Five games ago Byron Scott made a change to his starting lineup, moving Jeremy Lin and Carlos Boozer to the bench in favor of Ronnie Price and Ed Davis. At the time, the move did not sit well with me as the changes did not seem to be based off any real statistical evidence and I said so going into their first game together. So far, my mind hasn’t really changed about this specific starting lineup being any better suited to compete against other team’s starters.
Per NBA.com/stats, the new starting group of Price, Kobe, Wes Johnson, Davis, and Jordan Hill are still posting a negative net efficiency with an offensive efficiency of 99.2 and a defensive efficiency of 109.0 since that game against the Pelicans. This isn’t quite the minus-15.0 efficiency rating the original starting group posted before the change and nowhere near the minus-23.5 efficiency rating this group was posting together before they became the starters, but it is still bad. They are struggling offensively and still not doing a very good job of stopping teams from scoring efficiently, consistently forcing the other units to make up the gap they create.
Fortunately for the Lakers, the shift in starters has created a bench unit that has shown it is able to make up the difference against other team’s reserve units. With Lin and Boozer anchoring the bench, a new unit of those two flanked by Wayne Ellington, Nick Young, and Robert Sacre has been playing extremely well since the change. That five has posted a net efficiency rating of plus-21.0, boasting a fantastic offensive efficiency of 110.9 with a very stingy defensive efficiency of 89.9.
While sample size and “noise” in the numbers are a real caveat — that defensive efficiency number, for example, will not hold — I am encouraged by what I have seen from this group. They offer a balanced attack offensively and have enough athleticism and size to deal with most opposing units on both ends of the floor.
Jeremy Lin has been especially important to this group ability to get into the paint and be a shot creator for himself and teammates. Beyond Lin, the scoring and shooting ability of Young and Ellington on each wing are stretching defenses out to the three point line and giving Boozer and Sacre more room in the mid and low-post to score. Further, with both Boozer and Sacre showing an ability to hit the mid-range jumper with some consistency, the driving lanes for Lin are more open which only reinforces the strengths of the other players.
The key to this unit, however, may simply be that they are mostly playing against other team’s benches. Lin and Young are typically the first subs into the game, replacing Price and Wes about halfway through the quarter. Boozer will replace Hill or Davis a bit later and then Sacre will replace the other big when Ellington replaces Kobe near the end of the first period. By the time the 2nd quarter starts, this group has had a couple of minutes together to find their stride and then are put up against mostly bench players from the other team. Against these units, the Lakers’ group typically has more talent and it is showing in their production.
It is hard to know if this was what Scott had in mind when he made a change to the starting group. When the change was made he only spoke about it in terms of that group needing what Price and Davis provide (defense) and not some bigger reorganization of his lineups in an attempt to maximize his bench. So far, however, the latter is what is occurring and it is helping the Lakers stay in games for longer and win a few additional contests (they are 3-2 since the change).
So while this change didn’t really fix the starting group, a true bench unit has been established and is flourishing early on. Hopefully it sticks. If it does, Scott’s change may indeed end up paying some dividends.
Woody says
Word to Jeremy Lin, when you bring the ball up the court be Steve Nash, if you get the ball back be LINSANITY.
Tankyou says
Second unit definitely has been rocking. But Kobe is put back into the 2nd unit too much. Rest him, quit playing him 35+mpg for goodness sakes. The 2nd unit seems to play better when Kobe isn’t part of it. I said before the 2nd unit is likely better than our 1st unit now–overall. So I would assume they would take it to the other teams 2nd units. Clearly that helped us get a couple of our recent wins. Although, during those wins Scott played Lin/Boozer more minutes than he did Price & Davis.
This team is just built wrong, and its pretty rough to have an extremely ball dominant player like Kobe trying to play with basically any point guard that plays as anything beyond a spot up shooter. All these rumors about Pg’s make no sense to me. Kobe needs someone who is just basically a shooting guard 3 point specialist. Until recently Lin was ranked 44-45th in PG usage rates in the league, that was when he was averaging 30mins a game. That was a very telling stat, a ton of bench players had the ball more than him. Until Kobe retires, point guard is a worthless position for us–unless someone can tell Kobe to play off the ball more (good luck with that). But Kobe can’t begin to cover most SG’s, so covering a PG is completely out of the question. This team needs a center, if any trade goes down I hope its for a SF and a Center.
