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Your 08-09 Laker Roster
June 20th, 2008

I think the best way to start a look at the off-season and any potential moves is to see what you’ve got. So what follows is a break-down of the Lakers roster by position going into next year, with a few comments after each player (some longer than others). At the end we’ll break down the total numbers and I’ll give some general thoughts. Almost all the salary info comes from the best source for that on the Web, Draft Express.

    Point Guards

Derek Fisher. back for sure. Under contract for two more years, about $8 million total. He need to spend this summer getting his foot healthy(remember he played the last couple months with ligament issues). One priority for Phil Jackson is to keep his minutes down during the regular season next year (whether he comes off the bench or starts). He is not getting younger and the legs need to be rested.

Jordan Farmar, back for sure. Signed for next year at $1.1 Mil, team option for 2009-10 at $1.9 mil, restricted free agent after that (meaning the Lakers can match any offer). One thing I’m not worried about is Jordan Farmar working hard this summer — he may have the second best work ethic on the team. He’s always going to struggle some to cover strong PGs (ala Deron Williams) but he is a solid defender (opposing PG’s shot a pretty average 47.5% eFG% against him last year and had a slightly higher than average 16.5 PER). The real question here is, what do you sign him for in two years?

    Shooting Guards

Kobe Bryant, back for sure. On the books for three more years at $69 mil total , but can opt out of his contract in June of 2009. I don’t know about you guys, but I think we should keep him. Seriously, he’s not going anywhere, but if the Lakers want to they could start a conversation about extending his deal after next season (not much negotiation involved, this is a max deal). He’ll play in the Olympics then get surgery. Some guys you worry about not getting rest in the summer, not so much with Kobe. He wouldn’t have let himself rest anyway.

Sasha Vujacic, Restricted free agent. That means he can shop around but the Lakers can match whatever another team offers. After the way he played this year there might be some teams interested, but nobody really makes offers on restricted free agents because if he’s a decent player and its not a crazy Thomas-era Knicks overpriced offer the team with rights matches it. The question is, what is he worth — he made $1.8 mil this year. I’d say somewhere between $3 mil and $4 mil.

Which brings us to the second, and a bigger question: Do the Lakers use some of their mid-level exception (MLE) to sign Vujacic to save the luxury tax problems, or do they bite the bullet on Sasha to keep the MLE for a free agent? Fans always want to spend, but it’s not their money.

Coby Karl, who knows if he is back. The Lakers have a team option for $711,000 for next year. It’s hard to say much about how he’ll fit in down the line because we haven’t seen him enough. However, with a pretty full roster and he likely will be battling this year’s second-round pick and some summer camp guys for the last roster spot.


    Small Forwards

Lamar Odom, very likely will be back. He has owed $14.1 mil for next season but has an expiring contract. He’s become a favorite whipping boy of some Lakers fans after the finals, and he played much of the year at the power forward spot.

Next year, with Bynum and Gasol, he would be asked to play the three spot in the triangle, and ultimately the big question is can he fit in playing that role? What is expected of the guy playing the three? I’ll let Darius explain.

From my standpoint, ideally, the SF must be a versatile player that does many things well. I mean, a SF in this system should be a good ballhandler, be able to shoot with range, be able to score inside, be a good passer, move well off the ball, be able to read defenses, play strong perimeter D, and ultimately have a high BB IQ (think Pippen and, though a much lesser athlete, Rick Fox). In my honest opinion, we don’t have the prototypical Triangle SF on this roster, but we do have guys that possess many of the traits/skills needed (just not all of them in the same player).

Before you start saying “Odom doesn’t have all those qualities” ask yourself this: How many guys in the league do? He can rebound, he can lead the break, his is a good ballhandler and his hoops IQ is good. The questions are how well he can defend opposing small forwards and can he be a good enough shooter to spread the floor. The reason Radmanovic started in the playoffs and Finals despite mental lapses on defense was he could stretch the floor. Guys can’t sag off Radman, they can sag off Odom. I like that Odom said he planned to work on his outside shot this summer, that will be a big key for next year, and I think he understands that.

For those of you who think Odom may not fit at the three, you have some good company. David Thorpe (the best of ESPN.com’s analysts and the executive director pro hoops training at IMG) said in an email he isn’t sold either:

Odom is not as good of a 3 as he is a 4. His lack of quickness for the position and his willingness to be a “floater” as a 3 are both problematic. Stan van Gundy saved his career by playing him as a 4 and really challenging him to be a rebounder/scorer (that season still marks as his best ever, I think). Playing the 4 often forces him to be near the rim, which both allows him to use his terrific length to make paint plays and keeps him from launching too many three-pointers (he’s just able enough as a 3 point shooter to be dangerously bad for LA) or long and medium range two’s. He’s not good at either. He plays too much of the game, as a ball handler, at one speed, and that speed is 3rd gear (out of 5). That works against many power forwards, but not against most small ones. Yes, he’d be a tough matchup on the offensive glass, but that would not make up for his struggles to score efficiently as a 3. And he’d get exposed often on defense as well. Ultimately, I just feel like his overall effectiveness would drop.

Here’s my bottom line: I don’t know if the front line of Odom/Gasol/Bynum will work. Ultimately nobody does because we haven’t seen it. But getting a player who is a better fit for what the Lakers want at the three is going to be very hard to find. Trades are not going to come easily. The only way I’d make a summer deal is if it was too good to pass up. I think you need to give all that potential of LO/Gasol/Bynum chance then, if it is not working out, see what deadline trades may be available.

Trevor Ariza, almost certainly back. Player option for next year for $3.1 mil. While he could test the market after that injury it would be impossible to find someone willing to pay more than what the Lakers will pay him, so expect him to say. I think he could be what we need at the three save for one thing — his outside shooting. Last year he shot 33% on jump shots and 27.8% from three, that is not going to stretch the floor. Someone said in the comments he should shoot 300 corner threes a day, and I think that sounds about right. How much he plays next year will depend on how consistent his outside shot becomes.

Vladimir Radmanovic, back for sure. Two years left on his deal, plus a player option for a third, next year at $6 mil. You may want to trade him, but nobody wants him at that price. I think he can be a solid player off the bench, a guy who could come in and light up second units with threes, he’s valuable as one of those flexible pieces that Phil can use for matchups. Just asking him to be a starter in the finals is too much.

Luke Walton, back for sure. Four years left on his deal, at $4.2 mil next year. I could pretty much cut and past my Radmanovic comments here. There is not going to be much trade interest at that price and length of contract. He can be valuable off the bench and in certain matchups, but asking him to do things like cover Paul Pierce is inviting disaster. He’s a nice role player to have, though.

Ira Newble, likely not back. Look at it this way — when the Lakers needed a defensive stopper for Pierce in the Finals, Ira was glued to the bench. Phil clearly felt that whatever Ira could give was not going to be as good as what was out there (rumors are he never really understood the offense). That tells you plenty.

    Power Forwards

Pau Gasol, back for sure. Three more seasons on his deal, makes $15 mil next year. As a Laker he shot 58.9% from the floor, scored 18.9 points per game, grabbed 12.2% of the rebounds available and had a PER very close to Kobe’s. Yes, he got thee “soft” tag in the Finals, but again we had to ask him to be what he is not. He is not a banger and a physical force, he is more finesse. Nothing wrong with that if he is paired with a more physical front line guy, right?

Well, again, we have to see it in action to believe it. David Thorpe, for one, isn’t sold:

Four years ago I think Gasol could have been an excellent 4 next to Bynum. But he’s not the shooter he once was, and is far more effective inside the paint or close by. Study his Hot Spot stats at NBA.com. I’ve heard this from International scouts as well, who feel Gasol was a much better face up player on the perimeter a few years back. His very poor perimeter shooting in the playoffs hurt LA. I’m a big fan of his, but not as a 4, anymore. Could he prove me wrong-absolutely, and it’s far more likely than Odom playing great as a 3, but it’s not close to a sure thing.

According to 82games.com, 35% of Gasol’s shots were jumpers and he hit 45% of those. Not bad numbers for a seven footer, but to be sure his midrange game was off in the playoffs. Gasol will be playing for Spain this summer (it’s going to be interesting on this board if USA and Spain meet) and maybe playing international ball helps him find that midrange game again. He needs to because it will be a key to the front line working next year.

