Kobe fouls out due to over-aggressive defense I employ in harrassing and going for steals) and I also tried to see how the game “envisioned” Javaris Crittenton as a player and how he moves.
Then it hit me. Basketball is not a science, it is at the same time a work of art and a game about adjustments and innovations as well. Positions stated on the roster suggest only the player’s role on that team not that he is strictly and limited to playing that.
When Kwame comes back, what if we sported Kwame and Drew together? It makes perfect sense – offensive center, defensive PF. Or it could be the other way around. Offensive PF, defensive C. Either way, San Antonio is doing it? Duncan is by all means a center, but the luxury of more big men suggest he is a PF.
Of course the idea is contingent on Kwame coming back…
If we play a team like the Suns and Warriors, naturally one of Kwame or Drew can slide to the bench as Lamar can revert to playing PF full time.
Warren Wee Lim says
Trevor Ariza showed us what he can do when given time to adjust and some burn…
Seriously, the Lakers need to utilize him more in terms of seeing action so that he gets the reputation of the defensive stopper. At age 22, he can seriously make a run at becoming Shane Battier or Bruce Bowen (that’s a stretch). At 6’8 and 210, I think gaining a little weight allows him to guard the quick SFs of the league, at the same time guard the taller but leaner PFs like Dirk or Bargnani.
RG73 says
Exhelodrvr–I’d rather have Ronny available, especially given the injury status of Kwame, Bynum’s iffy availability, Mihm’s ever questionable ankles. That said, LO is a better PF than Ronny. He’s had a 17-18 PER at the 4 the last few seasons. He gets more rebounds, scores more points, actually has a lower opponent FG% against than Ronny at the 4. Luke, Odom and Vlad all get killed at the 3 defensively, but Luke is better there on offense (and Vlad is better off the bench). Hopefully Ariza can get some more minutes at the 3 for defensive purposes. Assuming no trades, I’m guessing we’re going to see the Lakers go back to the ‘default’ line up of Kwame/Odom/Luke/Kobe/Fisher with Bynum/Ronny/Vlad/Sasha/Farmar off the bench (with Mihm, Ariza, Critt getting minutes as injuries dictate). For floor units that have gotten 15+ minutes this season, I think all but one are negative with Ronny at the 4, but none with Odom at the 4 are negative. Odom at the 3, ESPECIALLY with Ronny on the floor with him, is a disaster (as in -20s for off rtg-df rtg).
Rob L. says
This “analysis” from NBA.com made me laugh out loud. Guess Butch Beard, if that is your real name sir, hasn’t watched the Lakers at all this season. Maybe never.
For the Lakers, their bench has been very solid this year, but again, we’re talking about the same situation as Denver. Kobe and Odom have to score 42 or more points a game in order for them to be competitive every night. Now where do they get their third scorer?
RG73 says
Kwame cannot play the 4 with Bynum at the 5 because Kwame has lost every part of his game that he had in Washington (e.g. face up game). Sure, Rodman played the 4 in the tri without a lick of offensive game. The difference is that he made good passes and kept the ball moving and the offensive spacing wasn’t compromised. Kwame is not a good passer, so he can’t just sit outside and move the ball around and facilitate the offense. He’s not even useful as an occasional cutter off the ball like Rodman used to do (or that both Bynum and Ronny can do because they can catch and dunk). Because of the state of his offensive game (non-existent), Kwame has to camp out in the paint. I suppose you could try some dual post offense, having Bynum and Kwame on opposite blocks at the same time, but I think that will end up in disaster. Mihm can work at times the 4 specifically because he has some face up game and you can put him in the high post. He’s gotten a few spot minutes at the 4 alongside Kwame and Bynum–the numbers are awful, but we’re talking 1-2 minutes of those units, so small sample size. But Kwame at the 4 is a disaster waiting to happen. If it was going to work, Phil would have implemented it already.
Rob L. says
Speaking of laughs, the Nuggs actually took offense to the “We Want Tacos” chant? This is even more hilarious than someone on NBA.com talking about Lamar like he’s a scoring machine because we actually want the freakin’ tacos!