Not that it matters much anyway, until Kobe retires there is no rebuild going on of any note. This is just another bad holding pattern as we get to watch some glimpes of the young Kobe, mixed in with lots of the declining/tired/poor shooting aging Kobe. Apparently Scott and Kobe refuse to acknowledge that fatigue is a major factor, or that shooting 33% on high volume hurts the team. At least when Ronnie Price shoots bad he’s only shooting 5 shots. Add Swaggy streak shooter to the mix (love swaggy but the dude is a black hole less than 1 assist per game) and you have ball dominant shooting guards for both the 1st and second unit.
If they got Rondo I would hurt myself laughing, as if Kobe is going to completely bow down to him. Plus Rondo is an assist padder and would get real frustrated dumping passes to Kobe just to see him dribble a couple times and blow his potential assist. Maybe Kobe would bring his usage down below 40% for a perceived Alpha guard, but at this point I dont’ really believe it. It think it would lead to turmoil. At least Price/Lin are clearly not alpha’s, Kobe’s play shows he really doesn’t want that–despite his words to the contrary. Kobe plays a lot of psychological games, more than just about anybody in the NBA, he doesn’t do much by accident and he yo-yo’s the media really well.
PurpleBlood says
It is hard to know if this was what Scott had in mind when he made a change to the starting group. When the change was made he only spoke about it in terms of that group needing what Price and Davis provide (defense) and not some bigger reorganization of his lineups in an attempt to maximize his bench. So far, however, the latter is what is occurring…
___
Perhaps it was unexpected, but someitmes the need for a change in `energy´, be it material or spiritual, opens up previously unseen doors – the task is to recognize them & act accordingly.
Keep it up fellas!
___
This from E. Pincus yesterday: (if anyone hasn´t read it)
Durant remains a long shot to join the Lakers, but his fondness for Bryant may help renew the team’s hopes to land one of the top talents in the NBA.
___
KD was quoted as saying he´d be one guy who´d love the chance to play alongside Mamba day in & day out. He cited his experience with KB on the Olympic team as a factor in his remarks.
Yeah brother!
Calvin Chang says
Good analysis, Darius. Hopefully Scott sticks with this rotation. History has proven that point guards that flourish with Kobe are guards that play defense and can hit open 3s. (Derek Fisher, Ron Harper) This is because when Kobe plays, he dictates the rhythm of the game and plays quarterback. Kobe is not a catch-and-shoot guard like a Jodie Meeks. I think the perfect guard to complement Kobe is Gary Neal.
Oldtimer says
Well, they won 3 games and lost 1 since the change was implemented. One thing I noticed, a good defense was instituted with the new starters while the 2nd unit have a better offense and motivated to improve in order to get back former position. As a whole, whatever changes Scott would implement, the results will be so-so with a so-so roster, it is just a musical chairs game. They lack a true PG, (IMO, Lin is an SG or SF while Price is 2nd unit PG) a reliable marksman SF and a dependable C who can stop and out-rebound competing Centers here in the West.
If FO wanted to improve, there are 2nd tiers stars available for trade in the market, what is their real objective for the season?
tankyou says
Purple blood, regarding the K. Durant quote, I think that is more smoking mirrors. Durant is not coming here to play with old Kobe, its just an attempt to be nice publicly knowing he isn’t going anywhere yet and Kobe likely will be retired by the time he does. If Durant was a free agent this year, I would bet a lot of money he would never come to the Lakers next year to play with Kobe. Not just b/c of Kobe but b/c of the entire team, or whatever team may end up being thrown together next year–since a lot of these guys will be gone soon enough.
A young Kobe, sure lots of people would still want to play with young Kobe–because he was a beast and he picked his moments better to pass, or dunk on someone. Those days are over, at best we hope to see him knock down some crazy fade-aways, or a spurt where he tries hard to facilitate for others.
CalvinChang, I agree with Neal, but actually think Jodie Meeks would have been a great PG for Kobe, of course he left for money and got hurt. But Meeks is a good shooter. But I pray the Lakers don’t try and fit a team around Kobe for one last run, and then set this team up for years of problems with more poorly built teams. Once Kobe leaves, a non-pg-ish PG will not be helpful and a lot of the names we may get, aren’t ones most of want to see beyond a couple years b/c they are already Old now. But I have no faith in the FO at this point, and the market for players available seems pretty poor. Trades and longshot draft picks may be all we can hope for, but its hard to trade lots of one year contracts, not all teams actually want cap room some don’t want to deal with hoping the player resigns with them.
tankyou says
Oldtimer, completely disagree with you on this “Lin isn’t a pg” stuff. He led this team in assists, and continues to do so lots of games from the bench only playing 20mins. He’s not a rondo PG, he’s definitely more of a scoring pg type, but if he controlled the ball more he could easily get 8+ assists every game. He’s more of a passing Pg than Steph Curry is, who is adept at passing but is really more of a SG. At worst Lin is a combo guard, this SF stuff I have know idea what you mean about that? First off in the modern nba 6’3″ guys just aren’t playing Small forward. Lin is fast as all out, he’s a slashing type pg basically. But he never got to really play PG b/c of Scott/Kobe. IF Rondo had 18% usage rate, he wouldn’t be doing much better than Lin’s 4.8 assists per game.