Ronny Turiaf: Restricted free agent. I guess we’re going to see what kind of love there is for Ronny out on the open market. First off, I think I speak for most Laker fans when I say we want him back, maybe at a higher price than he is really worth. We love this guy. And as with Sasha, other teams will be hesitant to come after him because the Lakers can match any offer, but you know there is some interest out there. Turiaf made $770,000 last year, and I think his real value is about double that and a contract of three years. Also like Sasha, do the Lakers use part of their MLE here?

    Centers

Andrew Bynum, back for sure. He is under contract next year for $2.7 mil and is a restricted free agent the year after that. This is the summer the Lakers need to make a long-term offer for Bynum, which leads to the question what is he worth? My gut reaction is a five year deal at about $50-$55 mil, not quite a max deal but he is coming off an injury. If I were Bynum I’d want a three-year deal at $11 per, with the thinking I would be 24 at the end of it and in the perfect spot for a five-year max deal. We’ll see what gets worked out.

As for him this off-season, get healthy and hit the gym. Come back in shape like he did last fall (or better) and be ready for what will be a fun year.

Chris Mihm, back for sure. Player option for next year at $2.7 mil. Lakers fans may not want him back but there is no way Mihm does not pick up that option. Personally, I don’t mind having him back because I may be one of the three people left on the planet holding out hope he can return to his pre-injury form. If so, he is the backup big we need. Remember in the 04-05 season he shot 50% from the floor, grabbed 15% of the available rebounds, blocked 1.4 shots per game and had a PER of 15.7 (just above average), plus he was the second most consistent Laker in terms of hustle that year. I want that Chris Mihm back.

DJ Mbenga, likely not back. He’s an unrestricted free agent. I like the guy, but we may be able to find a better backup big out on the open market. If not, he’s an inexpensive fallback.

——————————————————-

Here is where the Lakers are next year as of now: 10 guys who are back for sure, and that makes up the core of the starters and key role guys. That kind of consistency is huge, as is having them all for a training camp and entire season next year. I think the Lakers want to bring back Sasha and Turiaf, so long as another team does not make a crazy offer for them. That would be 12 players, and the Lakers want 14 on the roster. That leaves room to find one veteran free agent with the MLE and keep either Kobe Carl or this year’s second-round pick (either way that guy is spending most of the year with the D-Fenders).

Already, without Sasha and Turiaf, the Lakers salary is at $70 million for next year, way over the cap and pushing the luxury tax. Buss will be paying some tax next year, the question is how much is he willing to pay?

Bottom line, as constructed now this is a roster that will contend for a title next year. Some tweaks may be needed, but even if nothing happens the Lakers are in a good spot. And that makes me as a Lakers fan happy. We are in a position this summer to wait for good offers, not just take what comes along. We can bargain from a position of power.

————————————————-

Here is how we are going to handle the comments on this post. I am going to allow some leeway in discussing other players the Lakers should go after, guys the Lakers should look at in trades or free agency. For example, to say the Lakers should look at Posey is totally fair game (he is an unrestricted free agent). What will not be allowed is: 1) Detailed five-team trade proposals, those things almost never happen and this is not your fantasy league; 2) Absolute crazy talk, like that the Lakers should trade LO for Wade (I’ll give you a hint, I don’t think Miami is going to let him go). Know this, just because it goes through on the ESPN trade machine doesn’t mean the teams involved want to do it. Think it through. In the spirit of the site, let’s keep this thoughtful and well reasoned. And play nice with one another. Know that I will bring the editing hammer down hard and fast on this if it starts to get out of control.

Posted in Uncategorized |
237 Comments »

  1. I agree, I do not think management should overreact and blow the roster up. See what happens with a healthy Bynum (knee), Fisher (foot), Bryant (hand) and Ariza (foot), plus a full camp of everyone together. Yes, they looked horrible against Boston but against the Western conference, they looked great. Keep Sasha and Ronny but don’t overpay.

    If they do look to add a veteran, Posey’s a decent choice but what about Artest. I know he said he’s 99% sure he’s not opting out but he could be convinced considering the Kings are light years away from contending. He could be that missing piece.

    Comment by Smooth — June 20, 2008 @ 10:11 am

  2. 1. Two names that seem to be popping up a lot in rumors outside of Artest are Richard Jefferson and Antwan Jamison. I think both of them, while less talented than Odom, would be better fits on the offensive and defensive end, particularly Jefferson. Thoughts on these two guys.

    2. I think you have to go after Posey and any other guy with his toughness.

    3. My completely out of left field choice would be Stephen Jackson. He’s tough. He can shoot the three. He has championship experience. He can play really well without being the star on a team. I have not looked at any numbers to see if a deal for him would even be possible, but I think he would be a great guy with Kobe.

    Comment by Shon — June 20, 2008 @ 10:14 am

  3. Smooth - I would love Artest, but I’m not sure he would opt out of his contract, so that means we would need a sign and trade. That’s problematic on two fronts. First, I don’t think the Maloofs are going to want to do anything that could even remotely help us. Second, Artest is even better friends with Odom than he is with Kobe. It’s hard for me to imagine a deal to bring him in without including Odom. Would ARtest be willing to come here without Odom in the line-up?

    Comment by Shon — June 20, 2008 @ 10:17 am

  4. I posted this before somewhere but I’ll do it again here:

    I hate the idea of Artest. Yes he is tough and can defend, but I think he is a horrific fit in the triangle. He has never played well within any offense, I think like Gary Payton he’d chaff inside the confines of the triangle. I think he’s a bad influence on the youth. He can shoot the three ball (38% last year) but he is not a good scorer in the midrange and he shot 5% worse than Odom overall last year. And worst of all, you think Odom doesn’t show up for games — have you watched Artest? He takes far more nights off. I would rather keep Odom around than bring him in,

    Comment by Kurt — June 20, 2008 @ 10:19 am

  5. I’d have to agree with Smooth, with one caveat:

    I wouldn’t mind Artest, he would bring defensive skill and toughness, which we have been lacking, only thing that bothers me is that I would be wary about him going crazy…he’s kind of a powder keg, but maybe his reputation preceeds him, maybe he’ll be like Rasheed in Detroit, except for us.

    Posey’s great as well, he seems to have taken the mantle from Robert Horry as 3 point bomber, although not as dramatic.

    Comment by ron1ndon — June 20, 2008 @ 10:21 am

  6. I must admit I cannot come up with any really great ideas. If it is a trade, then it probably involves Lamar and I don’t think we can trade his salary and get equivalent quality back without really messing up the roster.

    Anyone we sign off the street must be able to grasp the triangle quickly and will probably expect some starting minutes. I really don’t think there are any triangle starters out there who are remotely available/affordable.

    Who gets replaced on the starting roster? Bynum - no, Gasol - no, Kobe - give me a break, Fisher - we have Farmar. That leaves Lamar and we have Ariza. I just don’t see any real holes.

    Ok then, we must want to sign someone for our 2nd unit. Let’s see: Farmar/Fisher - no, Sasha - not unless he goes elsewhere, Mihm/Turiaf - not probable, Turiaf/Vlade - possible, but not likely. That leaves Lamar/Walton/Ariza - I just don’t see it. Perhaps, if Turiaf leaves we will need to sign a PF/C, but that is about it.

    After beating myself around the head I don’t see any obvious weaknesses, nor do I see stars coming in to play in a strong 2nd unit.

    I think we sit tight and weight for that offer we just can’t refuse. Of course Mitch will be talking and he will also be creative, but I just don’t see much.

    Comment by Craig W. — June 20, 2008 @ 10:26 am

  7. Odom is a versatile player and brings a lot to the table. Nevertheless, with his talent and an expiring contract the Lakers must strongly consider trading him to upgrade the team. I think one thing that could really help the Lakers is bringing in a pure shooter. Sasha, Fisher, Vlad and Farmar are more streaky shooters than anything else. If I was the Lakers - and didn’t mind luxury tax considerations - I would target Michael Redd. If media reports are to be believed, the bucks may be looking to shed salary. Kobe could move the three spot. The one draw back is that he is suspect defensively. Neverthless, if Ray Allen can hold his own defensively within a team concept why can’t Red. A lineup of Fisher, Redd, Kobe, Gasol and Bynum would put a lot of pressure on opposing defenses. Moreover, Redd’s shooting would open up the Lane for Kobe to drive and Gasol and Bynum to work down low. It certainly would help against the Celtics stout defense. Additionally, with Ariza, a helathy Mimm and Turiaf coming off the bench the Lakers have the potential to be a solid defensive team.