Seriously, anyone who’s been to Staples for one of those games knows how electric those nights are. It’s usually mid-third quarter when someone in the section will casually mention, “Hey. Could be tacos tonight.” This will spark at least two other guys to talk to their friends about the chances of said overheard tacos. From then on the crowd starts zeroing in on the tasty goal all the way to the finish. It’s dumb, group fun at its finest.
Of course, if I’m with my buddy John he’s usually drunk and screaming for tacos by halftime if there’s any kind of lead.
I like those nights too.
Misareaux says
@Warren The Lakers have only had Ariza for a couple games. Definitely not enough time for the coaching staff to see the full range of his abilities, nor enough time to get a basic grounding in the triangle. He needs to not be an offensive liability since we pretty much know he is able to defend well.
TC says
12-I wasn’t saying that Carmelo didn’t choke him…perhaps I didn’t express it clearly enough; I just meant that Sasha has a tendency to whine and overact some. I agree though-I certainly think Melo did it.
26-I just picked European soccer because the non-American dudes probably watch it. Regardless of whether Sasha has expressed affection for it, speaking as a Brit living in the States, and having lived in Slovenia also, soccer is practically a religion; it’s almost beyond the question of having the choice of being a fan. No, I don’t know that he’s a fan, but I know that Vlade Divac, Ginobili, Varejao are. Yeah, Nash may not be a flopper, but he also didn’t grow up in Europe; anyway…..my point was just to suggest that soccer has an influence on how those guys play basketball; perhaps I didn’t make it as clearly as I’d intended.
harold says
Warren, i think the roles are there because it uses the floor most efficiently. You generally don’t want players with overlapping skillsets as there is only one ball.
I mean, how many slashers can you use anyway? If you have a slasher, you’re better off having a spot up shooter than having yet another slasher (although a player having different skill sets will make them more valuable in offenses like the triangle where ‘effective positions’ shift more often).
Still, i’m always fond of those gimmicky moves that dares the other team to play along or ignore at their own peril. Problem is, such gimmicks usually force mismatches for you as well – mismatches that worked for you on offense will likely work against you on defense unless you can be really creative defensively OR have really versatile players.
Warren Wee Lim says
I actually agree with the positions and all but the one I am trying to force is for Drew to develop into a player that can be relied upon both offensively and defensively. I say this because if Kwame is in the game with him, he can guard the lesser big man and preserve his fouls. Kwame is good on on-ball defense while Drew is better in the off-ball such as blocks and swipes. If this happened, esp against bigger and slower teams, I can see Drew averaging 12 boards and 2-3 blocks.
Warren Wee Lim says
On the Denver game, its important that the Lakers keep up the scoring efficiency. Since it is a road-road back-to-back in the Rockies, air is humid and breathing is difficult. They need to put away the Nuggs in the 3rd with the Flu and all…
Warren Wee Lim says
Vlade Radman makes you think he’s the biggest albatross on the payroll one day, and makes you think we got him very cheap on other days…
He’s 3-3 from the arc and 4-4 field, 11pts total in 6 mins of action.
harold says
Never thought that I’d miss Kwame this much. Really.
As for tonight’s game… What’s Vlad on? That’s not the Vlad ‘Vanilla Ice’ Rad I know.
A-Hole Carolla says
For the love of Christ, get Farmer off Iverson.
kwame a. says
takeaway Vlad’s shots and we are 2-12 from 3 and 14-27 from inside the arc. We should keep attacking and not settle for 3’s.
KikosDad says
We’re playing good this 1st half…One thing that I do notice about dumb Odumb. Why on earth doesn’t he pass to Bynum??? I have a hunch before that he has some inferiority complex about Bynum’s growth. It’s getting obvious now…
Still passive and indecisive of what to do inside the paint unless it was spoon feed by Kobe. LO…stop being a moron and get over it. Pass the ball to Bynum when he’s free.
Kurt says
AVAN, you are new here, so you are finding this out the hard way, but we don’t have speculative trade suggestions on this blog. There are other Lakers sites where there are great discussions along those lines.
KikosDad says
I know it’s for match up purposes that they let Luke play SF vs Melo. but damn, it won’t hurt if they play Ariza now.
He’s wise enough to not do bonehead decisions with the ball unlike Odumb. Please let him play and show him what he got.