As long as Kobe is playing and controlling the ball over 40% of the time, no point guard is going to really look like a PG at the same time. Was Derek Fisher a true PG? For the most part fisher just played off the ball and jacked up 3’s as a spot up shooter and tried to play D. He wasn’t out there being Steve Nash. I’m sure if Lin gets a chance to play somewhere else, you will see him getting a lot of assists, unless he plays with James Harden again.
Lakafan says
Ramona Shelburne ?@ramonashelburne 1h1 hour ago
Lakers offer for Rondo was Nash & multiple picks. They have Houston’s first in 2015 from Lin trade.
Ramona is a pretty credible source so I’m guessing Darius will let this go thru. If Lakers give up another 1st rd pick or 2 for a ball dominant injury prone PG, they are truly morons!
Vasheed says
Problem with Lin when I saw him in NY was that he doesn’t handle ball pressure very well. Lin has some serious kinks to his game that if he ever figures them out could become an all-star. As is he is a flawed starter. He is a PG but would be helped by having other ball handlers on the court, as long as he gets the ball back, or as is the case being pitted against weaker defenders.
Part of the success of the 2nd unit is that both Boozer and Sacre have been underrated this season. Boozer isn’t what he used to be but he’s not as bad as many infer. Sacre has quietly polished his game and become a legitimate back up big. Meanwhile Ellington has been a good role player. Young gets played form the bench but is a quality starter.
Trip says
I hope the rumors of the Lakers interest in Rondo are just that. It makes no sense to deal for him:
#1) I’m sure the Lakers would have to include a #1 with whatever player flotsam was needed to match contracts. That is an outright bad idea.
#2) Rondo is 29 and would be 30 next year as an unrestricted FA. I’m sure he would want a 4 year deal min to stay. Why eat up your cap space on a player who will only make you a .500 team at best. The Lakers will still miss the playoffs in a loaded West.
#3) Citing #2 above, the likelihood is that Rondo would likely bolt. Meaning he would have cost the Lakers resources that should have been better used elsewhere. Additionally, he would have probably helped the Lakers win 30 games, this year, costing us our top 5 pick.
What is so hard for people to understand about what the Lakers have to do? They are in year two of a three year rebuild. The focus should be to acquire young controllable talent that when combined with a) trades for young talent and b) signings for young talented FAs will give the Lakers an emerging talent base to attract elite FAs in the near future..
Messing with the Rondos of the world will only assure mediocrity for the balance of the decade. The board can debate the reason why we are in this position until the cows come home. The reality we are here and step one in getting back on top is to keep that top 5 pick this year.
R says
Yes totally true, sorry the teams going nowhere until Kobe retires.
This isn’t hating it’s just a fact and just stating what is totally, totally obvious. I think most of us have known this as soon as – if not before – the extension was signed.
I don’t blame Kobe at all, what’s the point of blaming a Lion (an aging one at that) for being a Lion?
To mix metaphors, he’ll give up the reins once they are pried out of his lifeless fingers.
BigCitySid says
I’m believe players around the league pay more attention to what Kobe says about Kobe, than what other players say about Kobe. Last I heard Kobe says:
-“I eat first”.
-“I’d rather retire than be a 20 point scorer”.
Haven’t heard nor seen anything different…yet.
Oldtimer says
Tank you on Lin is not a PG stuff….you may have a dissenting opinion, that’s fine with me. Well, I see him as a potential SG or SF though small?, because he has a knack on perimeter shots while gung-ho on lay ups not sure where he will land. A PG commands respect on players on the court, he initiates offense and knows everybody where they are, when he gets to the post. The opposing team fears when he has the ball. The way I perceived Lin, he penetrates inside, get to the crowded lane and could not extricate himself leading to TO. Comparatively, his total assists are below par compared to the PG of the other team. And then his defense, he stands stiff waiting for forcing through while the whole dam burst in front of him and the ref. says no harm, no foul 🙂
tankyou says
Rondo legit trade rumors make it sound pretty imminent. Can’t imagine the Lakers offer, unless they offered more than what the media is reporting is enough to get him. I pray that’s true, think he’s an awful fit for this team.
