Talking Trades

Darius Soriano —  February 15, 2010

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During the All-Star game coverage, Charles Barkley said something that I think bears repeating when he was talking about all of the trade rumors and (in the case of the Dallas/Washington swap) trades that have already happened.  Chuck said that all of these trades that contenders are making are for one reason – to beat the Lakers.  I mean, the Lakers are the defending champs and are the favorites to win the championship again this season.  The Lakers may not currently have the best record in the league, but I’d argue that they have the best roster, the best coach, and have a level of confidence combined with experience that put them in position to repeat this season.  Obviously, there is no guarantee that the Lakers win – there are other very strong contenders and if the Lakers are good enough to get out of a stacked Western Conference, they’d still end up facing either Cleveland (currently the team with the best record), Orlando (runner up in last years Finals), or Boston (’08 champion and a team with loads of experience and mental toughness).  Essentially, repeating this season will be a tough task even if no other trades are made and no team improves.  But, with the trade deadline looming, one mega-deal has already been made and there are countless other rumors flying around.  Let’s take a look at what’s already gone down, what is rumored to be going down, and even touch on what the Lakers may do as we approach this Thursday.

As we’ve all read, Dallas has improved their team by acquiring Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood, and Deshawn Stevenson.  As I mentioned yesterday, I think this trade definitely improves Dallas by giving them a more consistent player on the wing (Butler) and also giving them one of the best defensive big men in the league in Haywood.  To me, Haywood (as much as Butler) makes this trade a real upgrade for Dallas because the Mavs have consistently struggled with teams that have strong offensive post play with only Eric Dampier standing in the way of guys like Pau, Bynum, Duncan, Dwight Howard, Shaq, etc having big nights and compromising their team defensive schemes.  Haywood is a player that can guard most of these guys one on one and enabling Dallas’ wings to stay at home on their own men.  Haywood is also a better shot blocker and rebounder than Dampier and that will help Dallas contain explosive wing players as driving lanes will be better cut off and more shots will be contested and altered at the rim.

The only downside I see for Dallas with this trade is the disruption of roles for the players that have already been on their roster.  It’s already been announced that Jason Terry will move back to the bench with Butler sliding into starting lineup at SG.  Yes, this puts Terry back into a familiar role and one that he excelled in last season – winning the 6th man award as the leagues best bench player.  But, Terry had not been performing as well in that role this season and had been playing much better of late as a starter. Does Terry stay in his groove now that he’s back to being the sixth man?  And will Butler play as well as a SG as he has playing SF for the Wizzards?  The stats seem to say that Butler is a lesser player when he plays SG as referenced by his lower PER (14.2) and his higher PER Against (16.2) as a SG rather than his slightly better numbers as a SF (14.6 PER, 14.4 PER Against).  Will those numbers change with the Mavs?  And if those numbers don’t change, what does this mean for the Mavs when games are tight at the end and their coaches must decide on what their best line up should be down the stretch of these games?  Does Butler slide back to SF with Terry playing SG next to Kidd in the backcourt?  What does this mean for Shawn Marion?  Does he now sit at the end of games in favor of a Butler/Dirk/Haywood frontline?  Does Haywood sit so Dirk can play Center and Marion can play PF (where Shawn has a much better PER but also has trouble defending PF’s)?  As I’ve noted in the past, these aren’t huge problems for the Mavs and maybe everything will be worked out with the situation coming up roses.  But, chemistry concerns are real in this league and the most talent on the floor doesn’t always mean the highest level of play.  This is something the coaches for the Mavs will need to sort out by the time the playoffs start.

Speaking of chemistry, the Cavs are looking at disrupting theirs as they explore how they can potentially improve their roster.  Already owners of the best record in the league, one would question if the Cavs even need to make a deal.  Just one week ago, Danny Ferry was saying just that.  But as players that could help Cleveland have become available via trade, the Cavs are looking to get better and have been identifying targets to acquire.  The question is, what player do they want the most and which player will actually help the the most?  The most recent player of high interest to the Cavs is Amare Stoudemire.  Apparently, the Cavs are high on STAT and think that he could be a difference maker this season and also help in retaining Lebron when he’s a free agent next summer.  But, Antawn Jamison is also a player the Cavs have looked to acquire in the past week.  But, if both of those options fail, there’s always Troy Murphy.  Based off this group of players, it’s obvious that the Cavs think their biggest issue is an offensive minded PF that could both space the floor as a shooter, play P&R with Lebron, and also rebound at a level where their team defense is not compromised.  Based off an analysis of the numbers, Amare may be the best choice for the Cavs if any deal can be made. But, again, this conclusion does not take into account any chemistry issues and what a Lebron/Amare/Shaq frontcourt would actually play like when they shared the court.  All three of those players have a usage rate over 25 and all perform best when they create shots for themselves (though Amare is also very good working off the ball in the P&R and as catch and shoot player in the mid-range).  There’s also the question of defense.  Zephid made a salient point in the comments when the Amare to the Cavs story was gaining steam over all-star weekend:

Amare has a PER of 23.4 this season, with an opponent’s PER against of 20.2. According to 82games, the Suns score 1.4 points more when Stoudemire is off the floor, and they also give up 3.4 less points on defense. All in all, Amare has a net production of -4.8 (all per 100 possessions). The Suns all shoot about the same percentage (54.1% on versus 54.2% off) with and without Stoudemire, but allow their opponents to shoot 1.2% better when Stoudemire is in the game.

This is pretty important considering the Cavs are 2nd in offensive efficiency while 5th in defensive efficiency. Is adding Amare really going to make their offense that much more potent? And will it outweigh the points they give up due to Amare’s lack of D?

Right now, Anderson Varejao plays the bulk of the minutes at PF, averaging nearly 30 a game. Varejao is also 3rd in +/- this season, so if Stoudemire cuts Varejao’s minutes from 30 to 15, that takes away a huge element of the Cavs game.

And what about the Lakers?  As I said earlier, almost any trade that a contender makes has a matchup with the Lakers in mind.  But the Lakers are not without their own issues that they may think need upgrading when making their final push towards the playoffs.  Despite the strong showings in recent games, the Lakers do have a weakness at point guard and that is a position that if not addressed this season, will need to be looked at this off-season with both Fisher and Farmar being free agents (Fisher is a UFA and Farmar is a RFA) when this year concludes.  The persistent rumor is that the Lakers are after Kirk Hinrich of the Bulls.  Is Kirk really a good fit?  I have my doubts.  His shooting is down across the board this season and his PER is not much better than Fisher’s and is lower than Farmar’s.  Yes, his defense would be a big upgrade over any of our current PG’s but his contract would be a tough one to swallow just for a defensive stopper.  And, that contract is the real issue.  The Lakers already have the highest payroll in the NBA, and taking on more salary is not the most fiscally prudent plan for a team that already has a fantastic core of (well paid) players.  This would mean any trade that the Lakers make to improve at PG would have to jettison either Sasha and/or Luke and that will not be easy.  I mean, every trade rumor involving the Lakers has Sasha as a player the Lakers give up and in those same stories you hear “sources” saying that Sasha’s contract is one that teams don’t want to swallow.

In the end, I’m not sure what is going to happen with Cleveland or the Lakers as far as trades go.  These are the two best teams in the league and both could win the title just by standing pat.  Just because Dallas made a deal, does that mean that the Lakers or the Cavs have to?  I would think that we’d see a trade from the Spurs or the Celtics or the Hawks before we saw the Lakers make a trade.  Again, the Lakers are the hunted here.  Our team is the current champion – that not only serves as motivation for other teams to try and catch us, but it also serves as disincentive for other teams to help us improve.  And, as Kurt always said, understand that this is the time of year where rumors are put out there for reasons beyond just player acquisition.  There is always a motive from an agent, an opposing GM, or it’s just plain media speculation to create a story in the silly season.  Will a deal happen for any contender?  We’ll know by Thursday, but we might as well discuss what’s out there as we countdown.