Kurt says
44. Yes, but I think there are some good signs. Denver is not playing as a team, very individual ball, and no defense. Those things bode well for us in the second half, if we don’t fade because of the altitude/back-to-back.
Warren Wee Lim says
Is there any way we can stop Iverson’s 33 pts – 13-15fg and 9-10fts? If not, were toast.
The only bright spot for us is, Denver’s other players are relying on him too much. If we could lock him down in the second half, the other might be too cold to take over.
KikosDad says
Why can’t we try JCritt this 3rd on Iverson. Take out Odum and move Radman on PF and bring in Ariza at SF???
We need some sort of penetration now as we’re in the penalty. I’m just afraid LO will jack up shots from the three when he shouldn’t have to.
Kurt says
For all the pumped crowd and Iverson show, the game tied at the end of three with the Lakers having their best player on the bench. I just have a good feeling here.
KikosDad says
C’mon PJ!!!
Play JCritt against Iverson.
I’m sure we’re going to see a lot of Bynum action now this last quarter.
Go Lakers!!! 🙂
kwame a. says
damn, kobe sucked the life out of the o. we were moving the ball in the third, it was a great quarter of TEAM ball.
Kurt says
kwame a. I was thinking the same thing, the Lakers have started to stand around, watch Kobe and shoot jumpers, one-on-one basketball. And Denver is the team moving the ball around now.
Kurt says
RG73, I was looking at the stats and while the sample size is a little small, you are right that Turiaf’s defensive stats have not been good this year. I think, honestly, part of why we as fans think all things are better with him at the four is he was starting we were winning.
But, I don’t think you can discount the energy factor. Yes, in an ideal world, Turiaf is your energy guy off the bench. But so many times last year the Lakers played so flat to start games, and it colored the whole game. He did not allow that to happen this year, and I think that accounts for something.
Goo says
There is this thing called the triangle offense..maybe the lakers would be interested in running it?
kwame a. says
can anyone, anyone still defend Odom.
kwame a. says
56-I’m not a huge “intangibles” guy, but what ever the hell an intangible is, turiaf brings them.
harold says
I’ll be happy with a W at this point, and let everything slide. Really. If we can weather a 66% FG from Iverson when he takes 27 shots, and gets to the line 18 times, I can forgive the Lakers for squeaking out a W.
Speaking of crunch time, Kobe blocks, clanks an and-one, and bynum blocks… wow.
Lamar Odom says
CLUTCH!!!! Now THAT’S CLUTCH!!!!!
kwame a. says
Yo, Drew Bynum is changing/blocking every shot, his D is impacting this game
Kurt says
It amazes me that the Nuggets didn’t do what th Magic did — trap Kobe hard off the pick and roll late. It worked fairly well, I’d do that until he beats it. The nuggets just went soft on D.
harold says
Wow, looking at the box, I might have thought Denver won the game.
AI has 51 points and 8 assists
Melo has 24 points and 4 steals
Camby has 20 boards
Martin has 3 blocks
great sum of its individual parts, but thankfully no more.
Rob L. says
The rumors of Andrew Bynum’s sub-par defense have been greatly exaggerated.
kwame a. says
64-word. 7 blocks against Howard, key stops against Denver with the stomach flu. Oh yea, guess I gotta add in the obligatory, he’s only 20 comment.
The Dude Abides says
Drew’s D is really improving, and it’s happening in-season. His D is clearly better now than it was in the first five games. Kiko’s Dad, after you harped on LO not passing to Drew earlier in the game, I specifically watched for that in the 4th quarter, and sure enough, LO had the ball a few times with Drew open on the block, and didn’t pass it to him. I’m wondering now if it’s something LO has against Drew’s ability in the post, or if LO is just not confident at feeding the post in general.
KiKosDad says
No need to say anything except thanks for the win Denver.
Love our Defense and glad Drew and Mamba came through for us in the final mins.
lets savor this Laker nation…looking forward to sundays game. It will be fast and furious.
Go Lakers!!!
jellosjigglin' says
BIG win for the Lakers. Still missing kwame, turiaf; kobe and bynum battling the flu and a 50+ point effort from AI.. sounds like a recipe for disaster, but they pulled it out. Although they lost the 3rd, I was glad to see the bench keep them within reach with kobe, lo and luke on the bench.
huge offense and defense by kb24 and bynum, respectively, in the end.
my biggest problem with this game tonight is vlad rad’s early departure in the first half – when he was red hot. whats up with that? anyone see a reason??