Dallas is one of the few teams that I think Rondo as he is currently would help them big time. They have tons of offense and Rondo clearly could help manage all those weapons and make them even better. I think its clear that Rondo’s defense is at best average and his slashing is much worse and his shooting is poor. But he rebounds insanely, has a great handle, and clearly can pass maybe better than anyone still in the NBA. But the Lakers making an offer on Rondo, just makes me ill, that they have no clue what they are doing. Name chasing, rather than trying to fit actually pieces we have and still need.
R, completely agree with your statement.
BigCitySid says
Off topic: ESPN’s Tom Haberstroh just wrote a piece on the Splash Bros. “At some point, we might have to grapple with the fact not only are Curry and Thompson the greatest shooting backcourt ever, but they soon might be the best backcourt in NBA history. Period.” To his credit he did say “might”. I’m not an Insider so I couldn’t read the entire story. Wondering if he compared them to two of the best backcourts I saw: West/Goodrich & Frazier/Monroe. Like Curry/Thompson, no surprise if either scored 30 and each backcourt had a defensive wiz (West & Frazier). In addition, both Clyde & The Pearl were magicians with the rock.
If anyone’s an Insider and wants to share the piece, I’d appreciate it.
rr says
+/- on 12/4:
Boozer 52% -128
Hill 63% -138
Lin 62% -147
Johnson 65% -150
Bryant 73% -155
+/- 12/17
Boozer -142
Hill -203
Lin -152
Johnson -197
Kobe -230
Price and Davis were both above/near zero on 12/4. Today:
Price: -48
Davis -54
So, like I said last week: the Lakers actually have a pretty good bench; the problem is that they have no starting lineup. But against other teams’ benches, they are, as DS suggests, just fine.
Stuart says
Well I saw on ESPN that the Lakers have actually made trade proposals to Boston for Rondo. Personally, I think its a bad idea. Rondo’s age, injury history and FA status make him a bad building block for the future – and let’s face it the Lakers are more than a Rajon Rondo away from competing.
It does make me wonder if this is tied to yesterday’s conversation about revenue and ratings. Rondo would elevate team play in the short term and that may drive up the ratings. Its already a given that Kobe was resigned (at all costs) to retain ratings. Would the FO sacrifice what’s in the best interest of the franchise long term (losing and keeping the top five pick) in exchange for a near term bump in viewership?
That to me is the bigger question. Is the incremental success Rondo brings outweigh the opportunity costs on seeing this rebuild through and focusing on young talent?
Robert says
R: “I think most of us have known this as soon as – if not before – the extension was signed. ” So who offered him and then signed the extension? Did they know?
tankyou: You are pinning KD or any other major FA not coming here on KB. This is not just a Kobe issue.. If we keep ripping through coaches every year or so, keep infighting amongst management, have a terrible record, and a bad roster, why would people want to come here? Kobe retiring does not solve that. Yes we are the Lakers, and we have the banners, and the Pacific Ocean, so if you think that is enough – fine. I think we need complete organizational change.
Oldtimer: “what is their real objective” I have been asking this for 3 years. The answer is less apparent now then it has ever been.
Kobe: There is no guaranty he retires after 2016. Jeanie even said that another extension was possible in the last interview. I hope he does not retire. I want him to be the best ever. He can play until he is past 40. MJ did and Kobe is in even better shape. What if he does not retire? Well – then the Laker FO will be forced to do some actual management. Or perhaps they will do what they did last time. Another whopper 2 year extension, for business reasons and a reward to Kobes. If that scares you – then join me in the quest to rid us of the source of this issue and it is not Kobe.
Dave says
Stuart: …Would the FO sacrifice what’s in the best interest of the franchise long term (losing and keeping the top five pick) in exchange for a near term bump in viewership?
__
In my humble opinion, since the Howard trade, I haven’t seen one basketball decision that seems to be in the best long term interest of the team. I think its safe to say that Jim Buss struggles with a developing a strategic vision – thinking a year or two ahead.
R, correctly noted above that Kobe’s extension closed the door for the Lakers being competitive for those two years. The only remote hope was to sign a home run FA, like Lebron or Melo, this past summer. Once they said no, the Lakers should have cleaned house.
Why keep Kaman, Pau, Meeks, Farmar, Hill and Young when the bottom line is that the Lakers weren’t going to compete this year (or next year anyway). Each of those players had some value – either together or alone, so why not leverage them into useful assets – even if they were 2nd round picks. Yet all were allowed to walk without getting anything in return.
Aaron says
Weird that nobody in the world knows Rondo isn’t a good basketball player anymore after ACL surgery.
Baylor Fan says
One, b/c (explective) Danny Ainge – enough said, no to Rondo.