Darius Soriano

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to Talking Trades

  1. Your hyperlink about Terry should read something like “he’s played much better not coming off the bench/starting”

    Your sentence about Butler also compares his production from SG versus at guard, when one of those should read forward or SF

    Nice write up though

    I’ll later post some link about Portland mulling a three way where we’d get Hinrich, us sending Sasha to Portland? and a 1st to Chicago, and Portland also getting Tyrus Thomas


  2. Feel free to use this thread as a space for speculation. As I stated in the post, I have no clue if the Lakers will actually make a deal and their are real obstacles for the Lakers to actually make a trade (namely payroll concerns). But, that doesn’t mean a deal can’t/won’t happen. It just makes it less likely, in my opinion.


  3. From previous thread:

    Chad Ford of ESPN reporting a potential Three-way trade possibility: Hinrich to LAL; Outlaw/Blake/Juwan Howard/Morrison to CHI; Ty Thomas/Vujacic to POR


  4. In terms of the Lakers, I can’t see anyone taking on Sasha, and probably not Luke either. So, not a lot of realistic options out there, I would guess. No way I see Portland taking Sasha off of our hands. Doesn’t make sense.

    Health and chemistry are the issues for us.


  5. Well, the potential three teamer between LA/POR/CHI is mentioned here by Woj, and mentions the Sasha snafu aspect:

    Two things I’d consider though:

    -Anyone looking to redeem their career should want to play under Phil Jackson

    -Buss and Cuban are pretty close amongst the owners, and I think the one thing that could cajole him is this spending spree by Cuban. And Cuban hasn’t even flipped Dampier yet.


  6. I would be all for sasha+morrison for Hinrich. the actual salary hit is Hinrich’s additional 3.5M (9M-5.5M) next year, and 8M year after.


  7. In order for Portland to get Ty Thomas, I don’t see it being an issue for them to take on Sasha.


  8. Palani
    + lux tax


  9. If lakers go ahead with this trade proposal, doesn’t that mean they’re addressing their issues at pg for the foreseeable future? they may take extra salary, but at least they got rid of Sasha’s contract. Not such a bad move right?


  10. Far be it for me to doubt Kupchak and Buss, but if they can get Pritchard to take on Vujacic and his awful contract, that would have to rank high up on their list of successes.


  11. that trade would be a massive win for us but still can fathom portland taking sasha of our hands


  12. #1. Those two things are now fixed. Thanks.


  13. I will never, ever, ever, question anything Mitch does ever again if he manages to get someone to take a large steaming pile of Luke and Sasha.


  14. Cant see Portland taking on Sashas contract. Even if it nets them Thomas (who has never really showed me much other than being a freak athlete). The only trade that includes Sasha that I have seen that even remotely makes sense would be Farmar, Sasha and Morrison to Chicago for Heinrich and James Johnson which saves the bulls almost 5M next season and gives them just enough cap space to go after Wade, Bosh or James. But I am sure they can get a much better deal than that.

    I like the trade for Dallas particularly Haywood. I think he helps them a lot and Terry can always play PG.

    I don’t like Amare to the Cavs. It makes sense on some levels but I have never been a big fan of Amare. Way too one dimensional. I think Troy Murphy makes much more sense. He gives them a 4 that can stretch the floor and is a better defender than Amare (hell I am probably a better defender than Amare and I’m only 6 ft tall).


  15. The Hinrich deal would have been great at the beginning of the season. With only 30 games left in the season, Im wondering if he could grasp such a difficult offense at this point of the season and be effective. You dont have much practice time between regular season games for him to learn at such a rapid pace. I agree that LA needs to address the point situation, but this far along in the season it’s probably best to just cut Fish minutes and let Farmar get more time with the starters.


  16. this huge amount of predictions by “experts” favoring the Lakers to win the title is making me a bit weary.

    I’m a Lakers homer as much as anyone, but I just can’t see anyone beating CLE- not even the Lakers. If they get Amare, then it will only make this more so.

    The Lakers just can’t handle scrappy teams. JJ Hickson murdered them.

    This isn’t the same as calling our players soft- I don’t think they are soft at all. But scrappiness is a style of play like any other and the Lakers just can’t play it.


  17. Maybe the Lakers would include cash in the deal (Sasha), as far as Buss is concerned as long as the total payroll bill at the end of the year is less for him to dole out than now, that is a win for him, remember Mihm. If Buss throws in like 5m, he saves 5m in lux tax right?, does Portland have a trade exception? I thought we all agreed that Hinrich was not an upgrade from what we currently have at the guard positions.


  18. The better news on Kurt’s new site is that Kobe & Drew both trained with the team & should be back for next game.

    Now if only we can keep running the offense properly…


  19. The question isn’t who wants Sasha; the question is how badly does Portland want Ty Thomas?

    Besides, Sasha has been playing within himself for the last few weeks. He is not a disaster – his contract is. But not as much as Heinrich


  20. Well I guess that means any deal with Walton involved is now dead. As much as I would love to see a trade for Kirk H, someone above made the good point that it’s pretty late in the season for someone to learn the triangle. The following things need to happen;
    *Farmar needs to start AND stay within the offense
    *Fish needs to play the Big Shot Rob role. Limited minutes and timely big time shots (which he has over the years)
    *Shannon Brown needs to real in his shot selection
    *Sasha needs to go back to 2007 Sasha.

    If those things happen, the urgency for PG (although not eliminated) will be greatly reduced. Problem being, those four items are a tall order. We all know that PJ loves his vets and would never bench Fish; Farmar has a hard time staying within the offense; I really think that the coaching staff should be able to reign in Shannon’s 3 point shooting but we’ll see; and lastly, I have a glimmer of hope for Sasha but again I am not holding my breath. If you sit back and think about it, it’s amazing how much a trip back to the Finals just might depend on Farmar, Shannon and Sasha. And I must admit, that makes me scared.

    Go Lakers!


  21. Sources say that Amare Stoudemire has no interest in playing for the Cavaliers, and that the Cavs have started looking at other options.
    Antawn Jamison is one of those other options, and while this doesn’t mean that Amare is definitely not going to Cleveland, it no longer seems nearly as likely to happen. Feb. 15 – 6:43 pm etSource: The News-Herald

    so far so good


  22. Sasah + used washing machine for Mannix.


  23. why would amare possibly NOT want to play for the cavs? ring = $. i know the weather’s better in miami, but….


  24. Remember, Amare has already had to adjust to play with Shaq and he may not want to repeat the process – with a dominating Lebron built into the situation.


  25. The Lakers have worked hard to create and maintain chemistry. Trading Sasha and Morrison would not harm that chemistry, and Hinrich might fit in well.

    Given the Lakers potential uncertainty at PG next year, Hinrich may be a safety blanket.

    I’ve got mixed feelings, but I’d go for it if it were possible.


  26. If Hinrich is too much, here’s an alternative. Dooling and CDR for Morrison, referenced on hoopsworld power rankings……

    It’s just a theoretical, but works within the Lakers framework of not spending too much. Dooling isn’t much by way of offense, but is better defensively than pretty much anything we can throw out there. CDR can provide a spark off the bench especially with Luke out. Before i’m told its unfeasible, the nets really have one untouchable and that’s Lopez.


  27. Also…….sorry bout the double post, but conflicting reports on Amare. Apparently he’s let the Cavs know that he doesn’t want to play in Cleveland.


