Tuesday night’s loss the Heat was pretty much expected. On the road + playing a good team + the Lakers being not a good team right now = a loss. I think we can all live with that result. Frustratingly, what has also become somewhat expected but is harder to live with is that D’Angelo Russell couldn’t find his way into the game even though the team trailed by as many as 18 points in the period and ended up losing by 13. As a key young player who, as stated by the head coach needs minutes on the floor to develop, not playing in this particular game seems like a wasted opportunity.
Forget, though, all of that for a moment. Yes, Russell needs to play for development reasons but there are some numbers which say he probably should be playing in the 4th quarter based on merit. Namely, that Russell does his best work in the 2nd half of games, showing especially strong play in the 3rd quarter. The numbers are below:
- In the 2nd half of games, Russell has made 15 of his 29 field goals (51.7%)
- In the 2nd half of games, Russell has made 4 of his 12 three-point field goals (33.3% — league average is 33.7%)
- In the 2nd half of games, Russell has 9 assists to 5 turnovers, nearly a 2-1 ratio
- In the 2nd half of games, the Lakers’ offensive efficiency is 5.4 points better when Russell is in the game (100.3) than when he is on the bench (94.9).
- In the 3rd quarter, Russell’s shooting numbers are even better — 57.1% shooting from the field, 40% shooting from behind the arc.
Okay, that’s nice, but the argument is easily made that Russell’s 3rd period numbers are artificially bumping up his 2nd half numbers and, thus, maybe he shouldn’t play in the 4th quarter as much. I mean, if he’s not playing as well in the 4th maybe sitting on the sideline is warranted.
However, the opposite should also carry some weight, right? I mean, if Russell is doing his best work in the 3rd period wouldn’t it make sense to bring him back into games to let him build on strong play? Instead, Russell has sat out the entire 4th quarter in three of the team’s seven games and only played more than 5 minutes in a 4th quarter twice this year.
It is always important to note that the season is young and that there is more than one way to develop a player. Bringing a player along slowly isn’t necessarily a bad thing, just as force-feeding a guy minutes is not always a good thing. However, based on the number of games Russell has sat out entirely and his level of play in 2nd halves (and the 3rd quarter specifically), it would seem that there is a lack of balance between the pace in which he’s being brought along and what he might be ready for. This disconnect is frustrating to watch play out night after night.
rr says
From other thread:
Russell: I am not 100% convinced that Byron not playing Russell in the 4th quarter in the early games of his career is such a huge deal, but if the FO thinks it is then:
a) They should have not signed Lou Williams to a 3/21 deal.
b) Mitch should not have said the team could fight for the 8th seed.
c) They can order Byron to play Russell 30+ mpg and to play him in the 4th and fire Byron if he refuses.
I think Russell should be going 30-34 minutes every game too, but I think making that the focal point of every conversation about the team is just another way of repeating the tiresome Byron-is-an-idiot narrative. We get it. People think Byron is in over his head, out of date, pompous, they never wanted him hired, and they want him gone. Some people are tired of the FO-bashing, which I get. But the Byron-bashing is just as repetitive now.
Team: Like many of us said in preseason, there is not much talent here that is going to lead to short-term gains. And the young guys they do have are probably not Towns/Wiggins type-talents. Add that to the roster redundancies, the coach, and the fact that Kobe is pretty much Muhammad Ali in 1979, and this looked like a 25-28 win team, which is what pretty much everybody who is not a Lakers fan thought it would be.
What the FO should do: that depends on one thing—do Buss and Kupchak believe that Byron’s presence is hurting the development of the young players? If they do, they should get rid of him immediately, and turn the team over to Pressey or Madsen on an interim basis with orders to play the young guys more while the FO shops Williams, Young, BB and Hibbert. If they don’t, then they should announce that Byron is the coach for the rest of the season.