Baylor Fan says
Best backcourt ever piece pointed out that the great backcourts of yesteryear played the game at a faster pace. If you control for pace, then Curry/Thompson at their current rate are the most prolific scorers of any era. It also highlights the lack of other great players on the team. It is a little hard to see them being as prolific if they had Kareem or Shaq or Wilt callling for the ball.
tankyou says
Oldtimer, by your narrative above of what makes a PG, there are almost no PG’s that currently play in the NBA. Plus, the Lakers then didn’t have a real PG that anyone would “fear” and control the offense since basically Magic Johnson. I’m sure some team is gonna love Lin next year b/c on a fast paced offense he will still do really well. I think the princeton offense days are truly numbered, and teams like ours that almost never shoot corner 3’s won’t go anywhere–unless they have another Shaq like player. Still can’t believe I almost never see our guys shoot corner 3’s. We barely shoot corner 3’s and barely score under the rim the two best shots in basketball. We do rock at long 2’s though.
Rondo/Celtics agreed in principle to go to the Mavs! This is great news for us, him coming hear would basically push off us truly rebuilding for more years after Kobe was done.
Also, Darius mentioned Hill in twitter. I thought there was some loophole where they could basically approve next year’s 9 million early, and then trade him before the Jan 15th date? That’s what I read somewhere anyway.
T. Rogers says
Dallas broke apart a title team in the summer of 2011. Now in the last In six months they picked up Chandler Parsons, brought back Tyson Chandler, and will now have Rajon Rondo. And this to go with Ellis and Dirk. I have to grudgingly tip my hat to Cuban. They have a formidable team with an excellent coach. They are the only team that really put San Antonio on their heals during last season’s playoff run. Now they are even better. I can only shake my head.
tankyou says
T. Rogers, completely agree with you. Dallas played tough last year, they have Monte Ellis playing team ball now instead of gunning/ball hogging. Rondo could amp up their offense even more, which is scary. IF they can play harder D in the playoffs they can make a run.
Dalls is a scary team to play against for sure, they can absolutely crush you some nights just by pure offense. Dirk is still a match-up nightmare for basically every team in the league even at his old (basketball) age.
Trip says
I’m glad it appears Rondo is heading to Dallas and not the Lakers. This gives the Mavs, on paper, a really nice roster.
I was talking with a co-worker and he mentioned that it makes it that much harder for the Lakers to compete. I told them not to worry — the Lakers will be competing in the West in 3 or 4 years. The conference will look significantly different that far into the future. Its completely likely that the Lakers could begin to peak when the current Western Conference elite begin to grow old and slide.
Just another reason why we should go about our rebuild methodically. Its silly to think we can assemble a good enough team overnight to compete in the current West. But if we do this right we could be one of only a handful of Western teams that are ascending when others are descending.
PurpleBlood says
tankyou,
i see what you´re getting at; if that´s the case then props to KD for showinj´ Mamba respect –
Mid-Wilshire says
Darius, excellent analysis as always.
I think there could be a possible (partial) solution to the woes and shortcomings of the Lakers’ starting five which no one has yet mentioned. And that would be the more agressive development of Jordan Clarkson and the possible insertion of Clarkson into the starting 5 later in the year.
Byron seems determined to keep Clarkson on the bench, partly because he’s afraid that, as a rookie, he may not be equal to the task of handling the ball against NBA-level pressure, he may not be able to guard the outstanding PGs in the West (who can?), and and he may be overwhelmed by the prospect of playing alongside Kobe.
But one has to ask the question: would Clarkson really be worse — overall — than Ronnie Price? Clarkson at least seems to have a fearless offensive mind set which Price clearly does not. At 6-5, he has greater size than Price (or Lin, for that matter). But his defense at this point is an unknown. However, at this point in his career, it can certainly be developed.
So, here’s the plan. Continue to start Price and play him for 6 minutes. Substitute Lin and play him for 9-10 minutes (the last 6 minutes of Q1; the first 3-4 minutes of Q2). Then play Clarkson for the final 8-9 minutes of the 2nd Quarter. The 2nd half rotation would be similar although Byron may want to play that by ear. (It’s crucial to select a hot hand for the final 6 minutes of the game.) However, if Price is shooting bricks and offering nothing on offense, then I would not hesitate to have Clarkson start the first 8-9 minutes of Q3.
If Byron were to adopt a plan similar to this, Clarkson could get 16-18 minutes per game over, say, the next 20 games, gain confidence, learn what it’s like to play against world-class competition, and, basically find himself.