Warren Wee Lim says
This is one game we should have lost yet won. I guess it atones somewhat for one of the Orlando, NJ and Milwaukee losses. 1 down, 2 to go!
Lakers seem to play a little better with the uptempo West don’t they?
jellosjigglin says
BIG win for the Lakers! Still missing kwame, turiaf; kobe and bynum battling the flu and a 50+ point effort from AI.. sounds like a recipe for disaster, but they pulled it out. Although they lost the 3rd, I was glad to see the bench keep them within reach with kobe, lo and luke on the bench.
huge offense and defense by kb24 and bynum, respectively, in the end.
my biggest problem with this game tonight is vlad rad’s early departure in the first half – when he was red hot. whats up with that? anyone see a reason??
chris says
how about a little love for trevor???
wasn’t it when we put him on AI that we started to shut him down and turn the game around???
I’m liking what I’m seeing from ariza, I like the way he goes to the boards, we have been missing that rodman rebounding mentality on our team.
I think he’s working his way to more minutes and could be a key part of the future!
fanerman says
I didn’t see the end of the game. Did the offense ever get back in sync once Kobe went back in?
Kas says
most fun game of the season so far.
AI puts on a show
the Lakers put on a better one and come away with the win.
jeremy says
Great Game. Great Win. The Last 2 Laker games have been FILLED with highlights and this was no exception. Things are seeming to work better with L.O. @ the 4… hmmmm…
Arzia was Lockdown…again. Looking like the stopper off the bench we have craved for so long. Bynum was unreal. It looked as if he grew a bunch tonight and he’s proving himself against one of the most defensive mineded backcourts in the league…not to mention the number he did on Dwight… (shoulda won that game…)
Mamba’s got that venom back and people are coming together… Me Likey!!
The golden armor shines brightly once again… ahhhhhh…..
carter blanchard says
Were people really expecting Phil to give Trevor instant burn? I feel like after 2 games people were grumbling, “why’d we make the trade if we’re not going to play him.” Dude can and will play. Give him some time to get the flow. The finances may have played a big role in that trade, but I definitely don’t think we got shafted on the talent by any stretch.
The Kobe-to-Bynum oop was sick all around. Great win.
Goo says
69, if i remember correctly Kobe was pretty much running the You-guys-watch-as-I-shoot-offense until a botched play resulted in a ridiculous dunk by Bynum over Carmelo and Camby off a Kobe lob 20 feet out with the shot clock winding down…after that a sick block by Bynum on Carmelo and 2 steals by Fisher and Radman plus some easy finger rolls in transition for Kobe sealed the game
I’d think Kurt will break this section down of the game tomorrow if he does one of his possession by possession analysis posts
81 Witness says
Ariza the AI stopper.
Bynum, what a 4th quarter he put up. Even Kwame cannot contribute with this type of defense. Kwame takes away the opposing post-ups, but Bynum had some great help D. And Kobe’s 4th quarter, well, kind of reminded you of another player who wore a red #23 uniform.
pgblooded says
For all that’s been said against him (ruining the offense…etc.), I’m glad Kobe took over the ballgame when he needed to. Heck, he should have done the same thing against the Magic.
I’m loving the way Kobe is playing within the offense but sometimes I do miss the “Black Mamba” killing the opponents with his poisonous venom. Glad he did it tonight.
I guess there are games that he really needs to take over.
fanerman says
I’m just happy we got a win against a pretty good team, with a superstar being unbelievably on fire, on the second night of a back-to-back, without Ronny, without Kwame, and with Kobe in foul trouble.
Adam Kiley says
something that i’ve observed is the fact that with Smush parker now gone the lakers have a better chance to win tight games. My evidence is this; often times at the climax of a close game it would be smush and his dreadful 61% free throw shooting on the line. Teams knowing that he is a terrible free throw shooter, and he’ll more likely than not have the ball in his possession being a guard, would foul him intentionally. That has all changed now with Fisher being the pg and closing games out for the team, and we saw that tonight. Fisher like he usually does hit his free throw s in the waining moments of the game. Presto! the lakers win. (not to say this is the sole reason, but it did heavily contribute to the victory) This is something I like seeing and hope it continues. After all they can’t all be blowouts, can they!