Basquiatball says
I also think it’s fair to ask why he’s not producing as well in first halves. Does who he’s on the floor with affect it? Who he’s playing against? I doubt we have enough information to parse that yet, but I’ve been looking at his 3Q play as being more indicative of what I hope from him in the future than the 1Qs
bluehill says
Well Byron doesn’t seem to be a big believer in analytics, so these stats probably won’t convince him. Any stats on DLo’s second half defense? That may be Byron’s bigger issue although if so there are a lot of other guys he could bench as well, so he might as well give Russell some more run.
rr says
Darius,
My comment is on the other thread as well, so take one of them down if you think that is better.
Macman says
Just maybe D”Angelo’s body is not ready for NBA level play for extended minutes and the training staff recommended low minutes looking at Lakers luck with injuries. As the season continues, he might be able to add more muscle to his frame and get more minutes.
Clay Bertrand says
For those who want people on this Forum to refrain from further “BYRON IS AN IDIOT” and “BYRON NEEDS TO GO” etc. comments, it is utterly impossible to sit by and ignore the obvious and just take it as a given and move on. Byron Scott says something or does something (or in the case of DAR DOESN’T do something) stupider and more moronic BY THE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!
You can’t just sit by and say, “THE COACH SUCKS AND HE WON’T PLAY THE ONLY YOUNG TALENT WE HAVE QUALITY MINUTES but we already know this so let’s focus on other topics.” Literally game by game by game Byron Scott does inexplicable things and never seems to make the right adjustments until 4 games too late.
If he didn’t KEEP illustrating his inept “coaching” REPEATEDLY, maybe some of us could focus on something else!!!
Tonight, he will RIDE KOBE for 30 minutes (unless Kobe’s BACK is still bad…) and will not play Russell against Elfrid Payton much and will not play him in the 4th quarter. We will lose the game.
Other than the very few good minutes Nance Jr. is now getting the ONLY Silver Lining is the potential Lottery Pick we may retain.
Byron either MUST GO or he MUST BE FORCED TO PLAY THE YOUNG GUYS. None of us is fooled into thinking this is a playoff team. We won’t be upset when we don’t make it this year.
LOSE WITH THE KIDS!!!!!!!!!!!
The Charade of playing the VETS is getting OLD. Byron just really wants that SECOND win. Someone needs to tell him 2 wins still SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jim C. says
rr:
A. Lou Williams on a 3/21 deal is a bargain under the new salary cap. Saying that D’Angelo Russel should be playing more, particularly in the 4th quarter, and thinking that is a good signing are not mutually exclusive.Lou Williams is the reigning SIXTH MAN of the year.
B. Why not? Should he have instead told the media that they’re going to be awful this year because the focus is going to be on developing the youngsters and the youngsters suck? Hardly the way to build confidence.
C. They should fire him either way…because he’s a bad coach and has a history of blaming his players for his failures, but I’d settle for the FO giving Byron the ultimatum that the youngsters all have to play 30 minutes per night minimum or he’s gone.
So what if the Byron bashing is repetitive? If he wouldn’t keep making the same mistakes – such as making stupid comments to the media, bizarre lineup decisions, archaic ideas about advanced metrics and the three point shot, and most importantly, not playing D’Angelo Russell he wouldn’t be giving his critics so much ammunition. Process matters. If the Lakers had the exact same record that they have now but all the youngsters were getting large amounts of consistent playing time – including in lineups with each other – there would be considerably less angst.
But the focus of this season has been obvious to anybody with two brain cells to rub together to create a spark: develop. the. youngsters.Part of that development was to create the best possible environment for them to succeed. It’s why a guy like MWP made the roster. He was, hopefully, going to help teach somebody like Randle to play defense. A guy like Hibbert was, hopefully, going to cover up perimeter mistakes to keep Clarkson and D’Angelo confident.
I also don’t think we know enough to say that the talent we have here isn’t Towns/Wiggins level. Clarkson certainly looked just as good as Wiggins during last season after the all-star break for example.
I think certain individuals need to go, but I don’t think Hibbert is among them. He’s a defensive minded center who fits well next to what you want Randle to provide. If I was to be shopping anybody right now it would be Nick Young.
Yes, he’s been a productive, solid bench player. He’s entertaining to watch. His contract going forward under the new cap is quite reasonable. He also plays the game in a way we absolutely don’t want Clarkson or D’Angelo emulating.