  28. I for one would love to see Hinrich in purple and gold. A 5 of Hinrich, Kobe, Artest, Lamar + Pau would be a beast defensively.


  29. Hinrich seems to play good D, but it always seemed to me that the Lakers’ poor D against guards has more to do with how they choose to defend the pick and roll. In his days on the Shaq-era Lakers Fisher always seemed awful on D (prob because shaq never stepped out). But then he went to Utah and looked like a tough, solid defender. That makes me wonder how much of the defensive issue relates to personnel versus scheme. How much better would the Lakers’ perimeter D actually be if they did add Hinrich? I suppose it would be better but I just wonder if it’s not as much as we might think at first. Also, although it must be discounted because I believe it was his rookie year and there wasn’t much talent around him, I remember Hinrich looking awful in the triangle. Like a slower Jordan Farmar.


  30. Drrayeye,

    That’s an expensive security blanket.

    While we need help at point, I’d rather get someone who shoots better than 38%…

    Plus, what would happen to the comment section when we can’t angle for sasha to get more playing time?

    I appreciate that the weakest link is the Point Guard situation, but that can be addressed by running the offense as consistently as possible.


  31. Ray – I think people are more worried about the defense at PG than the offense. I mean, PGs who shoot in the 30%-40% are already on our roster!

    But yeah, I am torn about this possibility. Hinrich would be a nice upgrade, but the cost seems exorbitant.


  32. If Amare doesn’t play in Cle no way Cle should get him – that guy is a scrub when unmotivated


  33. LeBron James said, “Growing up, you [basketball players] can’t even count to 100,000.”

    That explains the SAT scores.

    I’m personally not as high on Hinrich. OK, a perimeter defense of Hinrich, Kobe, and Artest is awe-inspiring. IMO Hinrich does a better job on Wade than anyone else in the league, and he did a great job against a much bigger Pierce last year. My question – is his defense against quick PGs as elite?

    But I still think his shooting is atrocious. And it has been for a while, this is no small slump. He’s very similar to Sasha in terms of shooting. That’s a big contract to take on with so many offensive questions.


  34. @PhilAus,

    Eh, I’m not that big on him defensively. At least, I don’t feel he is that much of an upgrade over Farmar or Fisher. Granted, I don’t see him play much, but I don’t hear awe inspiring things about him either.

    In all honesty, I’d love to get a defensive minded big guy. I’d love Marcus Camby to just switch locker rooms, and if Mike Dunleavy is still running the show, maybe he’ll take sasha and Ammo?

    BTW, I don’t have sources, just NBA2k10 and my Laker team with Camby is pretty strong defensively. =)


  35. Here’s where Buss miscalculated, in my opinion. Suppose – had we kept our draft pick this year – Mitch found a gem. Let’s pretend he had drafted Dejuan Blair. Or Budinger. Someone with potential.

    That move could have ended up saving Buss money. Why can’t we trade Sasha or Luke? Because no one takes bad contracts unless they get an asset in return. We have no assets outside of our core. A rookie, no matter how impressive, wouldn’t have been vital to our success. But, if we had a promising rookie, I’d say it’d be a lot easier for another team to take on Sasha or Luke. It may have also opened the door to bringing in a better PG without worrying so much about money.

    I didn’t check the rules on this, so I’m not sure if rookies can be traded in conjunction with other players. Theoretically, though, I don’t see why it couldn’t work.


  36. Instead of finding someone to stop quick point guards, which isn’t going to happen because nobody stops quick point guards in this league, how about we find a viable shooter?


  37. 36….i’m sure the Lakers could get a shooter like Rasual Butler from the Clips, but it would mean having to take on the extra year of Sebastian Telfair’s contract as well. Roger Mason Jr. wants a bigger role as well, but I doubt the Spurs would trade with us especially when we have little of anything of value.


  38. RE Hinrich:

    what we ask him to do is defense and 3 pointers. we all agree that he is a pretty good defender.

    About the shoot%, even though this season his FG% is 38%, his 3FG% is still decent 35.2%. his career 3FG% is 37.8%.


  39. In my mind, we don’t need trades, we’ve got all the pieces…

    If we were able to somehow turn back time on some of the players.

    Sasha, Fisher and Luke were all viable 3 pt shooters not so long ago, and if they could get back to that level, or at least near it, we wouldn’t have any problem with them at all.


  40. well than harold u havent been watching ALL of the games this season. The lakers looked helpless against both meetings with denver and cleveland (remember what mo williams did on christmas). I think this is a great trade but the luke thing really brings a concern. With him out phil usually brought in AMMO and what does that say about our bench now. I think if we trade for hinrich we should look to get back j. james to help the bench. Somehow i feel nervous about going into the playoffs with fish having to guard..well we know who…aside from powell and ammo fish has the lowest PER on the team, hes a defensive liability and shoots horridly. Hinrich is expensive and doesnt have a great fg% but sometimes a change of scenery helps and playing alongside kobe and pau, the guy would get a lot of open shots. I just hope boston doesn’t take him, thatd be stupid. Theyd pay all that for a guy who wont help in the championship aspirations; cleveland is pretty much a lock in the east especially if they get amare. Give it up men in green, might as well look toward saving some cash…


  41. The timing of the Luke news is better than it would be after the deadline. Now if Mitch wants to find a wing player cheap, he might be able to get something.

    If no deal is done, the Luke news will likely mean more of Sasha. I expect to see more of Kobe at the 3 and more PT for Sasha as well.


  42. etreyy,

    so u want us to get Hinrich, but not Boston, because Hinrich doesn’t add to championship aspirations? So why should we get him?


  43. RE Hinrich’s defense: Hinrich holds opposing PG’s to a PER of 8.3. Fisher opposing PER is 17.7 and Farmar’s is 16.6. Three of the Bull’s top 5 defensive units feature Hinrich at either SG or PG. Hinrich is a much better defensive player than any PG we have on our roster.

    Also understand that one of Phil’s trademark defensive moves in the playoffs is to put one of our bigger defensive wings on the opposing PG. Last season, Ariza saw minutes on Billups and Deron and Brooks and Kobe saw significant minutes on Billups. Two years ago and in our first meeting against Boston, Kobe has guarded Rondo exclusively. If this trend continues and Phil uses Kobe in this same manner (against Billups or Deron or if both teams get to the Finals, against Williams or Rondo) Hinrich is a defender that can guard most opposing SG’s and is a player that can chase players off screens (like Ray Allen for example) and do quite well. Also understand that last season Denver started Dhantay Jones and Fisher guarded him a lot. But this season, the Nuggs start Aaflalo who is much bigger than Jones and is a better offensive player than Jones. Fisher does not match up well against Aaflalo. But Hinrich could which would allow Kobe to guard Billups. Hinrich could also guard Smith better than any Laker (even Kobe, I think).

    I’m not arguing this to say that we should go get Hinrich at all costs, but he is an upgrade – especially on defense.


  44. This would be an absolute disaster of a trade if the Bulls somehow unloaded the piling sh*t that is Hinrich. The guy is HORRIBLE! He is one of the most inefficient players in the ENTIRE NBA! Seriously. His PER is about where Fisher’s PER is, and we all say that Fisher has the intangibles. Does Hinrich?

    A horrible, horrible trade for the Lakers. I’d really rather have Sasha playing than Hinrich.


  45. thanks darius, that helped.


  46. As Pat Riley once said, “defense & rebounds is what gets u the rings.” 4 all the talk ’bout Hinrich not being a great shooter, which one of our current PG’s are? And guaranteed, that if this trade was 2 take place, Hinrichs’ shooting percentage would def improve because of all the open looks that he would receive due 2 Kobe, Pau & Drew attracting double teams.