Warren Wee Lim says
[Edited]
On Smush… he’s Miami’s headache now. Don’t they wish they paid Kapono or Posey instead?
harold says
Smush is soon to be his own headache, i think. I actually liked him for a bit, it disheartens me whenever somebody just falls out like that.
As for the game, we really needed the last two wins. Young guns need confidence more than anything, which will give them poise that will lead to good decision making.
Did you guys notice that just about every player we put on the floor had an assist? 28 assists in 40 buckets, and we were only down 4 rebounds despite not having a single player pull down double digit rebounds.
This ‘team’ is really shaping up to become a ‘team,’ from the starting five all the way down to #12 or so.
Adam Kiley says
the point I was making was not really about Smush Parker, but rather the fact that the Lakers now have a pg they can rely on when it comes to free throw shooting. That’s it, not on how smush was a “headache” for our team; I’d rather not rip a man while he’s down.
drrayeye says
I didn’t see the game, but the descriptions of the drama sure don’t fit with the box score very well.
Camby got 20 rebounds–Mihm/Bynum combined got 8 (2 for Bynum). Bynum got 2 points (apparently that alley oop someone described). Bynum and Mihm had about the same statistics.
The great defense some of you described gave up 107 points. That’s a number where we should lose. They shot 43 free throws!
According to the box score the difference in scoring points and percentages was three point scoring: they were 3/14; we were 10/26.
I know that Kobe scored the winning basket, but it looks like VladRad was really the hero of the game.
Nagaz says
70, let’s not forget the first game of the season we should’ve/could’ve won.
81, I apologize if this was addressed when Smush was with the team, but why wasn’t Farmar getting as much burn last season? Did he really improve that much?
And to reiterate the question of the night, is there any good reason for not milking Vlad’s hot hand?
Warren Wee Lim says
Dr Ray, lets not forget that Kobe and Drew were basically playing sick. Mihm got his burn playing the whole 1st Q (I think unless Radman played some C).
The good thing I saw in the game was that we prevailed on a game that a future HOF stud barraged 33 pts in the half and 51 for the game. We were so used to Kobe doing it for us and it seems so long ago that he scored more than 40. Wait, he did it on the Houston game…
Playing hurt, playing sick, second night on a road-road back-to-back, any win you pull out of thin-aired Colorado is always welcome. I guess the cruise win vs, Minny helped a bit on that. As I said, this game was not supposed to be won but we did.
kwame a. says
84- uh, box scores never tell the story. Drew came up huge, there is only so long you can continue to disparge his remarkable ascent to legitimate impact Center. If you watched the game, you’d know Camby was a huge no-factor in the game, even the ESPN clueless announcers remarked that. Guess you had to see it.
the other Stephen says
instead of writing my econ paper, i started watching the game at around the end of the second quarter. i noticed odom’s hesitance to take shots, especially beyond the three-point line. that said, he still took five and made only one. he played a team-high 34 minutes, and i was kind of looking for him to provide some leadership while kobe was icing his arm. didn’t really happen.
all i have to say about the rest of the game is that we escaped in the fourth quarter. allen iverson was wreaking havoc all game, and we were just lucky that no one else could really score. the lakers once again played some inconsistent defense, but came together for a bit in the fourth quarter. iverson is just too damn fast. anyone have any thoughts on who matched up best on iverson?
i’m not dissing on farmar, but think he needs to work out more. he’s too scrappy. my friend ran into him at pauley last week, and was surprised at his lack of athleticism.
kwame a. says
For what its worth, Bynum had a team-leading +13 last night.
the other Stephen says
we were also lucky that denver was so shorthanded. but iverson almost came through.
Jeremy says
Kobe is a lot of fun to watch and is one of the top 5 players all time. As much as the Lakers are in transtion while Kobe gets older, it would be hard to trade him, even for a decent trio of young players. Im just glad Kobe ended up playing for the Lakers for as long as he has, but it would be great to get him to sign an extension.