    Comment by Big Dave — June 20, 2008 @ 10:26 am

  8. I agree with Kurt. Artest is a very talented player, but I just don’t see him playing within the offense. He hasn’t done it his whole career and I don’t see him starting to just because he is on the Lakers. Its a huge risk. At the beginning of last year it might have been worth the risk, but now I’m not so sure, particularly not in a trade.

    Richard Jefferson would be a good fit at the 3. But I don’t think there is any realistic way of that deal being done. NJ is not going to trade Jefferson for nothing except Odom’s expiring contract.

    The Lakers could use a player like Battier or Posey; a perimeter player that will hit open shots and play great defense. Don’t think anyone like that is available. If Ariza works hard enough this off season he could potentially be that player. He needs to work with Farmar this summer they are both UCLA guys.

    Comment by ryan — June 20, 2008 @ 10:35 am

  9. Posey is probably ideal, but a) I now hate him and b) I have faith in Ariza gaining some consistency in his 3 point shot…if he could get up to 35% or so I would be content, and that is what, 8% away from his current average? Totally feasible and a much cheaper option than Posey

    Not sure if alot of people remember this but early in the season after Kwame went down they ran a starting lineup of Bynum-Turiaf-Odom front line, Turiaf was fantastic (I think we forgot how good this guy was at the beginning of the season, he might have just been worn down) but Odom just never got it going…he still doesn’t really know how to post up (Shawn Marion might disagree with that statement) and I don’t think there will be many opportunities for him to post up smaller SF’s with Gasol and Bynum around anyways…his offensive output at this point consists of sizing up bigger and slower guys and taking them off the dribble which just won’t be available at the 3 next year

    Comment by Goo — June 20, 2008 @ 10:36 am

  10. I only saw game 5 of the finals, and while I hated the defense, I was actually more infuriated with the fact that the lakers were taking a whole lot of jumpshots (granted some of them were open and we just missed).

    Which got me thinking, Offensively, I really would want a player (a guard actually) who’s skill set just consisted of slashing moves and a devil may care attitude who’d just drive and wouldn’t kick out, and force his way in (kinda like a Machine that drives instead of outside shots). Someone who knows that he won’t really be useful outside and wouldn’t mind any misses, blocks, or hard hits and just aggressively get to the rim.

    I’m not saying he will have to be a player that can stay long in the court, even just for 5-10 minutes who can break those spurts when the Lakers are contented with Jumpers.

    Two things however, First is I’m not so sure Coach Phil is willing to insert guys into a rotation just to break a unit’s mentality. And the other is that while I haven’t really seen Ariza’s play but reading his description seems to me like he’s that type of guy (perhaps without the aggression part? but some of his dunks in youtube seemed to be filled with it).

    I say this because a few years back, we got von wafer and my thought was that he was taken as a one dimensional player for spot situations when we need some sniping from the outside (similarly, Mike Penberthy being included in the playoff roster a few more years back). So I got thinking and had this idea that maybe we can get that someone who instead of snipes, drives.

    Comment by Mico — June 20, 2008 @ 10:43 am

  11. I love having Odom for who he seems to be as a person. He is always smiling and seems to be have a positive attitude. If we are to bring in a replacement, we need to not just replace the stats he posts night in and night out, we need to replace the attitude of the guy. Artest has always seemed to be a loose cannon and Stephen Jackson has a reputation that speak for itself. Chemistry is nor just basketball skills/iq but attitude/personality as well. I think we have a great team and fear making a trade must take this factor into perspective.

    Comment by Danny — June 20, 2008 @ 10:44 am

  12. This video is precisely why we need Vujacic back next season
    Rated PG and very funny IMO

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uOnCRzBrgg

    Comment by FLan — June 20, 2008 @ 10:54 am

  13. If Odom is not traded, another option is to bring him off the bench. The idea of Ariza starting (assuming he improves his outside shooting) has possibilities. This would drastically improve the Lakers defensively. Moreover, a second unit of Vlad/Walton/Sasha, Odom, Farmar, Turiaf and Mimm would not be nothing to sneeze at. Its worth a look.

    Comment by Big Dave — June 20, 2008 @ 10:57 am

  14. Are there any players that might be available this summer in the Shane Battier mold?

    I really don’t want Odom to go…I’d like to see how the Bynum/Gasol/Odom frontline works. But if we had to make a change, I think someone with the inteligence, desire, and skillset of Battier could be a valuable piece to the team.

    I just don’t know who’s available.

    Comment by paydawg — June 20, 2008 @ 11:03 am

  15. Man, we have a lot of guys who need to work on their jumpshot next year. But if Ariza can learn to hit that corner three and Pau can make that 15 footer from the elbow, we’ll be dangerous.

    I HATE the idea of Artest, I don’t think you guys quit realize how AWFUL an offensive player he is. He chucks up shots, shoots a low percentage, and dominates the ball for no reason. I love his defense, love his intensity, and I’m not even that worried about his attitude, but he’d be a horrible addition.

    I’ll post what i posted about Odom on the last thread:
    I don’t think Lamar can play a good 3 in the triangle. He can’t shoot, and he has no confidence in it. With the twin towers (assuming, of course), the lane will be packed as it is. He worked well playing the 4 and playing off of Gasol, to an extent, but he still struggled in the lane, and his tendency to hang out around 18 feet hurt our offensive rebounding, and our floor spacing (since, when he was at the 3 point line, he was useless).

    How do we utilize his skills? Easy, put him as the four in the second unit. If we assume a Fish/Kobe/Ariza/Gasol/Bynum starting lineup, I like the second unit with Farmar/Sasha/VladRad/Odom/Turiaf. They can RUN like nobodies business, VladRad helps with the rebounding and will be able to space the floor. Turiaf can work either the low or high post switching off with Lamar. The key to this lineup? Turiaf has to work on his offensive game A LOT, and be able to make plays if they creep out on our shooters. But Lamar would be able to run, board, and also do a lot of his slashing to the basket against weaker second units. He can use his savvy to set up our shooters, as well. He and Turiaf could also work the high post and get Farmar or Sasha cutting to the basket. I think thats a really, really strong and quick second unit, and would make the best of Lamar’s skills.

    I DO NOT believe we should trade him. Firstly, we’d have to take on A LOT of salary for the future, and this expiring contract will help us going into the 2010 season. When we watched our team, we needed two things, and I think a healthy Bynum and an Ariza who can shoot 40% from the corner 3 spot solves BOTH of them. Odom can then fill this niche on the second team, and be very valuable.

    Comment by Ap — June 20, 2008 @ 11:04 am

  16. Why’s Thorpe gotta be such a wet blanket?

    Seriously though, I understand his concerns about Odom, I like him closer to the rim as well, but it’s not like Bynum’s going to be out there for 48 minutes, he’ll have time at the 4 paired with Gasol. And when he is out there with Fisher, Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum he’ll be the forgotten man for defenses, where I think he can excel if he’s aggressive.

    The Gasol concerns on the other hand I don’t really get. It’s not like sliding him to the 4 moves him out to 20 feet. He can stay down low often, and when he’s a little farther back he can use his quick first step to get in closer. And when he has to set up even farther out than that, I don’t mind running the offense through him for his passing ability as the pivot.

    Comment by carter blanchard — June 20, 2008 @ 11:05 am

  17. Kurt-

    Didn’t read through the whole post and all the comments yet, but I think I read that you emailed Thorpe. Any way you can post his the letter/the response?

    Comment by Aaron — June 20, 2008 @ 11:07 am

  18. Aaron, this may make me seem like a name-dropper, but I have had ongoing email conversations with Thorpe as well as others at IMG that were not really intended for publication. I asked him for thoughts on the front line and he said I could publish those, but I’m not going to publish all of that conversation. I think what was used summed up what he is thinking — he is not sold on that trio along the front line. I’m more optimistic about it than he is, but there are concerns worth discussing.