    The gift that Hinrich would give us is defense, toughness & size @ that PG position. Can he keep up with quicker pg’s? Probably not, but if u look @ our main competitors out west (Denver & now Dallas, since the trade) , he matches up perfectly well with Billups & Kidd. It’s also a proven fact that he can guard 2’s (Wade) and some 3’s (P. Square) as mentioned in an earlier post.

    With all that being said, it’s imperative that we keep Farmar around 2 deal with the speedier PG’s that we might run into along the way (Parker, Westbrook, Brooks ….) or further down the line (Mo Williams, Rondo or Nelson). But all n all, I believe that picking up Hinrich would b an upgrade.


  47. #39,

    Hinrich’s shooting is “good” at 35%? Well, Sasha, Farmar, Brown, Fisher all shoot at least 35% from the 3pt line anyway. And those 4 actually shoot BETTER than Hinrich from the field.

    Hinrich is a dud. His PER is at 10. Fisher is around that level. A PER of 15 is average mathematically speaking.

    It would be absolutely insane to take on Hinrich, one of, if not the most, inefficient players in the entire NBA.

    Cavs are going to pick up Amare/Jamison/Murphy or otherwise known as all-star level talent, and we are going to pay big money for a scrub who doesn’t even start for a non-playoff team? A guy who is not all-star level talent, not average nba level talent, but one of the worst PERs in the league of players that actually play. It is ridiculous. And there is no way Mitch is that stupid.

    Hinrich is a horrible player. I wouldn’t take him for free.


  48. Kaveh,

    How bout you tell us what you would do.


  49. 44 –

    Darius, I’m curious what your thoughts are regarding the context in which Hinrich’s opposing PER takes place. I don’t doubt that he’s a better defender than anyone on the Lakers. But I’m curious as to whether we would see the same type of efficiency if he was playing within the Lakers’ defensive schemes. Maybe since I watch so much of the Lakers I tend to see more of their flaws, but I always get the sense that other teams’ bigs do a better job helping and recovering on the pick and roll. Whereas I feel like the Lakers tend to leave the defending guard somewhat exposed. I’ve never been sure if I’m just imagining it, if it’s part of the Lakers’ strategy, or something else entirely. I trust your analysis so any thoughts you have would be appreciated.


  50. For my under-the-radar speculative pick-up, i like Kyle Weaver from OKC. With Eric Maynor in the fold, Weaver isn’t getting a lot of PT. He’s a solid, inexpensive defender.


  51. Hinrich vs Fisher vs Farmar

    TS%: 47.4%, 50.2%, 53.9%

    Hinrich’s pure efficiency number on offense, his TS% is an abysmal 47.4%. To put this in perspective, it measure how much you score per possession when taking into consideration 3pt shots and free throws. Thus, your ts% is a pure efficiency number. Hinrich’s is 47.4%! That is an atrocious number. Compare it to Fisher, who we all think sucks, except he has the “intangibles” of being a clutch performer. Yet in the regular season this year, he has a TS% of 50.2%. A nice improvement over Hinrich. Compare this to Farmar who blasts both out of the water at almost 54% TS%. So if you don’t think Farmar does it, and Fisher sucks, then where the hell is hinrich?

    What about eFG% which makes up for the higher efficiency in 3pt shots?

    efg%: 44.5%, 45.4%, 51.9%

    Farmar has an almost 52% eFG%, which compares very favorably to Hinrich’s, which is in the very depths of hell at 44.5%!! I mean, this guy is supposed to be a 3pt threat. 3pt shots are supposed to increase your efg%. Look at JJ Redick from the Magic. A good and efficient 3pt shooter. His eFG% is 55.8% while his TS% is off the charts at 61.8%. Can you seriously compare Redick’s pure efficiency number, TS% of 61.8% vs hinrich’s which is at an abysmal 47%? I mean the difference is out of this world!

    How about the old measure of FG%? Hinrich is at 38%. No, he doesn’t shoot that from 3pt land, he shoots that from the field! Even Fisher beats Hinrich here at 38.6%. Farmar comes in at a very respectable 44.3%. A very good number.

    Now, i doubt anyone can argue that Hinrich is one of the worst and most inefficient players in the ENTIRE NBA! Yet it seems that people bring up defense to his support. Well, as Darius pointed out, his defensive numers are very good. But defense is a TEAM game. No doubt that offense too has something to do with the team, but not even close to defense. Defense is almost entirely based on your team defense.

    Put Fisher on the 08 Celtics or those great Spurs teams and what do you have? A “great” defender. Of course not by himself, but on those teams his numbers would show it. I put very little stock in defensive numbers. No doubt that Hinrich is better on defense than Farmar/Fisher/etc. But by how much? The numbers will not show it clearly.

    And on offense we all know that while Fisher is an abomination, he is not as bad as Hinrich in ALL offensive numbers. And Farmar who we like to hate on, absolutely blows Hinrich out of the water.

    The funniest part of it all is that we are not just taking on Hinrich, but we are paying him an abnormal quantity of money AND giving up our assets (expiring contracts) in order to have the honer of paying this horrible player an enormous amount of money.

    As you can tell, i think this is a horrible trade. And since i’ve posted quite a few times on this, i’ll stop now.

    lol, Cavs going after all-star, PER of 24, Amare, and lakers going after crap role player with PER of 10.


  52. How do we expect we are going to trade our two “mid-height” bench players when our #2 SF is possibly out for the season? We will either have to put AMMO in and hope he can hold down the defensive side while the rest of the players can carry the offense or we will have to stack on the minutes for Kobe and limit Ron-Kobe together due to the situation. If we make a trade while having no projected time of Luke’s return than it would have to be for a 6’5″ish SG that can hit 3’s well enough to justify him playing undersized at SF or we need a descent defending foward that can play within our offense.
    Hinrich makes no sense with a bigger problem at SF right now, particularly if we have to give up the only other possible bench guys that can play SF.
    Edit: of course a shooting SF would be better than the other two options I have listed above.


  53. Also, what we need 2 b concerned about is the Amare 2 Cleveland move, if it transpires. Considerin’ the fact that the only piece the Cavs will b giving up is Hickson because the Suns will acquire & then just waive Big Z, which will allow him 2 return to Cleveland 30 days later. A frontcourt of bigs that consist of Big Z (7’3), Shaq (7’1), Mop Top (6’10) & Amare (6’10) is very imposing. Can’t 4get ’bout Leon Powe (Only 6’8, but rugged and physical) , who’s returning very shortly. Just Food 4 Thought.


  54. Kaveh’s not really off base with his criticism’s of Hinrich. Kirk is a bad offensive player this season and you’d have to question if he’d be any better on the Lakers than on the Bulls.

    However, I think if you’re going to make blanket statements about Hinrich’s offense, than it’d be helpful to analyze what Kirk is asked to do on his current team, then look at what he’d be asked to do on the Lakers, and then base any statements off of all those factors. I mean, the Bulls run a P&R offense that has a lot of drive and kick sets as well. In that offense, Kirk is an offensive creator for others as he runs the P&R and plays some of his time in isolation. Now, Kirk is not a high usage player (his usage is in the 17 range) and is asked to less on offense than Rose, Deng, and Salmons. But when you look at his usage, it’s still double what Fisher’s is for the Lakers in the Triangle. If Hinrich were transplanted to the Triangle, I’m pretty sure his role would change and that may have an effect on what his efficiency looks like. The key there is *may*. Would he shoot better if given more open jumpshots that were created off the post play and attention that Gasol, Kobe, and Bynum get rather than off the penetration of Rose or his own P&R’s when players go under screens? Would he get easier shots in the paint if they came off cuts and screen action rather than off his own penetration from isolations and P&R’s?