Robert Fisher says
Clay – I think you meant loose the kids, meaning remove the restraints.
Clay Bertrand says
Robert Fisher, NO, I meant LOSE WITH THE KIDS!!!! We are going to LOSE anyway. Might as well LOSE WITH the kids playing. What’s the point in losing by 13 with Lou Williams out there!?!?!?!?!
But I’m right with ya man…..Let the Kids LOOSE!!! LOSE WITH THEM PLAYING!!!!!!!!!! ; ) I LIKE watching DAR make mistakes. He has to make mistakes to get better. It’s the NOT BEING ALLOWED TO MAKE MISTAKES that’s hindering him. The BENCH isn’t teaching the lessons with the splinters Byron!!!!! SMH…..
****Embrace the losses as the journey to the future and HOPEFULLY, another top 3 Lottery Pick this year
JeffT says
Bring back D’Antoni and unleash the kids!
rr says
Jim C,
A- No, they are not mutually exclusive, but taken together, along with Young and Kobe being on the team, they don’t make much sense. Good analysts, including Kevin Pelton and Ben Golliver, have pointed out that Denver’s roster is very well-structured to develop Mudiay, whereas the Lakers’ is not very well-structured to develop Russell. This is not just some point that random internet malcontents are making. Williams is a good signing if they can flip him for a pick.
B- False dichotomy. Mitch could have easily given a vanilla non-answer answer, and as noted by many around the net, is Scott being evaluated more on wins or more on development? If the former, I can see, as I said last week, why he wants to play the 6MoY in crunch time rather than a talented but raw 19-year-old who is not an overpowering athlete.
C- Like I said, they should fire him right now if they think he is hurting the young guys. End of story.
As to the meta-issue of repetitiveness:
1. Repetitiveness is inherent to this medium, in part because we are responding to different people who make similar or overlapping points. So Posters A, B and C may have heard it before, but Poster D may be new to that part of the conversation.
2. There have been some very nasty comments directed at those who criticize the FO a lot, including suggestions that people be banned for it. So, if repetitive criticism in and of itself is an issue, then it should be an issue regardless of target, whether the target is the FO, Scott, Kobe, or John Ireland.
For me personally, it is not an issue. If Clay Bertrand wants to post multiple times in every thread, using caps and exclamation points to tell us that he wants Byron fired, then I am fine with that, and even if I am not, this is DS’s house, not mine. But I think that the same standard should be applied, and if people want to argue that Byron deserves the daily flack while the FO does not, then we can have that conversation.
nimble says
Let Russ play 40-42 mins per game.
david h says
darius: due to health reasons, byron scott should step down as coach.
prognosis: we’re all pretty much sick of coach scott.
Go Lakers
Clay Bertrand says
rr: WORD bro!!!! I do love me my CAPS and exclamations in this forum!!! Absent emojis and a sarcasm font, the CAPS and !!!s are the only way to show any emotion!!! Don’t you AGREE!!!!!!!
Re: Multiple posts —Multi posting in the same thread isn’t against the rules of proper forum etiquette that I know of…..But I generally post multiple times on different topics or to respond to the comments of other posters. I hope that isn’t gettin on folks’ nerves…..
I agree with you fully that repetition is just par for the course with this type of forum set up. Some are here regularly and some just on occasion. We do have overlapping comments as well I think often because the comments don’t post immediately but are frequently moderated (at least mine are).
I post here because its the most sane and knowledegable Forum base I have found on the Lakers and because every time I have read something Darius has written, it tends to be right in line with my own opinions as well.
Frankly, other than blatant flaming, trolling, advertising how much your aunt makes an hour doing whatever, or posting just nonsense to piss people off, I don’t think ANYONE should be banned here. I understand that TRADE talk is a BANNABLE offense in these parts which is a little heavy handed IMO. I say live and let live….but that’s DS’s call…..