Bobby Smith says
Kwame a., not to mention that Bynum still has the flu. Just that he was out there trying to contribute says a lot. he may not have put up big numbers but his 3 blocks and 3 assists were timely. Drrayeye clealry has an agenda against Bynum. But that doesn’t matter because Bynum is clearly shaping up to be the center of the future for the Lakers, whether some fans like it or not. I’m still confused why people don’t wholeheartedly embrace a 7 footer that is working hard and producing.
Depsite his shortcomings, Mihm always plays hard and I respect that.
ryan says
Phil made a good move putting Ariza on AI half way through the 3rd and in the beginning of the 4th. Shorter players (not shorter than AI just under 6’5”) really have no hope against Iverson. He is so quick that you have to play off of him then, he can just rise up and knockdown the mid range shot on the step back and if you are not a good 5-6″ taller than him you have no shot at stopping it. There were a few times where Farmar or Fisher did a good job guarding AI, but he would just sink a little 12-15 ft fade away. Sometimes I forget just how good he is. And durable, a guy that small, that gets knocked around that much, plays the minutes that he has, and doesn’t get injured and still has it at 32. Absolutely amazing.
Great D in the 4th quarter. Bynum did a great job protecting the paint, a great block on Mello and he changed a number of shots.
Why did Karl keep Iverson playing the PG in the 4th quarter? He was so effective playing SG running off of screens, getting the ball outside then blowing by his defenders before they got a chance to recover. I think Phil out coached Karl in this game. Trying to earn his 24M extension.
Paul says
Kidd is trying to be traded. I hope he doesn’t play with Lebron. If I were NJ, I would rather take Kwame’s expiring than Drew Gooden and a bunch of chumps. But this league is strange.
CTDeLude says
It’s so fun coming in here reading the comments AFTER the fact.
Like when everyone was worried about the beginning of the 4th quarter and we were going “away” from the triangle.
This is why running commentary during the game means jack squat. And I’m TERRIBLE at it just the same.
But it’s good for a laugh afterwards.
Besides to those saying this is a game we should have lost, no it wasn’t. Iverson was going off yet they never pulled ahead by any great margin the whole game. Seems we had this basically where we wanted it. And THAT shows this team can go somewhere.
Bobby Smith says
OK Kurt, we’ve got some days off…..now how about that trade thread? We’ve got Lamar and Luke playing below potential, we’ve got excess talent at point guard, we’ve got Kwame expiring contract but he is also a good post defender, and we’ve got Kidd trying to get traded…..I say open the flood gates for one thread and one thread only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
drrayeye says
(93) Bobby, you can be an ostrich if you want, but sooner or later we will have to face the consequences of bad defense. 107 points given up is unacceptable–even if we did manage to get lucky and pull out a victory. Phil obviously did a great job in substituting with what he had, Trevor came through, and Bynum managed to make a heroic contribution at the end. Duly noted.
Bynum has made great progress, but keep things in perspective. Let’s not have a repeat of last year. Don’t hype him into hyperspace and destroy his career. before it even starts.
Adam Kiley says
Don’t know if anyone saw this yet, but under john hollinger’s playoff probablility the lakers are a shoe-in at a 98.9% clip. I know what your going to say, “what, for real”. Yeah that’s what I said too.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds
Take a look for yourself!
fanerman says
CTDeLude,
but it’s fun to talk to other people during the game.
fanerman says
11% chance of making the finals!
Travis Y. says
i know u are to expect a lack of calls on the road but last night was atrocious. every time we breathed on iverson it was a foul. camby took some of the weakest charges that would make nash cringe. did you see how many free throws the nuggets had?
even still the lakers were still able to get a TEAM victory. everyone contributed, and no one has even applauded Fish! He had a very quiet game but had lots of tough shots. Hope Kobe’s shoulder doesn’t become a problem.
Bobby Smith says
98. I agree, we should improve our defense. What makes your point just ignorant is that Bynum hardly played last night because of the flu and when he was in the game his defense was strong. So for you to suggest that last night’s sub par defensive effort has anything to do with Bynum destroys your credibility.
EVERY KNOWS THAT BYNUM NEEDS TO KEEP IMPROVING, PARTICULARLY ON DEFENSE. THAT DOESN’T CHANGE THE FACT THAT HE IS ALREADY, AT 20 YEARS OLD, ONE OF THE MOST PRODUCTIVE BIG MEN IN TH NBA. BUT GO AHEAD, KEEP CALLING ME AS OSTRICH OR WHATEVER.