    I really don’t know the answer to these questions but I think they’re questions that need to be asked before we could really say what Kirk would look like on the Lakers. Like I said in my earlier comment, I’m not advocating we go and get the guy, per se. There are other considerations besides just fit on offense or on defense – namely his salary, what the Lakers would have to give up to get him, and what the mindset of the front office and Dr. Buss are. Some of these questions we don’t and won’t have answers for as none of us are on the inside of the Lakers’ war room. That said, I do think if he were to be acquired it wouldn’t be as cut and dry as even Hollinger has implied in some of his recent columns. I do agree that Kirk has underperformed for Chicago relative to his contract. Does that mean he’ll be that same player on a different team that runs entirely different schemes? That is the key question to me.


  55. Count me among those that believes you’d have to pull the trigger on a Hinrich deal. If it gives a us better chance of winning it all, which I think it does due to his defense, the extra money should be worth it.

    In response to Walton, I’ve got three ideas, two of which I can even convince myself are viable:

    1) Ammo for Kapono. Makes no sense for them since they’re both expiring deals, but gives us a pure shooter.

    2) The trade exception from Mihm for Devean George. He’s completely useless in any other context, but he could easily come in and give us some stop gap minutes thanks to his years of service in the triangle.

    3) Ammo’s expiring for James Posey. We all know NO is trying to shed payroll, and while it might be prohibitively expensive, I think Posey would be useful in a limited role for a great team.


  56. #49,

    If i was the Lakers i would do NOTHING. I believe that this team is good enough to win on its own. I would sit Fisher and play Farmar at the point. I would give Sasha a lot more playing time.

    I’m not sure why Sasha gets all this hate. Everyone is expecting this guy to be Ray Allen in his prime? Well, he is NOT Ray Allen in his prime, but he is a very decent role player. I would play Sasha at the “point.” I put the “” around it because i would really have Sasha initiate the offense. I would have Lamar and Kobe initiate the offense. One reason why we have been playing so well lately is because Lamar is the focal point of the offense, along with Pau in the post. It is Lamar who has been initiating the offense, and he has been doing a wonderful job.

    Look at Sasha’s numbers, not only for these last few weeks when he has played VERY well, but for the whole year, and his numbers are quite good.

    Look at my last post for hinrich/Farmar/Fisher numbers. Sasha’s are:

    TS: 55% (incredibly efficient this year!)
    eFG%: 51% (again, very good)
    3pt%: 37%
    fg: 41%

    What this tells me is on offense, Sasha is an incredibly EFFICIENT player. Compare his TS% of 55% with hinrich who is at one of the worst numbers for a player who actually plays, at 47%.

    Sasha is 6’7″, can shoot the 3pt shot, can play pesky defense, and doesn’t need to take too many possessions. Sasha has a usage rate of 14% compared to hinrich who is at 17%. So Sasha, even though much more efficient, doesn’t use up as many as Hinrich. Sasha can also rebound if given the direction to do so.

    Can Sasha play better defense than Hinrich? Probably not. But at 6’7″, he is a good player to give PT time to.

    So basically, i would play Farmar/Sasha/Brown and cut Fisher’s minutes. Sasha particularly should be allowed to play many more minutes.

    As far as trades go. I would make only trades which are no lose trades. Devin Harris from the Nets is all-star talent. If the nets gave us him for expiring contracts, i would get him. If i could get Amare/Jamison/Murphy for expiring contracts, i would get them. Basically, only make a trade out of a position of strength. Only when you are taking candy for a baby. Otherwise, it’s not necessary.


  57. I agree with you Darius. We need a guard who can defend. 17 point aganist Fisher defense is a joke. I don’t care if Henrich ever shoots. We don’t need offense. Fisher is last in the NBA in point per game, assists per game and defense in all point starters.

    Make that trade or stand pat and continue to get pounded by Fisher’s lack of defense


  58. so taking candy from a baby = a position of strength?

    well done, Kaveh


  59. Kaveh,

    I agree with you on Sasha, I do believe that we focus way too much on the missed shots and the contract, and not enough on what he does bring. And I am one of those who likes what he brings.

    That being said, Hinrich’s defense would be immensely more valuable to a deep run in the playoffs. We all know that games and series can turn on a run of stops late in playoff games, and having a guy on the court who can make that happen may make all the difference.

    And anyone who saw Hinrich man up against Pierce in that epic Chi-Bos series knows that he is fully capable of doing that, something that I just don’t see from Fish, Brown, Farmar, or Sasha. Basically, I would throw the rest out the window, assuming that it’s about a wash, but man-o-man would I love to have another proven playoff crunch time shut down defender.


  60. I believe the best thing to do is take candy from a baby. I would not trade candy for a baby by any means, except maybe for Twizzlers, which are awful.

    I like those numbers. I knew Hinrich was a pretty bad shooter, but didn’t have any idea how bad. Like Darius said, we have to evaluate his fit on the team. We can’t say for sure, but I actually don’t think his shooting would improve too much. I haven’t watched much of Chicago this year, but in recent years, it seemed like Hinrich got his fair share of open looks.

    That said, his defense should not be denigrated. By the same logic, you can dismiss Garnett’s stats and say he’s part of a great “team defense.” Maybe we should think about it the other way – is Hinrich one of the main catalysts for the elite perimeter D the Bulls had a few years back? From a qualitative standpoint, I vote yes. I’ve watched quite a bit of the Bulls over the years (as I live near Chicago) and I can say unequivocally that Hinrich is a top-notch wing defender. Derrick Rose, for example, is a part of that same team defense. His PER against is nearly double Hinrich’s, at over 15.

    No, I am not in favor of a Hinrich trade. But let’s not try to write off his superb defensive stats as a product of a system. Sometimes the system is a product of great individual production. Hinrich was the Bulls’ best perimeter defender when they were the top perimeter defensive team in the league.


  61. To completely change the topic, has anyone else read the chat with Larry Coon ovr at Hoopsworld?

    Interesting comments regarding Kobe’s extension talks, suggesting that the inclusion of a “no trade” clause has been a sticking point.


  62. I would love to see us pick up NIck Young from the wizards. I would even give up Shannon for him! I’ve followed him a bit for the past year or so and he has alot of potential. I know Shannon has potential (and knows the system) but this guy is taller and shoots better from three at 41.5%. Plus sources say that Wizards aren’t done shedding money and having Shannon’s expiring contract would take care of that. A trade exception could also save them money next year but have them come out even this year.

    If anyone thinks that there’s no one at Washington that cares about small contracts like that, this trade could also have an “Iverson” affect for them to get Shannon for a high flying act that can bring some entertainment to a struggling franchise.

    Lastly, I’d say I’m just as much of a Shannon fan as the next guy but I think that after about a season of Shannon being here I’d say that he just isn’t going to replace Ariza’s defense. Although, I think bringing in a guy like Yong may be able to provide that “hustle” void that has been missing since Ariza’s departure. Not to mention a good 3pt shooter.

    Please Mitch, check up on what we have to say at FB&G!
    Oh and if anyone is still for the Kirk trade, explain how it would work under the circumstances I mentioned in comment 53.


  63. Kaveh’s support of Sasha suggests to me that his opinion is to be completely disregarded.

    And something tells me Kirk’s shooting percentages would do more than slightly improve going from a team with absolutely no post presence, to one that features Kobe, Pau, Drew + Lamar.

    I doubt he will play his ‘pesky’ defense 40 feet from the basket when in the penalty either…


  64. If Hinrich is traded for Morrison and Vujacic, current Laker rotations could continue without interruption, since Sasha has played so few minutes. If Hinrich could make the contribution the Lakers would hope (and other teams fear), he could evolve into the rotation–and help out considerably in the playoffs. The risk for getting him this season is thus negligable.