Lastly, one thing I try to do in my posts when appropriate is offer at least SOME form of solution or path I think should be followed. Bellowing about problems without offering an alternative approach is grasping for low hanging fruit. We all SEE the problems…..What can be done to FIX them though???? Power to the People!!!!!!!!!
I like when people here give their opinions beyond “Byron must go…” “Jim Buss is stupid….” “Kobe is the greatest…” etc.
This is just Therapy for me!!!!!! I assume I’m not the only one……
Darius Soriano says
Clay, RR,
From the commenting guidelines at the top of the page:
6). We use complete sentences here, not ALL CAPS or short cuts u luv. This is not an IM conversation. That said, there’s no need to mock others grammar.
8). Try not to make the same point over and over, the goal is a ranging discussion.
Just so we’re all on the same page…
Jim C. says
rr:
Thanks for the response.
A. I don’t think the Lakers are thinking of just this year. I agree that Lou, Kobe and Young all taken together aren’t a good trio to surround Russell with. But I’m, also not convinced that they’re all in the long-term plans. Lou as a longterm plan as a backup guard who can play either position makes sense. Kobe is likely retired after this year. And I truly believe that Young is trade bait, but if he isn’t he’s a perfectly valid man to receive Russell’s assists.
We also have to remember that the Lakers brought in Marcelo Huertas as somebody who is likely supposed to be the PG model.
B. Fair point on the bland answer thing, but I also think the FO has to balance being bland with…selling tickets. After two horrifically bad years for a fanbase not used to losing, I think the FO had to throw out a “we’re going to be contending for the playoffs” bit of red meat to the masses.
C. We seem to be in agreement on the “FO should fire him if they think he’s hurting the youngsters” point, but I’m curious as to your own thoughts on the matter. Your posts are pretty measured and thoughtful. Do YOU think he’s hurting the development of the prospects?
On the issue of repetitiveness, I don’t dive into the comments sections of FB&G that often so we may be coming from a different perspective here.
For me personally, I think the season has to be about two things and not one. We’ve mentioned player development. Everybody is already in agreement on that one for the most part.
But I think the second thing has to be showing signs of progress. Not just so that the FO can continue to sell tickets, but also to contribute to player development and avoid a losing culture like Philly has AND to better position LA as a landing spot in the minds of free agents.
Free agents WILL want to come to LA…if the team seems like it’s on the upswing and is a player or two away from being a longterm contender. If Russell, Clarkson and Randle all look like above-average to all-star caliber players that are a year or two away while the Lakers find a way to win 30 games, then that’s an easy vision to sell to free agents.
If, on the other hand, if none of them are seeing the floor during the most important moments of the game and Byron is riding some combination of Kobe, MWP, Nick Young, Lou Williams and Brandon Bass hard in crunch time…then what free agent is going to want to be a part of that or believe that the Lakers have a plan and a vision for the future?
bluehill says
rr – Your about how Denver’s roster is structured to develop Mudiay is a big (imo) difference between us and some of the other rebuilding teams. The Lakers have competing priorities – short-term focus on wins, longer-term develop of young players – and we know the likely reason for this conflict. Denver, NYC, Minn, Boston, Philly etc all have more flexibility than we do in how they structure their rosters, who plays and setting expectations. The FO bears responsibility for not clarifying the priorities for Byron, setting expectations for the fans as well as getting us into this situation to begin with.
On a side note, I’m watching more games so far this year than last because I’m interested in seeing how this new core develops. These guys represent hope for a better future. Yes, I hate losing, but I understand where the team is at. I don’t know what the ratings have been so far this season, but I believe that there is more interest this year because of the new guys. If part of the FO’s thinking is that the team needs to win to help ratings, I think ratings will be relatively better if they focus on the new guys rather than eking out a few more wins playing the old guys.
Clay Bertrand says
Kobe is out again. Let’s see if Russell tops last night’s 21 minutes.
Robert says
rr: While I agree with 95% of your post. This made me laugh – “and turn the team over to Pressey or Madsen on an interim basis” Nice ! The summer league threads when Madsen was coaching us are still in the archives : )
Clay: “Embrace the losses” We do not have a choice. Playing the kids is part of that. Putting them in a situation to thrive is another. Is NY helping create a good situation? Is Lou? We know Kobe was going to be here, but your Kobe-less Laker dream is only going to become the Lou/Nick show.