81 Witness says
93 – Doc Ray, the Lakers were not giving up easy paint points until the 4th quarter. PJ called a timeout and it stopped. Remember, Denver is one of the most efficient offenses in the NBA, so we all know that teams need to D-up and try and run.
Anybody else notice how Iverson’s opportunistic D rubbed off on Denver yesterday? Fouling from 25+ feet away going for that steal. Running full-speed at the 3 point shooter? AI is a great offensive player, but his contagious D just hurts teams.
To others: The Refereeing favored the Nuggets slightly at best, but if you need the ref’s help to win a game, do you really deserve to win?
ryan says
The Lakers D wasn’t as bad as the 107 pts suggest. It wasn’t good though until the 4th qtr. They played pretty well in the 4th on the defensive end, particularly in the final 6 minutes. Bynum played solid defense in the 4th quarter last night. He had that big block on Mello, after which Kobe scored and the Lakers went up by 5 (I think, it may have been 4). He also changed a number of shots in the paint. Bynum has been improved on his help defense as they year has progressed. He still makes mistakes, and needs improvement (particular defending the pick and roll in getting back to his man after showing hard on the ball) but he has steadily improved this year. If he continues to work hard I don’t see any reason why he cant continue this trend and be a solid 20 and 10 player in the league.
fanerman says
Adding Kidd would be nice, but, we seem to have a logjam at PG as it is. If we want to add another all-star type player (and we’re getting rid of Odom), ideally the player would be an SF or PF.
Bobby Smith says
Where are all the recent Jason Kidd rumors coming from? Can someone link an article or something that suggests the Nets are trying to trade him.
If it is true, i would entertain trading Odom/Farmar or Kwame/Farmar for Kidd, and I would prefer the former trade because without Kwame our front line is thin. I wouldn’t ship Odom and Walton unless we get a SF in return. Farmar is going to be a good player in this league but I’d rather have Kidd now and I’m fine having Critt later.
Jason Kidd would instantly increase the productivity of Bryant and Bynum and others I am sure.
fanerman says
Bobby Smith,
Jason Kidd yesterday didn’t play because he called his coach and complained that he had a migraine. People have speculated that that’s his way of saying he wants out.
Rob L. says
Could the defense have been better this game? Sure. But it’s the wrong area to focus on. The Lakers DRtg for the game was 108.21. This is worse than their season avg of 105.8 (12th in the Association). That also means that Denver scored slightly better than their ORtg avg of 107.2 (15th).
Also, defensive numbers from fast-paced games like this one get skewed a bit. In other words, a DRtg of 108.21 in a game whose pace is 98.88 is not the same as doing it with a pace of 88.
But what we should focus on is the Lakers ORtg of 112.26. This is well above the 101.6 avg that Denver (3rd best defense) gives up. It’s also above the Lakers ORtg avg of 110.8.
This is great news as the offense had been sputtering lately.
drrayeye says
(110) Rob,
I wouldn’t focus too much on that offense rating last night, since it depended almost entirely on VladRad being hot at three point shots. We know all too well that it doesn’t happen every night and has little to do with the offensive “flow.”
It could be more helpful to point out that we rarely win games when the opponents score 107, but almost always win when the opponents score 90,
Kurt says
97. Bobby, a post is going up later today that will open that door, but also discuss and open up some larger issues with it. However, the actual paying gig means it will be this afternoon before I can get it finished and in place. Blame “the man” for holding me down!
Kurt says
Stop the Jason Kidd talk. (Actually, I am going to stop it.)
This is why I hate, hate this trade talk shit, it gets out of control. Kidd sits out last night with a headache, and the NY Post reports he’s going on strike. People, KNOW YOUR SOURCES! The Post is a tabloid, it makes crap up all the time and throws everything it can against the wall hoping something will stick. It agitates, that’s it’s role.
Don’t believe me, Kidd himself called it BS today:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3144197
Honestly, you are the best group of readers and commenters I could hope for, this has become such a fun forum. But there is this crazy pack mentality thing that takes over some Lakers fans with the slightest hint of a trade rumor, even if it is the BS NY Post making it up, and people go nuts with ideas. This is why I end up taking such a hard line, because it’s pandora’s box once it’s open.