    However, any considerations for Kurt must go beyond this season. If the Lakers were outbid for Jordan and WOW for next season. they would only have Derek Fisher left (I can’t imagine him leaving the Lakers), with an inability to go after any free agent pg at Hinrich’s level.

    Despite what some naysayers might say, Kurt is a tradeable asset, and multiple teams (including the Celtics) are apparently trying to trade for Hinrich this season–the player that Kaveh (45) has excorciated with bathroom language. Maybe Kaveh should read what the Celtics and Bulls fans have to say about Hinrich. We all read the same stats.

    On the other hand, “the broken machine”(perhaps out of the repair shop) that Kaveh would involve more in this season’s rotation may indirectly prevent the Lakers from getting Hinrich–since no team–other than the Lakers–have ever made Sasha an offer.


  65. #62. PhilAus,
    I’d read the same thing about Kobe’s negotiations and the hold up with the extension not being about the money, but about the no-trade clause. A no trade clause is a lot of power for a player. And even though I can’t really imagine a scenario that Kobe would ever get traded in the life of his extension (reportedly a 3 year extension – the same number of years that Pau, LO, and Ron are locked up for), I can understand why Kobe would want to maintain the status quo of his current deal while also imagining that the Lakers would want to keep their options open as a franchise.

    #63. Jeremy,
    Shannon’s deal isn’t a true expiring contract. Shannon has a player option to opt out and any time it’s the players option it’s a calculated gamble that the player will actually opt out. If I were the Wiz and wanting to cut payroll, I’m not sure if I’d take that gamble on WOW when they could just keep Young and see what they have next season when they’re in full rebuilding mode and don’t have Butler, Stevenson, and potentially be without Jamison. I mean, Young may be a part of their plans now that their only real guards are Foye and Miller.

    As for your question about potentially losing Ammo and Sasha in a trade while having Luke’s status in question, I think Sasha is a guard and Ammo doesn’t play. Even without Luke, I don’t think Ammo plays any meaningful minutes and if Sasha got more run, we’d still have to play either Kobe or Ron at SF. So, if the Lakers have to give up those guys, I just think the Lakers end up playing Ron more and we’d see more minutes for Kobe and even LO at SF. That’s not ideal, but realistically this is what would happen in the playoffs anyway. Based off past history, Phil will shorten the rotation and we’d probably see more minutes for our core players across the board. If Hinrich is the player that were acquired in a trade, he’s a swing player and could play SG anyway and I could easily envision the Lakers going super small with a Fisher (or Farmar), WOW, Kirk lineup at PG/SG/SF and put those guys with two of LO/Pau/Bynum for stretches if the match ups were right with either WOW or Kirk guarding the opposing SF (this is a lineup that could work against a lot of teams actually – Houston: Brooks/Lowry/Battier or Ariza, Utah: Deron/Brewer/Korver or Miles, Denver: Lawson/Billups/Aaflalo or Graham, Portland: Blake or Bayless/Miller/Roy). It’s not that rare that teams go small nowadays and the Lakers could do the same thing if needed.

    All that said, I think we’re all getting ahead of ourselves. I’m as guilty as anyone with this, but we’re truly speculating on something that probably won’t even happen when discussing the Lakers making a trade.


  66. Darius: Thanks for the thorough responses, on a variety of topics. Always enjoyable to have a moderator really weigh in on a topic.

    Even more off-topic than before: Is it wrong that when I see a headline saying “Arrest warrent issued” on ESPN, I initially see “Artest warrent issued”?

    I swear that’s caught me more than once today.


  67. I am definitely not in the Laker boardroom, but I certainly would be interested in their opinion of Sasha. While our views are wildly divergent on this site, Phil has quietly gone about rebuilding Sasha’s confidence and game to where he isn’t the scatter-shot defender he once was and he is now hitting open shots. The remaining games are where Phil really works his magic. If we are in the middle of an on-going trend with Sasha, I truly doubt any trade will take place – a 3pt shooting defender about 6′ 7″ is sort of exactly what we need.

    As for Walton, his injuries have meant less and less minutes for him and the team is now is a position that they won’t be affected by his loss – unlike us fans (on both sides of the issue). I personally think we will have Luke for at least 3 of his next 4 contract years – unless, of course, he is forced to retire due to injury.


  68. Let’s first agree on what needs to be improved and in what order.

    1. PG defense
    2. 3pt shooting (PG, SG, SF)
    3. Shedding payroll

    I think these are the three things that the Lakers actively seek (or should be seeking) via trades, if they are looking at trades at all. In reality, it’s probably in the reverse order – Lakers probably are trying to shed payroll without touching the core harder than they are seeking trades to improve the team.

    With this in mind, I think defense in the PG position is a very rare commodity and something that may or may not have to be addressed. I’m thinking Steve Nash the scorer here – we’ve been successful when we limited Nash’s passing even if he scorched us with his scoring.

    Of course this would work only if the opposing teams’ offense revolved around the PG like the Suns, but still it suggests to me that if other positions are defendable 1-1, we could easily live with one hole.

    As for 3pt shooting, we actually have ‘semi-proven’ commodities in Fisher, Sasha and Luke. They were all 40% shooters once, and there is always possibility to regain that. Once our 3pt shooting improves, our spacing will improve, and so will our offense. As defense is somewhat related to offense, once our offense improves, our defense will too.


  69. 67 PhilAus- I swear I was gonna write the same thing in my last thread but I forgot to!


  70. Jeremy, I’ll bite.

    I would still be in favor of getting Hinrich for one reason: playoff crunch time.

    No doubt, we’d be thinner all around, but I’d give up depth for quality. I would feel a whole lot better throwing out Hinrich-Kobe-Artest on defense come crunch time in a tight game six or seven, with a choice of LO, Pau, and Bynum protecting the rim.

    Obviously, minutes would be problem for the rest of the season, and giving a bunch to whoever is left on the team might cost us a couple of games, and home court even, but minutes are less of an issue in the playoffs, for me, it would be worth it.


  71. Darius,

    Agree with everything you say in this thread.

    My biggest concern on adding a guard or wing guy with 30 games left is Hinrich’s understanding of the triangle offense? Like you said, he’s always been a P&R guy and no idea if he understands the system.

    This isn’t like adding a Pau Gasol, a big man. The system for the big man is not as complex as the wing players.


  72. Not that anyone cares what I think, but I say the Lakers stand pat. The team they have is good enough to win it all.


  73. We might as well make this the Kirk Hinrich thread… and we all know there are a million of these all over fanboards.

    Anyhow, the problem at the PG position has been help up for so long due to our immense talent and depth and quality of coaching. But just because the wound is covered up in bandage and is not painful when not hit doesn’t make the wound disappear.

    The Lakers need to admit that we have a huge hole at the PG position. Fish or no Fish, the Lakers need to reconsider options, those readily available and those that might need to be pursued.

    In a post I did a couple of days ago, I made mention of the possibility of the Lakers letting Bynum explore his stardom elsewhere. In return, we will be getting THAT PG we all so desperately need and a Chinese Fortune Cookie. I’m of course referring to Devin Harris and Yi Jianlian. The deal would include Farmar + Ammo or Sasha from our end and the Nets would add in pieces like Hayes and Boone.

    1st question: Why would NJ do it?

    Bynum is a NJ native. For the length and breadth of the Kidd-to-LA discussion, NJ has coveted the young center as the main reason they will do the deal.