    Comment by Kurt — June 20, 2008 @ 11:13 am

  19. “Know that I will bring the editing hammer down hard and fast on this if it starts to get out of control.” Maybe you should change the site to DraconianBlueandGold.com? Just kidding, I like the restriction and I think it makes for more intelligent conversation. This is why I don’t even visit any other blogs (once in a while the K Bros at LA Times, but I don’t comment). Good fences make good neighbors.

    Anyway, looking at the roster is exciting. I think Ariza and LO could likely start/bench depending upon the match-up. If we need a speed guy to chase someone around, go to Trevor. A slower 3, go to LO. It may hurt consistency, and I would suggest Ariza starting more often than not. Lamar would be an ideal, if highly paid, sixth man who can play several spots and cause a lot of problems for other teams. Solid first and second unit, if everyone returns:

    1-Farmar
    2-Bryant
    3-Ariza
    4-Gasol
    5-Bynum

    1-Fisher
    2-Vujacic
    3-Odom
    4-Turiaf (Odom)
    5-Mihm (Turiaf)

    Just my humble summer opinion. Go Lakers!

    Comment by The Fanalyst — June 20, 2008 @ 11:14 am

  20. 1st off - and Kurt said it best - no Artest! Yes, he can defend, but he is just too unstable, selfish, and weird. I don’t think that he is a better fit than Odom.

    I like the idea of trying Odom as the sixth man, with Ariza starting at the 3 and Odom coming in either at the 4 and Pau slides to 5, or with Mihm and the rest of the Mob. The only problem is end of the 4th quarter - who sits?

    Comment by weston — June 20, 2008 @ 11:15 am

  21. Or Turiaf at center, like carter said.

    Comment by weston — June 20, 2008 @ 11:18 am

  22. How did we end up comparing Lamar with Posey? Lamar is a double/double guy with assists. The team will be fine. I would start Lamar at 4, and bring Pau as 6th man. Trevor should work on his 3 pointer this summer, and if it is good enough, start him at the 3 spot. With Andrew back, and more defense and quickness at the 3, the team can run more. With these changes and the experience of this year (baring major injuries) we will be in good shape to go all the way next season.

    Comment by Washers — June 20, 2008 @ 11:18 am

  23. I have been wracking my brain for the last few days (ie since Game 4) trying to think of a SF who would be able to get his own shot and take some of the defensive pressure off of Kobe. Personally, I think Richard Jefferson is the best option.

    Dont forget NJ called Kupchak last year about the Odom/Jefferson trade and Mitch declined. I know NJ is still shopping RJ and I think Odom’s value won’t get any higher and showed that he is inconsistent in big moments. RJ is a legit SF who is uber-athletic, can shoot/slash and I think would be willing to be the 3rd wheel. His stats were pretty solid as well last season 22.6 PPG 4.2 Reb 3.1 Ast (46.6 FG%, 36% from 3, 17.46 PER)

    Fish/Farmar (who I think will make another big jump this summer), Kobe, RJ, Gasol and Bynum would scare a lot of people.

    Comment by The WeaselD — June 20, 2008 @ 11:20 am

  24. What is the likelihood of Ariza being the starter, and Odom coming off the bench? That improves the perimeter defense at the 3 (one of the bigger weaknesses on the team), a great finisher on fast breaks (arguably better than Odom there, although not as good a ball handler). It also strengthens the bench, particularly in the rebounding area, which was a weakness. And he would be a mismatch for just about any other non-starting 3 or 4 in the league. In the starting lineup, having both Bynum and Gasol will cancel out Odom’s rebounding to some degree, so you don’t lose much there.

    From what I have seen of Artest, his defense would be a great addition. However, on offense he tends to take too many forced shots. I don’t think he would fit in well enough on the offensive side.

    Comment by exhelodrvr — June 20, 2008 @ 11:22 am

  25. Looks like I was soundly beaten to the punch with the “Lamar on the bench” thought!

    Comment by exhelodrvr — June 20, 2008 @ 11:26 am

  26. I gave most of my thoughts on Odom trade at http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/06/17/theres-got-to-be-a-morning-after/#comment-575649

    Two issues now:

    1. Perspective. After a crummy Game 6, it’s easy to lose perspective. We have a young team which despite roster changes, injuries (Fish, Kobe, Gasol ankle, Sasha toe, etc.) and inexperience, got all the way to Game 6 of the FINALS. Is this a team to blow up? Odom, for all his crunch time woes, is flexible/talented enough that he could be insurance against either Bynum or Pau going down. And as people said, he can play 3-5 to exploit matchups and give players a rest. It is a huge risk to trade the guy for anyone. Yeah, I cry as much as anyone when Lamar disappears or won’t finish strong at the rim… but do we really KNOW Marion/AK47/Tayshaun would fit better with the team and offense? We would be messing with a Finals-level formula.

    2. Coby Karl. What the heck is he? I’ve seen him for about ten minutes total this year. Phil clearly thinks he’s a scrub. And yet he has a decent range and (I think to everyone’s shock) can get up and dunk. Is he Sasha from two years ago? What is his upside and what’s holding him back? I always assumed it was an issue of his D, since he is supposed to have a high BB IQ.

    Comment by Apricot — June 20, 2008 @ 11:29 am

  27. A player that I’ll be watching very closely, and I hope that Lakers are too, in the Olympics is Jorge Garbajosa.

    Not only am I a fan of his style and game, but being just recently bought out by the Raptors, if that man is healthy, I would love to see him on the Lakers.

    A selfless player who can play the 3 and 4, and probably wouldn’t be that expensive of a pickup. He can hit the three, defend, rebound, pass, set picks, just a real team player. His connection with Pau would be a plus, and probably a big factor if the two sides entered into negotiations.

    Yet, the Lakers might not want to create a logjam between Jorge, Luke, Trevor, Vladimir, and Lamar–even though 3 of those 5 can play the 4. Management might be more interested in a legit big man to bring off the bench. But if Mihm can return to his better form, and if Garbajosa is healthy and playing well this summer, I think the Lakers ought to consider and take a look.

    The man is a selfless warrior on the court. I wouldn’t expect any chemistry issues, but only solid attitude and play to benefit the team.

    Comment by George — June 20, 2008 @ 11:30 am

  28. From what I understood, the Richard Jefferson talks were always being initiated by the Nets.

    I just don’t think Lamar has got “it.” I would like nothing more than for him to come back and silence all of his critics once and for all, but I just don’t see it.

    Comment by Shon — June 20, 2008 @ 11:35 am

  29. The Fanalyst,
    One comment I heard recently that is worth noting - a reason for Fisher to start and Farmar to relieve. Phil has always wanted a 2nd unit that was very uptempo and measurably changed the pace of the game when they came in. Farmar does this, Fisher doesn’t.

    weston,
    At the end of the 4th qtr Lamar sits - definitely. This is where his lose of focus and composure are the most common and most dangerous.

    The WeaselD,
    Richard Jefferson is at the same salary level as Lamar, but has two more years - a big dollar hit and will really hurt when Bynum’s pay increase comes into effect. Besides, why would NJ want Lamar?

    Comment by Craig W. — June 20, 2008 @ 11:35 am

  30. For the record, Garajosa is under contract for one more year to the Raptors at $4.2 mil.

    Comment by Kurt — June 20, 2008 @ 11:36 am

  31. I honestly don’t think there’s a great solution to our issues with SF. While I’m an advocate of Odom’s, I do agree with David Thorpe. Odom is best used as a 4 around the basket on defense and to rebound and used as an attacker from the perimeter against PF’s that can’t really stay with his quickness away from the basket and with his movement to the bucket. I also think his ability to pass and catch all while on the move are difficult traits to find in players his size, which greater maximizes his advantages against other PF’s.

    I also agree with Kurt on Artest. While Artest is a great talent, his stock has fallen with me over the past season as he consistently took games off and was not nearly as commited to his defense as he was when he was with Indy. Plus, while I’ve read good things about him as a teammate, he is a big personality that has chaffed at the idea of not *being the man* in recent years. Any guy like that (that means you too, Shawn Marion) is a no-no in my book.