By the time we arrive at the last 30-35 games of the year, Clarkson would then be able to step up into a more significant role if warranted.
But unless you follow a plan of this nature, you’ll never know if he’ll be ready (at least not this year).
With Clarkson in the line up, we’d have a more offensive-minded player who could take the pressure off Kobe in a manner that Price cannot, thus possibly helping to reduce the double teams that Kobe receives. Kobe and Clarkson could take turns initiating the offense (in the manner of Goodrich and West). And Clarkson’s length and youth and mobility could be used defensively (hopefully) against some of the tougher PGs in the league.
At the very least, it’s worth a try.
Am I off base here? Or is it time to give Clarkson more burn?
Robert says
Take a look at this. Truly fascinating reading. So many of the same people post here almost 3 years later. This thread was a few months after the VETO and look at our comments. Wow – if we could only see the future. We were all focused on the 2012-2014 seasons as if there was going to be some huge reset at after that point. And of course 2012 saw the Lakers finish with a 621 percentage and a division title, yet we were all complaining like the Lakers were the worst in the league. So maybe we could see the future : )
http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2012/02/24/bits-and-pieces/
Warren Wee Lim says
Rondo is headed to Dallas. For a moment there, I was intrigued with a Bryant/Rondo back court.
The Lakers need to play Jordan Clarkson. Since the 2nd unit is doing so well, then with the 1st unit!
2nd unit: Lin – Ellington – Young – Boozer – Hill
1st unit: Clarkson – Bryant – Johnson – Davis – Sacre
With how negatively Price is impacting the shooting percentages and not really helping the defense, what’s the point of putting him in at all?
Robert says
The Celtics likely now have 8 first round draft picks coming in the next 4 years (including al of their own which is nice when you are a bad team). We likely have 3 and 1 of those comes from the Rockets.
Tra says
If true, I can’t even begin to understand the reasoning behind the FO trying to secure Rondo. To play alongside Kobe? Where’s the knowledge/logic in that?
While I’ve never been the biggest fan of Rondo because of his inability to shoot, due to their roster construction, this is an excellent pickup by the Mavericks. He, along with the off season acquisition of Tyson Chandler, might just be enough to get them by the Spurs – who I still believe will come out of the WC and meet up with Chicago in the finals. Never, in my lifetime of watching the ..A, have I seen such a loaded Western Conference. San An., Memphis, OKC, Dallas, G.S., LAC, Portland and even Houston thus far. I mean, damn!! The WC Playoffs are going to be unbelievable this season. And I hope that every team that’s in it not only enters healthy, but remains at full strength for the duration of playoffs.
Back to the Rondo deal, while it may look good right now, Mark Cuban is taking a huge risk due to the fact that Rondo has stated that he still intends on testing the FA Market this coming off season. Cuban is under the belief that they’ll eventually be able to get Rondo to sign on long term. And that may be true. But my memory is still fresh on how that scenario – albeit, different in so many ways – played out for another organization that we all know and love.
Craig W. says
Mid-Wilshire,
Thanks for the analysis of testing out Jordan Clarkson. You make a lot of sense at this point in the season. What I fear is that Scott just made a lineup change and will be too hard-headed to see the value of any modification of that approach. It is not that I object to Ronnie Price, but he really blunts the Laker attack by the fact that we are going 4 on 5.
IMO the Laker FO made noise about Rondo because 1) Kobe does seem to have a connection and 2) they must appear to the general public to be trying anything at this point in the season (stockholders always seem to want a quick fix). As they looked around they couldn’t offer a competitive deal and felt safe that what they could offer wouldn’t be accepted. Now we can proceed without the Rondo ‘threat’ hanging over us.
Anonymous says
If Rondo was a Laker the FO would just let him walk at the end of the season without getting anything in return.
Alan says
Anonymous: If Rondo was a Laker the FO would just let him walk at the end of the season without getting anything in return.
—
There’s a reason the Celtics have so many draft choices. Ainge would trade his mom for a second round pick.
Turn the Corner says
The problem is that the starters are getting absolutely pasted in the first quarter and the team has to dig their way out every time, despite some very favorable matchups against injured opponents.
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612747/players/advanced/?Period=1&LastNGames=5&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1
1st quarter net ratings:
Ronnie Price -57.6
Wes Johnson -47.0
Ed Davis -40.1
Jordan Hill -39.8
Kobe Bryant -26.6
The other issue is that he ends up playing the Price and Johnson combo more minutes than the Lin and Young combo.