    NJ has the 1st overall pick in its hands. Well technically speaking not YET, but it can be no worse than 4th. They have a 25% shot at securing the #1 overall pick, which will almost certainly be John Wall. The point of course is that NJ goes super young, makes Devin Harris (and his contract) expendable.

    2nd question: Why would WE do it?

    Its almost comical from the POV of the triangle to acquire a me-1st PG like Devin Harris to run it. I’m sure about 2/3 of the fanbase will agree with the notion of him being NOT THE RIGHT PG for us. I beg to differ. Harris is a scoring PG, not a very high-assist guy and it means he will thrive in our system and he will not dominate the ball.

    I just can’t begin to tell everyone here how much fortune Buss can make out of Yi. The whole of China will now split in the middle if LA and HOU met during exhibition games, our bench will be regarded as star players, our problems will also be blown out of proportion but that comes with the territory,… but most of all, Yi is a cash cow. He will make Buss so much money that he will forget about that thing called the tax. He is 7-feet legit and he has the range to be effective as a stretch 4 for our system. Think Big Shot Rob Horry.

    Because Bynum is BYC, and its too big a deal to complete within 48 hours of discussion, the deal might not happen till the offseason. That would be sad because if the same deal did happen during the deadline, Buss would be saving himself 6M right off the bat, 12M if you include the tax.


  74. OT kind of, Kobe had a no-trade in his last contract (this one), didn’t he? I think it was for like the last two years or something, that does give a player a lot of control over the franchise in a way, but Kobe is the Laker franchise, is he not. After all of the reading here in this thread, if we get Hinrich fine, if not I will not be disappointed you might say, either way will work for me.


  75. warren,

    D. Harris is a score first, ball in hand point guard that uses pick and rolls and isos to get his scoring.

    He would not fit the triangle at all.


  76. I got a trade that would make our championship run so much easier, its not even funny….ok here it goes…..Jump into the t-mac to knicks trade and offer this up……Al Harrington, Duhon, David Lee, Darko, D fish, n Josh Powell to the rockets….McGrady, Morrison, and Farmar to the Knicks, and Nate Robinson and Trev to us….Knicks and Rockets both get cap room for next year’s FA’s, the Rockets would get an all star in David Lee, the Knicks could sell more tickets with t-mac, and lakers get the point and wing defender needed….It makes sense for both the Rockets and Lakers and when have the Knicks done anything thats made sense!! Pass this on to Mitch and lets get it done!!


  77. Spurs probably wouldn’t want to make us stronger but

    Roger Mason Jr anyone?


  78. 77 Nick- I want Trevor back too man, but the damn thing just ain’t happenning.

    78 STD- If only it wasn’t San Antonio. The only group that would hate helping us more than the Spurs is the Spurs fans. The streets would go wild in South Texas if we gave them Trash for their talented backup pg. I could honestly see any team helping us before San Antonio.


  79. Warren, you know I definitely respect your ideas, but that trade doesn’t make a ton of sense, in my opinion, from the Lakers standpoint.

    First, saying Harris is a scoring guard and then saying he won’t dominate the ball is contradictory. I understand what you’re trying to say. But consider the ways Harris scores. He’s a classic dribble-drive, pounding the ball guard. He doesn’t score off cuts; he doesn’t move well without the ball. If we get him for a future without the triangle, I can see the merits. As far as triangle fit, I see some of the same problems that we say with Gary Payton. I’m aware of the age and situational differences. Still, you have an average shooting top-notch defensive guard who is most comfortable with the ball in his hands.

    Let’s not forget Harris’s best year – right after the trade – was when Frank implemented the dribble-drive offense tailored to Harris’s needs. The triangle’s constraints would lower his value considerably.

    Now, I’m not an economics person, so someone please educate me where I’m wrong. But I don’t quite understand how Yi will transform Buss’s wealth. Let’s not forget that Kobe has an unrivaled level of popularity in China. Buss already has arguably the basketball player most popular in China on his squad. Kobe has bigger endorsements, bigger connections, bigger star power. How will Yi amplify that?

    I’m just not very high on those 2 players. Yi has shown flashes, but I don’t think he has the aggressive type mentality to change his style of play. What mainly separated someone like Horry and Brian Cook is mentality. Defensively, I do not want Yi up against the 4’s in this league. I don’t mind Harris, of course, but not when the price is a legit 20-10 beast in Bynum.


  80. Wow…a lot of good, thoughtful debate.

    Kaveh started to sway me on his opinion of the state of the team until he said this: “Sasha is an incredibly EFFICIENT player.”

    The numbers absolutely back that statement up, but the next important shot Sasha hits will be his first since Game 3 of the 2008 Finals.

    Stats can be very useful in assessing a player, but you also have to believe your eyes.

    The Bulls have been winning since Hinrich moved into the starting lineup – someone posted an article recently from a Chicago paper that talked about Hinrich being the “glue-guy” for the team. His offensive efficiency numbers may be pretty bad, but he must be doing something right (I realize that’s a week argument).

    I also like Darius’ point that Hinrich won’t be asked to do the same things in the Laker offense – so his efficiency may improve.

    How many people thought Pau Gasol would be a superstar in the triangle? Sometimes “fit” makes a huge difference in a player’s performance.

    Finally, the biggest issue the Lakers have right now, is that they may as well put a Saloon Door instead of a point guard on defense. Do you realize what a difference it will make to upgrade from, literally, the worst pg defenders in the NBA to one of the best?

    Hinrich’s defensive numbers are an example where the stats back up what you see with your eyes. As Darius said, he can guard 1’s, 2’s, and 3’s.

    The Lakers have plenty of offensive weapons…they need more defenders.

    Hinrich would give them that extra defender.

    It’s not my money, but I would do what it takes to get him on the team.

    BTW – I saw on ESPN that the Clippers traded Camby for Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw…I’m guessing that nixes any potential three-way trade involving Portland…


  81. I think our issues as a team are not being characterized accurately. Quick Pg defense is a problem to be sure (one of our biggest), but as Kurt pointed out so many times on this site, defending quick PGs is impossible with the current rules. In fact, defense isn’t this teams problem: we haven been first our second in defensive efficiency all year.

    What we need is someone who can spread the floor, who can pass the ball around and be a good team and/or one on one defender.

    Fisher cannot shoot this season. Farmar has shot well, is playing better and looks to be a good contributor. Doesn’t run the offense and team defense suffers. Forget the numbers. Anyone who has watched hinrich play knows he is an excellent one on one and team defender but only an ok shooter.

    If we can get him for Sasha and Morrison ( which i think the bulls will do as it ultimately saves 5 mil), Kirk will add the defensive element we need while being a equal if not, likely, better shooter than fisher, while still retaining farmars offensive spark.


  82. Why does everyone want Trevor Ariza back so bad? He can’t shoot or guard SF’s. He is a SG. We have a good SG already named Kobe. I would love to have Ariza come off the bench. In fact I wanted the Lakers to resign him after they acquired Artest because he would again be great with our 2nd unit. But he can’t guard SF’s.


  83. I think Pat Riley’s making a mistake going after Amare. He’s panicking a little. If Amare doesn’t opt out (which I doubt he will, if he goes to Miami), they just blew their shot at Bosh. Especially since they’ll also be losing Beasley and a 1st round draft pick in the process.

    I think Lebron to Miami is doubtful, but I think Bosh to Miami is a very strong possibility. And no matter how frustrated Wade is now, he wouldn’t leave Miami with Bosh there. You built all that cap space, Riles, and to lose it all with an 11th hour panic move…I don’t like it for Miami.