Byron: Bash away if it makes you feel better. Some bash the FO; some bash Kobe. Just don’t try to tell me that one bashing is more justified or intellectual than the next. My logic is that Kobe and Byron are where they are due to the FO – but that is just me. If you think all will be better with those two out of the way – then have at it. However, if later this year Mark Madsen is coaching a team where Nick Young and Lou Williams are doing their best imitations of World B Free and Vinny Microwave Johnson, then don’t blame me if this does not help the kids : )
Rod says
What does Lou Williams’ presence have anything to do with D’Angelo Russell? I’m sorry, but what has Williams done this year so far? Shoot less than 40 percent from the field? That’s your reigning Sixth Man Of The Year? That’s the overrated acquisition you prefer to play over Russell? Really? Seriously, dude? First of all, Russell is a point guard and this shot-chucker Williams is a shooting guard, a term that’s clearly used far too generously for his overrall lack of talents and positive impact on the game. Russell’s development is far more important than giving away valuable minutes to NBA players like Williams that are what they are at this point and will never get any better for that matter. Russell plays with far more poise and purpose than Williams and Young do combined. Perhaps, if Scott feels that he is too important to develop these young players then he should be relieved of such a burden and let him find the door. It’s the one with the large exit sign above it. This isn’t about Scott, nor is it about Kobe anymore. This is about the development of the Lakers’ young and talented players. For, it is they that lay the future of this franchise and not some dried-out, old-ass, played-out, used-up, washed-up has-beens that aren’t worth two dead smashed.
Justin says
@Basquiatball, I have heard that Russell is a very cerebral player and that’s why he plays better in the second half. He starts learning players tendencies and starts really exploiting them. This goes for both offense and defense.
As for the overall discussion, I am completely fine with firing Byron if the FO wants to. The theory I have is that Byron wants Russell to appreciate playing in crunch time. Make him see that even though he is the #2 pick that it is still a privilege and not a right. Byron is about building a mindset and a culture. Russell will work out on his own and improve more in the gym than he will in a game. He did basically the same thing last year with Clarkson. If you hand someone the keys they don’t always do what is best. Sometimes you want to mold them. There is a mindset that is important and I hope that is what the Lakers are doing (again just my theory). Byron doesn’t come across as this smart so it does scare me, but right now I think that is what he is doing.
rr says
Do YOU think he’s hurting the development of the prospects?
—
I don’t see much evidence for it. Clarkson has exceeded expectations; Randle looks pretty good. Nance has looked OK when he has been out there, and Nance and ABrown are both guys in their early 20s with a lot of college experience in any case. As to Russell, I don’t see anything unreasonable about breaking in a 19-year-old point guard who lacks John Wall’s jets and hops more slowly than fans might wish. Russell is a teenager who has played seven NBA games, and I guarantee that if Byron were playing him 35 MPG and Russell was struggling late in games, you would see a bunch of people saying that Byron is rushing Russell, killing his confidence, wasting the FO’s shrewd acquisition of Lou Williams, etc. And, if the team had won the two close games rather than losing them and was 3-4, there would be less yelling about Scott. The counter of course is that Scott’s bad coaching is why they lost the close ones, but even in a one-point game, you can point to many things, not just one.
Basically, a lot of people on the net just don’t much like anything about Byron and didn’t want him here to begin with, and that was also the case with Brown and D’Antoni. That is one problem with hiring retreads, and the FO has made three consecutive retread coaching hires in which the guy in question essentially had no honeymoon period with the fanbase and the Lakers internet community, and fans are always harder on coaches when that is the case.
Finally, everybody is emotionally invested in the young guys, and many are emotionally invested in the FO, so as I and others said in preseason, when the young guys have problems, people want that to be about Byron and Kobe—not about the young guys and the FO. Things seem much less bleak if the rebuild is actually progressing fine and will kick into high gear once Byron and Kobe are gone.