    One guy that I’d love to get is the player that Shon mentioned, in Stephen Jackson. I live in Oakland and have seen this guy first hand for the last season and a half. He’s tough, versatile, and really is a team first guy that has real leadership qualities. But the financials don’t work….JackO makes 6.5 mil and Odom is more than double that. And while GS has a trade exception from the Jason Richardson trade, that is for 9.9 mil and can not be used in combination with any other player to make a deal (so theoretically they could trade for a player that makes 10 mil a year while only giving up a min. salary player or a draft pick, but could not combine the exception with Jackson to trade for a player that makes 15 million). And since Odom makes substantially more than 9.9 mil we can’t just flip Odom for the trade exception and then do a side deal where we trade a guy like RadMan (salary matches) for Jackson, which is what a lot of teams do with trade exceptions. So, while I’d love Jackson, I don’t think there’s any way we can make that work without making the trade much larger or bringing in other teams which I won’t even speculate about, if only because it’s pointless (not only do they rarely work out, I’d then have to go in and edit/delete my own post)…

    And while I do like the idea of Jamison or Jefferson, they are more offensive minded, and to me at least, have not proven to be guys that are real stoppers on defense or even guys that have a defense first mindset. These guys would do well in our offense, but honestly, Jefferson is not a strong shooter from range and while Jamison can shoot from range, he was like Odom in that he has been playing PF and it’s easier to space the floor when you are being guarded by bigger players who would rather defend the paint.

    Like I said, I really don’t know if there is a *great* solution out there. And with that being the case, next season I’d rather go at it with what we’ve already got then trade a really good player who knows this team for a guy who may have his own issues with fitting in the way we need him to.

    Comment by Darius — June 20, 2008 @ 11:36 am

  32. For our second round pick, I’d love to see them either keep it or trade up a little to get a young European player to keep overseas. 1. Most European leagues are tougher than the NBDL, and 2. Look at what kind of success the Spurs have had with this route

    Comment by DTC — June 20, 2008 @ 11:52 am

  33. I’d never fault the Buss’s for not using the MLE, but I’d love for the Lakers to make a run at Sagana Diop, who I believe is a unrestricted FA. He’s a huge presence and a very good defensive center

    Comment by DTC — June 20, 2008 @ 11:56 am

  34. DTC,
    I think Mark Cuban is going to make sure Sagana Diop returns to the Mavericks.

    Comment by Craig W. — June 20, 2008 @ 12:08 pm

  35. Personally, all this free agent and trade talk is fun, but the reality is that there is no perfect solution. The Lakers were 2 games away from the championship, so the formula they have in place is pretty darn good.

    Take a piece out of Hollinger’s article today, trading Odom for someone like Artest is like “hitting on 19 in blackjack. Hey, maybe the dealer throws out a 2 and everyone thinks you’re a genius, but chances are you’re going to bust. “.

    I’d rather stay on 19 and see if that’s good enough to get the team back to the WCF and NBA Finals.

    Comment by paydawg — June 20, 2008 @ 12:12 pm

  36. I think we have been talking about bulk and defense - as well as heart. I don’t think our team lacks heart, just experience (we I guess I cannot say that anymore). Next year will tell all about the heart. I have confidence Drew will be the bulk we need and he, Kobe, Sasha, and Ariza provide the defense. Turiaf could be better defensively if he would just slow down a bit and not swing through blocks quite so much. I also expect Farmar to improve defensively in this, his 2nd, summer of development.

    I like the thought of Steven Jackson, but just cannot get all that excited about trade talk this year.

    Comment by Craig W. — June 20, 2008 @ 12:13 pm

  37. Correct me if I’m wrong for Sasha and Ronny, but the Lakers own their Bird rights…meaning they don’t have to use any of the MLE to sign them, right? They can go over the cap to sign their own free agents and still use the MLE to get a good, hardworking, defensive minded veteran who knows how to win (Posey is pretty much perfect…except he’s another dude that plays the three). I’m a lot more confident in this team after watching the majority of the exit interviews on Lakers.com, it seems like the blowout and the Finals in general were a good learning experience for them. I think bringing back this roster mostly in-tact plus another tough veteran or two would have them in good shape for next year.

    Comment by Lakersfan88 — June 20, 2008 @ 12:15 pm

  38. SSo far all of these possible trade proposals involving LO fail to take into consideration two very important facts:

    1) they all involve moving a player whose best fit is at PF for a player that would be the fourth SF on our roster; and to that end
    2) We are loaded at the SF and a trade such as above would leave us very thin at the inside spots with only Bynum Gasol and Mihm under contract (even if we sign Turiaff are we really going to battle with that).

    Kurt has brought up the point, which I whole heartedly concur, that the reason Vlad starts is for his shooting/floor spacing. We need a starting 3 that can shoot and defend. I think though that Bynum’s presence would help Vlad defensively since, as opposed to Pau and LO, he is more of an interior presence.

    Also these are some line up conundrums as I see them:

    Not having seen how Bynum and Gasol will play together, we do know how other line ups involving LO, Pau, Ronny and Bynum have worked this year.

    LO and Pau - great interior passing and generally above average offense, average defensively.
    LO and Bynum - great interior defense, decent interior scoring, but average not the passing skills of Pau/LO

    I think Turiaff is to limited to work consistently with Pau and LO, with I believe his best work coming with Bynum, where he can clean up around Andrew. He is not a good primary big man so putting him out with Pau or LO only does not bode well for either interior O or D. His rebounding, as has been pointed out by many statisticians, is below average. He may be an energy guy and all-around great guy, but I think his game is limited. That said he doesn’t cost much.

    I don’t think we need much tinkering (and I don’t know what we can really do) but I believe Phil made a comment that we could use a tough guy and I tend to agree with that (no Ronny that’s not you, you smile too much). How exactly that manifests itself, I don’t know, but if you look at PJ’s past teams he had Rodman, Grant and Shaq. Don’t think we currently have anyone that fits into that enforcer/tough guy role.
    o far all of these possible trade proposals involving LO fail to take into consideration two very important facts:

    1) they all involve moving a player whose best fit is at PF for a player that would be the fourth SF on our roster; and to that end
    2) We are loaded at the SF and a trade such as above would leave us very thin at the inside spots with only Bynum Gasol and Mihm under contract (even if we sign Turiaff are we really going to battle with that).

    Kurt has brought up the point, which I whole heartedly concur, that the reason Vlad starts is for his shooting/floor spacing. We need a starting 3 that can shoot and defend. I think though that Bynums presence would help Vlad defensively since, as opposed to Pau and LO, he is more of an intereior presence.

    Also these are some line up conundrums as I see them:

    Not having seen how Bynum and Gasol will play together, we do know how other line ups involving LO, Pau, Ronny and Bynum have worked this year.

    LO and Pau - great interior passing and generally above average offense, average defensively.
    LO and Bynum - great interior defense, decent interior scoring, but average not the passing skills of Pau/LO

    I think Turiaff is to limited to work consistently with Pau and LO, with I believe his best work coming with Bynum, where he can clean up around Andrew. he is not a good primary big man so putting out with Pau or LO only does not bode well for wither interior O or D. His rebounding, as has been pointed out by many statisticians is below average. He may be an energy guy and all-around great guy, but I think his game is limited. That said he doesn’t cost much.

    I donlt think we need much tinkering (and I don;t know what we can really do) but I believe phipl made a comment that we could use a tough guy and I tend to agree with that (no Ronny that’s not you, you smile too much). How exactly that manifests itself, I don’t know, but if you look at PJ’s past teams he had Rodman, Grant and Shaq. Don’t think we currently have anyone that fits into that enforcer/tough guy role.

    Comment by Bingo T. Klown — June 20, 2008 @ 12:15 pm

  39. 37. You are correct, the Lakers do not HAVE to use the MLE on Sasha and/or Turiaf. However, they CAN, which would save them money against the luxury tax if they are not going to get another free agent.

    Comment by Kurt — June 20, 2008 @ 12:18 pm

  40. sorry don’t know what happened there…editing please!

    Comment by Bingo T. Klown — June 20, 2008 @ 12:19 pm

  41. lamar for tayshaun prince, prince is a smart and disciplined player, a winner and defender. he can shoot the 3, perfect for the lakers
    plus dumars want to shake things up. trade for him!

    Comment by purpleshoes — June 20, 2008 @ 12:25 pm

  42. Craig W.: You’re probably right about Fish starting, I just like Farmar in that unit myself. Especially since Kurt mentioned PJ probably wanting to limit Fish’s minutes. He’d be a strong veteran force off the bench, coupled with LO in my lineup. Scary good production and leadership off the bench. Besides, Fish may be the 1, but Vujacic can run the point up-tempo and allow Fish to find his spots around the arc. Neither one of them can finish a layup, but whatever.