Oldtimer says
There is the solution on Mid Wilshire’s post, turn Clarkson into young Rondo. If we did not get a new PG, then make use of our bench PG. Instead of two PG’s alternating in different quarters, not sure which one is better because of their one dimensional plays, maybe Clarkson could be the third alternative. It is an open competition for the first two, if they don’t improve their game on defense or offense, then Clarkson will provide the slack.
How do you solve the Center, if they moved Jhill in January? Leave it to Sacre to develop. See if it is salvageable when challenged as the only 7 footer around. It could be three years in the making, or maybe never like Antonio Harvey if you recall that name. Anyway, they call it a rebuild by using scrap and turn them into gem someday.
Brian says
Antonio Harvey, after his first game with Nick Van Exel, as a rookie: “I played at Pfeiffer – with a P!” (coached by the great Randy Pfund)
Renato Afonso says
I also agree that Jordan Clarkson should be playing at the expense of Ronnie Price. No knock on Price but he’s not helping us win more games nor does he have a future with the team beyond this year. Test the rookie…
Regarding the Rondo trade, I can only appreciate Cuban’s willingness to improve his team. We’ll see if they miss Brandan Wright (my guess is they will) and how he will fit into their offense. Anyway, isn’t the way that the Mavs tend to “overachieve” a testament to Rick Carlisle’s great coaching ability? I put him on par with Pop on that front. One of the few guys who can swing 10 wins in a season…
Tra says
Am I off base here?
—
No, you are not.
*****
Or is it time to give Clarkson more burn?
—
It definitely is.
Joe Houston says
Lakers have only one NBA starter quality player – Kobe. The 2nd unit has good numbers cos they play against back ups. Jeremy Lin will never be a starting PG in the NBA, he lacks the talent and consistency to be a starting PG.
Robert says
Renato: “One of the few guys who can swing 10 wins in a season…” Yes – that is about right for regular season w’s for top coaches. They also can make a huge difference in the odds that a “top” team has for winning a title. The Spurs would have a far less chance at championships if Pop were not there, just like it was for us with Phil. Now, if you are a 25-30 win team, and you do not have a “top” coach (one of the 2-3 best in the league), the coaching position probably means about 5 wins.
Craig W: “IMO the Laker FO made noise about Rondo ” You are probably right, which means the FO is at least as worried about spin as they are with substance.
Joe Houston: “Lakers have only one NBA starter quality player – Kobe” Of course you are correct. Can you please repeat this at the start of every game thread? : )
Trip says
I listened to Cowherd this morning. He mentioned the Celtics trade of Rondo and how it netted Boston another 1st Round Pick. Then he went on a rant about how elite FA’s won’t go to somewhere to play with a bunch of kids implying that Boston’s strategy (they have at least 8 1st round picks over the next 3 years or so) was flawed.
I will politely disagree with Colin. While its doubtful an elite FA would sign with Boston this Summer it doesn’t mean that in the future, when some of these picks develop, that an elite wouldn’t find them attractive. Colin’s approach was too simplistic. Eight 1st round picks gives the Celtics FO considerable flexibility. They don’t have to keep the picks – they are an asset that can be used to sweeten trades, etc.
In the past, Boston has not been a top landing spot for top tier FA’s. So cap space and assets (picks and young talent) are necessary tools for their rebuilding. The Lakers truly are fortunate, although we have few assets when compared to Boston, we could be on the up swing much sooner. All we need is a decent base on young talent (this year’s top 5 pick would help) and then we can begin to attract FA’s to jump start our development.
Tankyou says
Robert and Joe Houston, completely disagree with you. Jordan Hill has shown he is definitely a quality starter. I think you guys must be talking about top players at their position, rather than merely a decent starter. Hill is better than a lot of other starting C/PF in this league. Kinda agree with the rest of the starters I suppose.
JoeHouston, pretty much seems you are just ripping on Lin. Lin is a great bench player, and a mediocre starter. He is still better than a handful of starters in the league for sure. Do you guys watch some of these other teams? There are lots of guys starting that aren’t that good. I would take Lin over Jennings (detroit) any day of the week. Give Lin the green light to actually shoot over 10 shots a game and run and his stats would be better than Jennings across the board. Kemba Walker, dude is making 12 million a year and he is a pure streak shooter, who can’t hit 40% and is undersized and can’t finish at the rim. But for a team like the Hornets he is part of their “Core”.
I think too many Laker fans are just plain spoiled, and consider anyone that isn’t top 5 at their position to be garbage. Even Wes Johnson who I don’t care for much, is not complete trash at his position compared to some other no-name SF’s that start. I swear some fans just want all-stars at all 5 positions like this is some sort of video game. And until Kobe can start shooting better and being the last in the league at his position defensively, he doesn’t even hit the top 10 in SG’s anymore. His defense is not good, he shoots worse than nearly every guard in the league>>at volume. Kobe still has his moments that he looks like a top 5 player, but unfortunately he can’t maintain that for more than 1 quarter, let alone an entire game anymore.