Bottom line, no more Kidd talk. That issue is dead.
Jed says
Yay, I know you are given a hard time about it occaionally, but I love the fact that I don’t have to sift thru trade machine proposals at this blog. You do a great job (weren’t you named the number 2 basketball blog after TrueHoop recently?). Thanks for the awesome site.
exhelodrvr says
dr ray,
“We know all too well that it doesn’t happen every night and has little to do with the offensive “flow.â€
Vlad’s shots were well within the flow of the offense; that is what he was brought here to do, that is what ball movement and Kobe’s penetrating make available. THe offense is designed to create opportunities like those.
It is his generally cold shooting for the past year that has been outside the offensive flow, not the shots that he was making last night.
drrayeye says
(114) I agree with you about VladRad. My point was that our team focus must be defense rather than offensiv flow.
We can play strong defense every night, but we don’t hit our threes every night.
Mike in the Mountain West says
Does anyone know how to calculate the pace of a single game or where I can find that information for specific games? Although the Nuggs scored 107 last night they usually play at a very fast pace as do we, so that number could seem larger than it actually is.
I haven’t heard a lot of people talking about Fisher in that game but he was an all around contributor with 20 pts 5 reb 5 ast, but it was a quiet contribution. Fisher has been playing really well this season and is no small part of our success so far.
Kurt says
116. Because the NBA does not track possessions officially, there are a number of systems out there. I (and Rob L. and Knickerblogger) tend to use the Hollinger system:
(FGA+(FTA*.44)+TO-OR)*.96= Pos.
The reason for the free throw attempts times .44 is that you can’t just divide by two because not all fouls result in two free throws (the and-one issue). Hollinger and others looked into it and there was actually some debate about .44 or .45, but the issue was studied.
Here’s the thing, that formula actually overestimates possessions by about three or so a game. Dean Oliver has another system that actually underestimates them by a few. Basketballvalues.com has another method all together.
The thing is, as long as all your calculations for all the teams use the same formula, the ratios will be the same.
As for last night’s game, I think Rob L. had it worked out to 98.88 possessions, or 99 since we like to round that number off.
Exick says
So, that’s interesting. The Defensive Rating numbers that some stats sites publish are not pace-adjusted? I just assumed they were.
Mike in the Mountain West says
Great, thanks for the explanation.
So using that method we actually weren’t that great defensively since we allowed 108 points per 100 possessions last night and Denver’s average this year is 102.
The real suprise is that we were able to score as many points as we did, since Denver is the third best defensive team in the league only allowing 97.5 points per 100 possesions.
ryan says
119. I think Devers defensive numbers are a bit skewed. From watching them in games their defense is not that good. Some nights it is, others it is just horrible (last night for example). Also they have not that tough of a schedule yet.
Rob L. says
119. Denver’s average ORtg isn’t 102. Before this game it was 107 on the nose. So the Nuggs were essentially at their average for the game.
110. Rayeye, there is no doubt Vlad had an effect on the Lakers ORtg. But check out the team. It was more than RadMan. Vlad, Kobe and Fish were the three pronged attack and the rest of the team filled in the cracks ok. While the names of the players may be different than you’d think, that is exactly what the Lakers are trying to do every night offensively. It’s just that Kobe, Odom, special guest star is what that line should read in most people’s minds. (Not the folks here, necessarily. But everyone else.)
19Lakers *Sheet 1=box score, Sheet 2 = Traditional avgs, Sheet 3 = “New” stats. Ignore most of the columns on the right of Sheet 3. They are all part of the crazy calculations necessary to get individual ORtg and Poss% for a single game.
If anything, it was Fish’s production that was unusually high compared to his season average. And he used a higher percentage of the team possessions too.
harold says
too bad, i was fantasizing about who we have to give up for Kidd and how angry Kobe would be had Kidd been traded to the Cavs 😉
It seems that outside of Bryant and Bynum, everyone on the roster is pretty tradable. How much are we paying Bynum? No matter how young, inexperienced, and raw he is, having him at that price probably can’t be beat.