    Oh, in my last post I forget to mention Radmanovic sliding in at 3 off the bench when Odom goes to 4 and Turiaf at 5 (quicker lineup than Mihm at the 5, Turiaf at 4 and LO at 3). Luke can sit until someone gets hurt.

    Also, I hate Ron Artest. Not just for the Lakers, which I think would be the beginning of the end for this nice resurgence, but I hate him in general. He seems spoiled, selfish, rotten, and generally horrible for any team. Just a bad fit and a bad apple, in my opinion.

    Comment by The Fanalyst — June 20, 2008 @ 12:28 pm

  43. Teams that forgo fiscal responsibility to win this year wind up like Dallas - unable to do much once they wake up to the fiscal facts. I don’t think Jerry Buss is against going into luxury tax territory as much as he wants to make sure it is a short stay. Meaning he doesn’t have a 5yr window where he will be over the tax level, regardless of performance. This means some high dollar players should be coming off the payroll every other year or so. Lamar is coming off next year so trading for Richard Jefferson means adding 2 additional years to that window. If the club is going to do that (see the Gasol trade) they are going to be pretty sure the player will fit in long term. Kwame is an example of a gamble lost and the Lakers cannot afford to have more than one (or possibly 2) of those during any year. Is Richard Jefferson that much of a sure thing? Isn’t it too soon since the Gasol trade to expect another long term gamble?

    When discussing trades, I suggest bloggers think through this aspect of Laker team planning - the front office sure does.

    Comment by Craig W. — June 20, 2008 @ 12:28 pm

  44. I still believe. We’ll be back next year, don’t go too crazy with the trade and signing talk.

    I do think we should leave 1-2 roster spots open so that when veteran players become available i.e. PJ Brown, Ratliff, etc., we will have the flexibility to sign them. They will already see LA as an attractive destination due to championship aspirations, weather and women !

    Comment by Sal — June 20, 2008 @ 12:36 pm

  45. A commitment to playing excellent help defense ought to dispell any worries about Lamar’s lack of quickness on the perimeter; at the same time, his length ought to bother jumpshooters. The Lakers were guilty of stranding guys (like Lamar) on islands. Teamwork to the rescue.

    My greatest concern is the point guard situation. If the Lakers are going to be a better defensive ballclub, I believe we need to go big. The most cost effective way to create a bigger backcourt is to promote Vujacic to the starting lineup. Lamar can share the responsibility of bringing the ball up the court, and Coby Karl can take Vujacic’s spot in the rotation.

    I think Farmar is brilliant and will only get better; but with so many teams(Cleveland, Indiana, Clippers, Heat, Seattle come to mind) angling for an upgrade at point guard, I think he may the most valuable, expendable Laker. So, another option is to acquire a big guard in exchange for Farmar.

    Radmanovic seems untradeable, but so did Larry Hughes; the strategy here is to find another misfit on another team with roughly the same salary and years remaining. Nocioni would seem to be a great acquistion, in keeping with the defensive-oriented direction PJ would like to emphasize, but he’s more valuable than Radmanovic.

    Comment by chibi — June 20, 2008 @ 12:40 pm

  46. Garbajosa —

    http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jnqDEsOZEk3xPEnYF19fc11UCLGA

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3450854

    http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/garbopresser_061808.html

    Wouldn’t this condition make him a free agent?

    Comment by George — June 20, 2008 @ 12:40 pm

  47. Everyone needs to remember that Fish will not come off the bench. He whined about it to the press in Oakland, and will do it again if Phil goes with Jordan. Won’t happen.

    Comment by Rob — June 20, 2008 @ 12:45 pm

  48. I also like the LO for Richard Jefferson deal. Jefferson is a borderline all-star who can contribute effectively on a good team as we have seen in the Nets playoff runs. He is a slasher as well as a good 3-pt shooter. His rebounding seems to be quite good, I am not sure about his passing ability not having watched many Nets games. I think he will be a good fit for the triangle.

    I am sure Nets are looking to get rid of him to clear cap space and the SF position to make a run at Lebron next year. LO is perfect for them because he gives them a big expiring contract and also does not make it seem like they are completely intent on tanking the 2008-09 season.

    This trade goes through on the ESPN trade machine. The other good thing is that his contract expires in 2 years, just 1 more year than LO.

    Downside is he will have to change his jersey No. 24 if he comes to LA. :)

    Comment by pw — June 20, 2008 @ 12:49 pm

  49. #46, that’s stunning. I’d always believed Fish was a team-centric guy.

    Comment by chibi — June 20, 2008 @ 12:52 pm

  50. I really wouldn’t expect the Lakers to bring Odom off the bench, he gets paid to much money. I’m with Kurt about seeing how the frontline meshs next year.

    I do think the Lakers need some bench help, specifically someone that can play in the post and compliment Turiaf at the 4. Who that may be, I don’t know. I love Turiaf and Sasha, but they’re both expendable. I guess bringing Vladi off the bench is better than starting, but still, if there was someone out there that wanted him, by all means dump him. I think that would actually help the Lakers by just getting rid of him. That way Phil isn’t tempted to play him.

    Where can the Lakers get lucky enough to find someone they want, so they retire, and then the Lakers can sign him?

    Comment by Zach — June 20, 2008 @ 12:56 pm

  51. I made a big mistake in post # 47. Lebron comes off contract in 2010, so Nets could just let Jefferson’s contract expire and not re-sign him.

    Comment by pw — June 20, 2008 @ 12:59 pm

  52. #47

    I was surprised as well…

    Did some googling…

    ” In contrast, the Golden State Warriors offered Fisher $37 million over six years and guaranteed him a role as the team’s starting point guard.”

    “Fisher had stated that his primary reason for joining the Warriors was the chance to run his own team as its starting point guard.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Fisher

    I’ve always thought that Derek Fisher got away with a lot of things on the court…

    Comment by anoni — June 20, 2008 @ 1:05 pm

  53. Didn’t Fisher come off the bench in Utah? Can’t remember if he did or not.

    I think Fisher will start though, Jordan will just get more minutes through the season, keep Derek fresh.

    Comment by George — June 20, 2008 @ 1:06 pm

  54. 46. George, I had not seen that. So, he’s a free agent. However, as you said, I’d want to see how he plays and have a very detailed medical exam before anything. He is on the wrong side of 30 to be healing quickly, and leg and ankle things can take longer to heal than most. He can shoot the three fairly well (34% two years ago) but his offensive numbers have really never been that great. Frankly, I don’t know that much about his game and how it would blend. I can see watching him.

    Comment by Kurt — June 20, 2008 @ 1:07 pm

  55. Zach,
    Money actually has very little to do with starting (except among fans), just front office mistakes (Pat Riley). The biggest problem is that high salaried players think they are starters and create chemistry and intensity problems when they are playing 2nd unit.

    pw,
    Lebron’s contract ending in 2010 is another reason for the Nets to keep Jefferson until then. They could always trade him the year before if Lebron’s arrival becomes less likely. Meanwhile he does provide scoring for them.

    Comment by Craig W. — June 20, 2008 @ 1:11 pm

  56. 43 - Craig nailed it, right on the head. As I scrolled through the prior comments, the one key point I felt was missing from most was the money aspect. Buss is arguably the best owner anyone in this generation will ever encounter, but part of what makes him a success is that he doesn’t try to just throw money at a problem at the expense of the Lakers’ long-term future.

    Anyone think Phoenix is happy to be owe Shaq another $40 million for the next two seasons? Or does anyone doubt that Miami is thrilled that it’s off the Shaq hope (with a ring in tow, no less)? Were it not for Buss thinking long-term, that could be an albatross on the Lakers’ books, back when Shaq was crying for an extension in fall 2003.

    I think resigned Sasha is critical, and I’d like to bring Ronny back, too. Neither should break the bank, and they’re valuable pieces.

    Ideally, I wish the Lakers weren’t paying so much for Radmanovich and/or Luke (though I’d prefer to keep Luke if one could be shipped out). Reality says they’ll both be back, unless we can find a Kerr-like moron who’ll take on salary and little else a la Shaq.

    Which brings us back to the front court. Bynum’s going to get paid. Young, talented bigs always do. Pau is already being paid, as is Odom.