    Of course, that leaves Bosh open to S&T’s this offseason…


  84. Looks like Portland has absolutely no reason to consider taking on (or passing on) Sasha’s contract.;_ylt=Aj4SMiIrGAFT8Pzw_xP6eoG8vLYF?slug=mc-cambytrade021510&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

    Don’t know what the Clips are thinking dealing Camby to an in conference rival for spare change. Seems like Portland has a lot more need for a quality big (on an expiring contract) like Camby than the Clips do of trading for two potential bench players that may not even be in their long term plans.


  85. @81 Burgandy

    Freekin Clippers!!!!

    Why would you trade the one SOB who wants to play on your team. He even wanted to work out and extension. The team is pissed, they said giving him up for a back-up pg and cash was stupid.;_ylt=ArHBaeQtoyaWdu12inb_48O8vLYF?slug=mc-cambytrade021510&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


  86. Riles might be reacting to Bosh’s comments about being a player to be built around, and interpreting them to mean that Bosh isn’t ready to be a team’s #2 option.

    As for the Nets, I think they probably covet Bynum less now with Brook Lopez in the mix. He’s not as far along as Drew, but he’s a legit C who (imo) will be an all-star some day.


  87. The problem I have with anyone wanting Amare is he never played without Steve Nash, and I fear a repeat of Shawn Marion. Marion had better defense though.

    Camby goes from the cursed clippers to the injury cursed blazers…. that would suck.


  88. @78 The STD

    The ony way that works is if San Antonio could unload Richard Jefferson to Phoenix for Jason Richardson. We give up Sasha to SA for Roger Mason Jr.

    LA gets a defensive minded SG for a steaming pile.

    San Antonio gets a larger expiring contract (more money off the books) and a better match as a starter.

    Phoenix gets screwed. Oh well.


  89. @86 bruinsfan

    His comment gave me the impression that he didn’t feel like he should take a shorter contract for less money coming to someone else’s team. We leads me to believe that the only way he leaves Toronto is through a sign and trade.

    Amare is the logical choice for right now to get Wade to sign on the dotted line. I would much rather Amare in Miami than in Cleveland. Though I don’t understand why Phoenix won’t take the AI2 and Dalembert trade for Amare and filler.


  90. The Amare to Philly Trade would look like this:

    Philly would give up Dalembert, AI2 and Kapono and would get Amare, J Rich, and J Collins. Dollar for Dollar match with Phoenix getting $7 million off the books and two productive players in the coming year.

    Philly gets their man in Amare in addition to a servicable J Rich plus rids themselves of Kapono.


  91. I feel like all these trade-for-PG moves being mentioned are very lateral moves. How much does adding Hinrich mid-season truly help us? Better D from the point guard position but no guarantee of better offensive production. This maneuver really isn’t worth the extra millions it would cost us next year.

    Thinking outside the box and long-term, the Lakers should consider this: GINOBILI. I know it might sound crazy, but the dude’s contract expires and he becomes a free agent this summer. The Lakers should go after him with a full, long-term mid level offer.

    He’s old-ish, and health has been a concern. But the Lakers don’t need him to slash and attack as he does with SA. We need someone who can a) shoot 3s b) defend and c) run the offense. Check, check, and check. As a bonus, we know this guy can be a firecracker when necessary. To the best of my knowledge, SA didn’t extend him right?

    As it seems there are no feasible home run type deals out there, I think we should sit tight and throw everything but the kitchen sink (aka the mid-level) at Ginobili when the season’s over. As hard as it might be to swallow the idea of staying a contender rather than a clear favorite this season (you spoiled, spoiled little fans… including myself), perhaps waiting it out then swinging for the fences is the right course of action.

    Anyone remember how effective Ron Harper was as our triangle point ten years ago? Now imagine Ginobili playing his role except he’d be three years younger and clearly more talented than Harper was in 2000.



  92. Ginobili? That’s another guy Kobe respects, so if possible (i doubt it, really) that would be something.


  93. Are we allowed to discuss trades?

    if so here is the trade that ends the world as we know it.


  94. I know this is not a trade per se but since reading @93’s comment, Do you think the Lakers could offer Reddick the MLE, he’s one of the guys with the highest BB IQ out there, can shoot the 3 and I think would be way better than getting Hinrich, He is a smart defender although he does lack the athleticism to hang with the smaller PG’s, but the guy is only 25 and could be a viable Triangle PG.

    I don’t think the Magic would trade him to us but it would be a very solid pickup IMO


  95. Anon, 93, THIS is the end of the proverbial world:


  96. I don’t read other team’s threads much, but, if this is where trade talk goes, I see why Kurt wanted to establish a blog without such talk.

    There are some really good ideas, but they are mostly beaten to death by 1) overwork and 2) the rest of the crap thrown against the wall.

    I guess it is all in fun, but oh the waste of time – and I am currently reading it. At least it is only the occasional thread.


  97. Im all for the Hinrich trade. His numbers wont get any worse playing with the Lakers cast. He’ll have a much smaller easier role where he can’t hurt the team any worse than the Lakers pg’s are right now.

    Chicago is 2nd last in offensive efficiency… I think that’s whats hurting his numbers. Playing in a great offense is going to make life much easier for him.

    The defensive versatility the Lakers gain from this is amazing. Hinrich has shown he can guard all 3 guard/wing positions from players like Wade to Pierce.

    His contract isn’t equivalent to his talent but w.e. It improves the Lakers chances this season that’s all that matters.


  98. Some people seem to wonder if getting a player who is a major defensive upgrade, but not an offensive upgrade, is really worth it. Umm, the point of the game is to put the ball in a hole more times then the other guy.

    If you are one of the very best alive at stopping the other guy, but below average at putting it in yourself, you’ll still win more then you lose. See Kurt Hinrich.

    On the other hand, if you are one of the worst in the game at stopping the other guy, and about average at putting it in yourself, you’ll lose more then you win. See Lakers current PGs.

    Luckily, there’s 4 more positions out there in which we typically put the ball in more then the other guys, so the Lakers still win more then they loose. But there’s tough competition at the top, and it makes sense to fix what is broken.


  99. I know this may sound ridiculous to some, but a shooter who can space the floor is probably the most glaring weakness the Lakers have. Granted the stats say our PG is our weakest position, but we have gotten to the Finals 2 years in a row with a supposed mediocre guard. However, what would help us is a true shooter. Cleveland has 3 of the Top 10 3-pt shooters on their team (Parker, Williams, Gibson), Boston has Allen, Pierce, and House. Orlando has Lewis, Reddick, and Pietrus.

    Therefore, how about Ammo for Vlad Rad. There will be no learning curve for him since he knows the triangle and there will be no pressure on him to be our starting SF and he can relax and play off the bench.


  100. If Minnesota acts as the facilitator that Portland was rumored to be earlier this week, then I don’t see how the Lakers turn this down. They’d be losing Vujacic and Morrison for undoubtedly one of the premier perimeter defenders in the league, and his numbers would undoubtedly go up when he’s transferred from Chicago’s joke of an offense (whose only “plays” are a high screen for Rose or Hinrich or an isolation; it’s largely Rose’s greatness that’s sustaining this team) to the triangle.

    Also to Kaveh, you do realize that the fantastic asset Cleveland would be trading for gives up a 20.0 PER to opposing fours whereas Hinrich limits point guards to a 8.3 PER?


  101. “Instead of finding someone to stop quick point guards, which isn’t going to happen because nobody stops quick point guards in this league, how about we find a viable shooter?”

    Good news. Over the last 14 games Farmar has shot 53% and 44% from 3.

    Those numbers over an entire season would make him the best shooter in the entire league.

    Is Farmar on a hot streak? Sure. But it’s getting to the point of ridiculousness that he can’t get more than 20 minutes a game. He should have started over Fisher a while ago.


  102. Get rid of Morrison. Ariza back to La.