All that said, this question is to some extent one of those unknowables. I think you would need to be around practice, the bench, the clubhouse etc to really have a handle on whether Byron Scott is hurting the Lakers’ young players as they begin their careers.
Calvin says
KO – hilarious post!
bleedpurplegold says
Fee thouggts onsome of those comments above:
@rr:
I disagree with your suggestion this roster is not constructed to dar strength. I think we all can agree that his 2 biggest strengths are vision/passing and 3 point shooting. Well, for strength #1, i think FO thought kobe would at least hit a 35% clip from 3 and 45% from 2 point range with all those looks he is getting from russ (he does get those). Add 2 slashers in randle and clarkson who, in my opinion, make some good cuts and his usual tricks and he has some weapons. Thing is, kobe doesnt hit his J right now and those 2 other guys often seem surprised by his passes. Also, if he is playing with 2nd unit guys, those are shooters (nick, lou, kelly). Now look at them: lou 32% / 20 from three, kelly is shooting horrific numbers, nick doesnt pull up most of the time, he wants it the flashy way even if he gets an open look(but he is doing great so far). So who exactly is bringing his game right now?!? I think if they would do as expected from them, DAR could easily sit at 7ast per right now
On to strength #2, his shooting.he can knock down open Js, he simply doesnt get the ball. Kobe is hookin up bad shots all over the place instead of going inside, drawing the double and kicking it out.. randle has his head down most of the time going inside, and clarkson is a little too selfish right now to my liking, he could certainly give him a good look here and there with his slashing ability. Bench is the same: i expected lou to use his vision a bit more, but he and nick seem to have a shootout nearly every game off the bench. I wouldnt blame only the FO for those shortcomings, but his teammates as well…they could certainly do more to bump DARs stats a bit
@Clay, darius
While we agree in principle (let the kids play), and i also see those numbers going up in the 2nd half, i can certainly see where byron is coming from in sitting russell at the end. We have to understand that this are the lakers we are talking about. As a fan we dont see it this way, but it is way harder to play and lose a game LA than it is in denver, especially with those guys taken behind DAR. When we took russ, there were many guys saying we should have taken oak or someone else, those words would come up and grow exponentionally if he would have blown 2,3 games at the beginning of the season. The media would let hell break loose, fans on the internet would go crazy. This is a 19 year old kid we talking about, this would certainly not go by him unnoticed, perhaps even shake his confidence to a point where he thinks too much. This is NOT what we want to have to deal with regarding our future franchise PG.
@ Jim C
Fully agree with your comment regarding guys like MWP and Hibbert. While i want to have as much young talent in a rebuilding process as possible, you need to have guys being able to teach our young guns.
Go Lakers!
rr says
I disagree with your suggestion this roster is not constructed to dar strength.
—
The Lakers have three veteran perimeter players, one of whom is a nominal PG–Williams, Young, and Kobe–who are ball-dominant and who are known for shooting a lot. They also have a ball-dominant combo guard in Clarkson. Add that to the FO/ownership/coaching/Kobe dynamics, and it is not an optimal situation for a rookie PG.
So it isn’t about Russell’s “strengths” per se; rather, it is about atmosphere/opportunity/interaction/fit/direction. Clarkson is obviously a keeper and Kobe is Kobe. Young’s deal was a bad idea from the get-go, and with Williams, maybe they can trade him.
Calvin says
they need to just just put him out there. let him sink or swim. the team isn’t going anywhere this season so why not
Jei Shun says
I think Byron is doing the same thing what he did with JC last year, imo, he’s building a mindset that being a top 2 pick is not always the key for success but its about the previliege though JC is not a top lottery pick but played like one 😀
Never mind about the other teams, they also have another strategy to build its youngsters, we do have as well.
Im not a BS fan but i do get his point, wait for your turn like what JC last year . I will let them see your potential once in a while, study the game and pace with your poise and confidence with charisma and unleash you later on .
i know JC and DAR shouldnt be compared but I think BS is doing the same thing he did to JC last year to DAR this year.