    Set aside whatever (legit) questions exist about how those three will fit together on the court — and I admit, I question if LO can play the three and the idea of him coming off the bench is intriguing — but the bottom line is can Buss afford to pay all of those guys big money, especially given the payroll that’s already committed?

    $10 million to $12 million a year for 10 to 15 points a game is a lot, and given the expected firepower, that just may be what those three average (a piece) next year. If Ariza develops a jumper, or there’s some other less-expensive piece out there to plug in, I think Mitch has to consider shedding some of that salary, and Odom is the most-likely candidate to find a new home.

    And Kurt’s right — Artest would be a huge mistake. It reminds me of the Rodman experiment in ‘99. Wrong fit, wrong attitude — he doesn’t belong in purple and gold, nor does he deserve to play in those colors.

    My two cents, anyway…

    Comment by Chris J — June 20, 2008 @ 1:15 pm

  57. 55. Craig, yeah I realized that later. I am at work, so I failed to do enough research before I posted.

    Comment by pw — June 20, 2008 @ 1:17 pm

  58. Regarding concerns about the front line, and Pau’s weaker shooting touch from the distance, it would make sense to keep the paint less stacked , so that Bynum and Pau can work their offense closest to the paint. This means that, the SF we are going to have needs to definitely have a shooting range that will force the opponent defender to respect and stay away from the paint (in the Boston series, pretty much always three defenders stayed in the paint, because of Odom’s lack of shooting). Is there a possibility any of the following happens?

    1. Swing a deal with Miami for Marion giving away Odom? Marion is a better defender at the SF, nice rebounder, runs the transition offense, and also has a goog shooting range. But will he agree to play the secondary role at LA?

    2. If Brand does opt of his contract, and Clippers stand to lose him for nothing, swing a sign-and-trade involving Brand/Gasol? Is Brand a better PF to play with Bynum? Will Clippers/Lakers see purpose in such a trade?

    Comment by John — June 20, 2008 @ 1:17 pm

  59. 56) chris j,
    “but the bottom line is can Buss afford to pay all of those guys big money, especially given the payroll that’s already committed?”

    That’s not an issue next season, since Bynum is still under contract.

    Comment by exhelodrvr — June 20, 2008 @ 1:20 pm

  60. Yeah, his performance in the Olympics will really be the determinant factor. Spain claims he is healthy, and ready to go, but we’ll see soon. Garbajosa is on the wrong side of 30, but if everything is laid out up front, he is the type of guy who does a lot of the little things, a team player who just makes plays, whatever the need be.

    Even though he hasn’t been in the NBA that long, he seemed to provide the type of stability in Toronto that is common amongst veterans. While you could probably argue his skills are covered on our roster, I don’t see much wrong with adding a savvy and passionate player who isn’t afraid to leave it all on the court. Whether it is December or June.

    I feel the Lakers really don’t need to do much. Get a training camp with what we got right now, see how they bounce back. But Jorge could be a nice minor move that wouldn’t gum up the works.

    Comment by George — June 20, 2008 @ 1:21 pm

  61. What we really need Is a concerted effort to Improve defensively. We can speculate about trades, but defense Is what need to be addressed. The reason the squad lost In 6 was because of some of the worst defensive play that I’ve seen in a long time. The lakers have no problem scoring as was evident In all 3 games at home(and if they only played some d for more than one period we might be celebrating Instead of Boston) but when the C’s defense tightened up, and they got going offensively ,the lakers had no answer because they could’nt get any stops I’m sure having Drew back for a whole season will help, but having him back won’t matterIf he stay’s in foul trouble because guys on the perimeter ,let players just blow by them like there nailed to the floor. So next year there must be a commitment to defense. There is no reason why the lakers can’t be a great defensive team lkike the Spurs cavs, or celtics. Offense Is nice but defense Is what wins championships look at the teams that have won the title since the lakers In 2002. Detroit, the Spurs, the Heat ,and the Celtics What Is the common denominater amongst these squads? GREAT DEFENSE and the commitment to playing it for 48 min. We are gonna have to get to that level if we want to celebrate next June. Phil’s Chicago teams ,were known for there defense, and even the Kobe /Shaq teams could get stops In crucial situations but this squad seems to have no clue on how to even stay between there man and the basket( how many times was Ray Allen open In game 6) they must commit to defense ,and a defensive philosophy period.

    Comment by Lewis — June 20, 2008 @ 1:39 pm

  62. Kurt - Excellent overview/summary of the team situation.

    I think I mentioned this in another thread, but the one thing that another team might be able to offer one of our RFAs that we can’t is playing time. (Yes, the Lakers can match any offer, but this is the NBA, and a player can always play the “I don’t wanna be here” card to force the issue.) And we probably shouldn’t overlook the idea that someone might overpay a player just to get him away from the Lakers.

    I think Ariza is a little more of a flight risk than you described, because I think somebody might be willing to pencil him in as a starter, knowing he’ll have to grow into the role. If I were the Lakers, though, I’d be quietly pointing out to him that he’s in a great position to takeover the 3 spot the season after next, when the Lakers are unlikely to be able to resign LO in any case.

    FWIW, I’m strongly in the “do as little as possible and give Jackson a chance to work with this team” camp, especially given that we seem to have pretty good team chemistry.

    Comment by alex v. — June 20, 2008 @ 1:45 pm

  63. 61) Lewis,
    “Phil’s Chicago teams ,were known for there defense, and even the Kobe /Shaq teams could get stops In crucial situations but this squad seems to have no clue on how to even stay between there man and the basket( how many times was Ray Allen open In game 6) they must commit to defense ,and a defensive philosophy period.”

    That is primarily an issue of the personnel on the rosters.

    Comment by exhelodrvr — June 20, 2008 @ 1:46 pm

  64. i love that tight pistons family, but since it seems like management is gonna break them up anyway, we should try to get that former laker and old man of the sea, lindsey hunter. anyone from that team would play and work extremely hard, but lindsey is particularly so. even though, he’ll be like 38, he’s what you would call a basketball connoisseur. he was playing some smart, inspired basketball down the stretch in the playoffs this year. maybe we can get him for a couple pretty pennies.

    what about james jones (if not james posey), and kurt thomas? how’s jones as a defender? i know he’s played at the 2 and 3 over the past couple years with the suns and blazers. he is a great shooter. although it’s possible, i don’t see their teams very high on letting them go.

    Comment by the other Stephen — June 20, 2008 @ 1:53 pm

  65. I thought Jefferson had 3 years left in his contract. So if NJ wanted to make a run at the 2010 FA list, they would have to trade him for some money since his contract is through 2011. According to the information I found (hoopshype) that is correct.

    Comment by ryan — June 20, 2008 @ 1:58 pm

  66. Regarding Odom, I think we keep him and resign him for 9mil or less in the following offseason. We need to dump Radman/Walton but that might be easier next summer when they have less years on their contracts.

    I believe a Euro needs to be picked in the second round and pray he develops.

    We also possibly have Sun Yue coming in this year, unfortunately I don’t see him strengthening our defense which is what we need to focus on.

    Overall I believe our roster is most likely set and will only use the MLE to sign people in the event of not be able to resign Turiaf/Vujacic

    Back to Odom, I believe it might have been mentioned already but Odom will get plenty of time at PF this year as well. So he will still be effective. I believe Bynum will average around 30-33 minutes a game this year leaving 15-18 Gasol playing center while odom can play the 4.

    Also foul trouble can be another source of minutes for Odom at 4.

    I honestly believe we won’t be making any moves this year and next summer we will be more active. We will have a better understand of our team and its needs plus how all the pieces fit together. Not to mention the easier contracts to move by then.

    Comment by Brian P. — June 20, 2008 @ 2:01 pm

  67. With all the speculation about who may be available via trade, I thought we could at least get some clarity about who will be available for sure via free agency. This is a little old (May of this year) but it is an accurate list of FA players after this season via ESPN.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=2008freeagents

    I think if we are going to discuss potential additions, we could start with who is really likely to be on the market looking for a new team.

    Comment by Darius — June 20, 2008 @ 2:02 pm

  68. Not much talk about trying to get Marion. If Miami doesn’t want to give him a new contract, perhaps a sign and trade will work. The Lakers would have to add another player, but Marion would give us what he need. Plus he is an excellent rebounder so we woulnd’t miss Odom much.

    On the Miami end, Odom’s expiring contract would come in nice for them. The 2nd pick in this years draft, a realtively young Wade and big cap relief for the 2009-2010 season might be appealing to the Heat.

    Comment by Andre — June 20, 2008 @ 2:06 pm

  69. I agree with a lot of posters on this thread and they’ve made the case so I’ll just say that if the Lakers can get Ron Artest (AND another decent player from the Kings) or Richard Jefferson straight up, they should do that. And I love Lamar. The Lakers need to go after James Posey, resign Sascha if he doesn’t command the moon. Try and off-load Walton (he STINKS). I also think bringing Kwame back wouldn’t be a bad move if you could get him cheap (and I do mean cheap).

    The Lakers need toughness. And the 3 spot has to be a guy that has an outside shot. Lamar’s outside shot is balls. I love Lamar, but he doesn’t fit this team nearly as well as someone else we should be able to get via trade.

    Comment by sharky — June 20, 2008 @ 2:06 pm

  70. Everyone talks about James Posey as simply some kind of “glue guy” that “does the little things” and all that stuff. They seem to find it so hard to wrap their head around the idea that he’s just a plain old excellent player. They talk about all his “intangibles”, when in truth, his value is very tangible.

    The Boston Celtics got a lot better this year by adding a lot of excellent players, and James Posey is very much one of them. To look at him as some kind of seasoning on the Celtics menu undersells his talent. He’s just a very good player, and I think it would very much benefit the Lakers to go after him, not for some abstract “mind-set” or “attitude” he can bring, but for the plain and perhaps boring fact that he’s just a very good *basketball player*.

    Comment by Costa — June 20, 2008 @ 2:08 pm

  71. How could you desire to unload Luke Walton under the premise that he “stinks,” but then a breath later call for the return of Kwame Brown?

    Comment by George — June 20, 2008 @ 2:11 pm

  72. Lots of interesting comments, might as well weigh in:

    I am anti Artest, he kills the offense with bad shots and I do not see him fitting in the triangle. I am also anti stephen jackson, because his defense slipped noticeable this year.

    I think we need a Battier type, but doubt we have enough to get him (considering they traded rudy gay for him!).

    A couple of possible names: Josh Childress - not sure about his numbers on threes and he might duplicate ariza a little, but that guy is long and extremely skilled - a high PER guy, probably underrated.

    I also thought some about Hedo, I think Orlando could use a true 4 with the skills of odom- the rebounding and passing of odom would be perfect next to Dwight and Rashard - however, Hedo was a top tier player this year, so I don’t know how they consider his value next to odoms - although the length of the deals might tip in our favor. hedo and Odom are very similar - good passers, stat fillers - odom is the better rebounder, hedo is the better shooter.

    Of course focusing on a three is dangerous

    Comment by beyondblue — June 20, 2008 @ 2:14 pm

  73. John,
    Marion would create longer term contract problems than Lamar, along with possible locker room problems.

    Brand would create paint problems with Bynum - at least more so than Gasol. Also, he would demand a longer term contract - problems noted in my post above. I think Gasol moving in and out of the paint, with an outstanding passing game is much better suited for the triangle. People have to constantly consider the system a team plays in before evaluating personnel.

    Comment by Craig W. — June 20, 2008 @ 2:20 pm

  74. After looking at that list of FA’s that I linked to in #67, a player that really intrigues me is Pietrus from the Warriors. He’s a UFA and has been clamoring to get out of GS for the past year.

    I know that we are already bursting at the seams with SF’s, but I always thought this kid could play. He’s a pretty strong defender and can hit the 3 pointer okay (he’s much better from the corners ala Bowen). He’s had some problems with shot selection, but he’s a pretty coachable player from what I’ve seen and always plays with energy. He’s also a super athlete.

    I know we would all like a veteran or two…guys who are battle tested, but I just wanted to throw Pietrus’ name out there to see what anyone thought.

    Comment by Darius — June 20, 2008 @ 2:23 pm

  75. alex v.,
    Trevor is not really much of a flight risk. He is really on the upside of his career and has the chance to play in his home town. I would be more concerned if he was 30, but if that were so we wouldn’t all be excited by his presence. His best opportunity is probably to sign with a finals contender for 3yrs to establish his bonafides and then sign his big contract.

    Comment by Craig W. — June 20, 2008 @ 2:30 pm

  76. I agree with purpleshoes.

    I keep reading about the different possibilities for LO (even though I don’t want him to leave - remember this guy had an injured shoulder and played through it to have a chance against pho), and the most intriguing one I’ve heard is LO for Tayshaun Prince.

    As a small forward I think he is at least average in all the qualities that Darius laid out for the prototypical sf in the Triangle.

    Furthermore, the biggest criticism the Lakers received all year has been their defense, especially inside. With Prince, you have improved perimeter AND paint defense (think Turkoglu). That would also provide a defender against Pierce, Melo, Josh Howard, LeBron, Durant, TMac, etc.

    I’m only mentioning this trade bc Dumars said that nobody’s safe on his roster. It’s very unlikely, but I think there’s a small possibility he may bite the appetizing last year of LO’s contract.

    And to think, we can maybe have Inglewood v. inglewood next year in The Finals!

    Comment by Mikee — June 20, 2008 @ 2:30 pm

  77. 73. I agree. I mentioned in the last thread that the two players that first come to mind when I think of a SF for the triangle are Prince, and Butler (though Iguodala would probably fit the mold as well). I don’t think Prince is available though, unless its a deal they can’t pass up and that is not Odom.

    Comment by ryan — June 20, 2008 @ 2:39 pm

  78. I’m still trying to figure out why everyone is hating on LO.

    Basketball is a game of matchups and sometimes a talented player might not match up well with their opponents. That’s exactly the case with LO and Boston. He’s still the same guy that abused Utah in the 2nd Round. Does that mean Utah should get rid of Boozer and Okur?

    The Lakers would’ve been the youngest team to win the championship…experience definitely plays a big part in going all the way. They have that now….maybe they can use it to get over the hump next year.

    Comment by paydawg — June 20, 2008 @ 2:39 pm

  79. paydawg,
    It is amazing what the final game of the season will do to otherwise reasonable adults - opps! I forgot - all us here are fans, not adults. Well, a 39pt loss will really test our ability to remember.

    Comment by Craig W. — June 20, 2008 @ 2:41 pm

  80. Not many teams reach the NBA Finals when they couldn’t get out of the 1st round the year before. It just doesn’t happen. Does anyone know the last team to do that?

    I’m not including Boston because they have several players that have gone deep in the playoffs in their career (KG, Allen, Pierce, Posey). The Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Mavs, Cavs and Shaq/Kobe Lakers all had to lose in the Conference Playoffs (2nd round or Conf. Finals) before they reached the NBA Finals. The fact that the Lakers did this shows they’re FAR ahead of schedule.

    Comment by paydawg — June 20, 2008 @ 2:50 pm

  81. @74 well said. I think the team just needs to work on team defense in camp.

    Comment by PJ — June 20, 2008 @ 3:07 pm

  82. Is Luol Deng available? I cannot remember his status, just that he turned down a big contract. I hate posturing about sign and trades though, and he will probably command more money.

    I gotta say though, I am very glad to be where we are now. We are debating moves that could get the Lakers a championship, not ones that make them playoff contenders.

    We are all focusing on the small forward spot, but we might have different needs if Ronny or Sasha end up leaving.

    Comment by beyondblue — June 20, 2008 @ 3:10 pm

  83. So the need is: Swingman whose athletic, a plus perimeter defender and can shoot well enough to force the opposing defense to honor him.

    If I may throw a name into the suggestion box as far as a trade possibility: the Raptors’ Anthony Parker.

    Positives:
    - Very athletic and capable of running the floor
    - Experience both starting and coming off the bench
    - Dead-eye shooter (.557 eFG%, 44% 3PT, 82% FT)
    - Kevin Pelton named him the best defender at his position as recently as the end of the 06-07 season

    Negatives:
    - No spring chicken at 32 years old
    - While he had his best shooting season, he’s coming off a subpar year as far as his defense is concerned.
    - He’s in the final year of his contract, which pays 4.35 million. I can’t come up with any sensible trade solutions the Lakers could work out as of yet<