So I have to watch him shoot as well as Kemba Walker, but with more shots and worse defense and of course an extra 12million b/c of History/business not basketball.
BigCitySid says
-Most know Lakers were never serious about Rondo, just keeping their name out there…and everyone knows Rondo had zero interest in the Lakers.
-Wonder what “the official” reason is for not giving Clarkson Price’s minutes? We’re almost a 1/3 of the season in and going nowhere fast.
-I really would have no problem moving Hill for a “Rondo type” deal.
-Scoring wise, now that Kobe isn’t chasing MJ anymore, do folks change their viewpoint to Kobe staying ahead of LeBron & Durant?
Robert says
Tank: So we do not “completely” disagree. We have Kobe, 3 guys who should not be starting, and I will concede that Hill could start for some. That is still not a very good line up, so the on the court performance and coaching variation is limited to a bar that is not very high.
BCS With regard to Kobe: On the contrary. Only 4597 points to catch Malone ! Looking for Jim/Mitch to re-up Kobe for years 21 + 22. I am thinking Kobe can take a cut, but still needs to get $15-$16. What do you think? : ) Go back and look at that link from 02/2012 I posted above. Nobody saw years 19 + 20 coming at $24 per, in fact there were several statements made about a clean cap in 14
R says
Trip: “In the past, Boston has not been a top landing spot for top tier FA’s. So cap space and assets (picks and young talent) are necessary tools for their rebuilding. The Lakers truly are fortunate, although we have few assets when compared to Boston, we could be on the up swing much sooner. All we need is a decent base on young talent (this year’s top 5 pick would help) and then we can begin to attract FA’s to jump start our development.”
—————————————-
Well, let’s hope so … I’m not so sure that the Lakers are the top destination they’ve been in the past. It’s possible for a team to rise from complete joke to relevant in about four years (see: Warriors) but in their case it required a totally clueless ownership to sell to owners with a clue.
Alan says
Robert: Looking for Jim/Mitch to re-up Kobe for years 21 + 22. I am thinking Kobe can take a cut, but still needs to get $15-$16. What do you think? : ) Go back and look at that link from 02/2012 I posted above. Nobody saw years 19 + 20 coming at $24 per, in fact there were several statements made about a clean cap in 14
___
I hope you are joking about upping Kobe for two more years. Kobe lacks the humility that would allow him to relinquish being the #1 option. By the time he is 38/39 years old he would be a complementary player at best.
Regarding the comment about having the opportunity to have a clean cap in 2014. Well, the Lakers actually did have that chance. The only contract of any size on the books beyond 2014 was Nash’s (which they could have stretched).
The FO could have signed two max FAs this past summer then re-signed Kobe as a last step. That’s why signing the Kobe extension when they did was out of the twilight zone. Not only was it too much money (if you were going to be concerned with paying a repeater tax) but it was signed far too soon (time wise) to give the team a chance to make a legitimate pitch to elite FAs (in this case Lebron and Melo).
That is why the FO comes under so much criticism. They make bone headed decisions that unnecessarily handicap the team. They could have signed Kobe for the exact contract if that’s what they wanted. It just should have been done after signing any combination of: Lebron, Melo, Monroe, Thomas and Stephenson.
jerke says
Best line of the day: “PJ, who always acted like he was the smartest guy in the room – is now acting like the guy who lives in his mom’s basement posting stuff online” – sirius nba radio in reference to PJ vs Barkley twitter war last night and Barkley telling PJ he’s too old to be on twitter lol.
jerke says
@big city – i’ll post the insider best backcourt article later this evening after 6 pacific time keep your eye out for it
rr says
jerke: Phil has a job in the NBA, which puts him one up on D’Antoni.
Clarkson: Like I said in preseason, he should either be getting some burn here or he should be in the DLeague. If Price is part of the stealth tank plan, then there is no reason to let Clarkson ride pine and watch the team go 24-58. If there is no stealth tank plan, then Clarkson should be playing, unless Byron believes that Clarkson is demonstrably worse than Price, in which case Clarkson should be in the DLeague on merit.
T. Rogers says
“I think too many Laker fans are just plain spoiled, and consider anyone that isn’t top 5 at their position to be garbage.”
—
Even worse yet many of us look at players in a vacuum. Instead players should be looked at in various contexts. I remember the Lakers taking players like Ariza and Brown off the scrap heap and turning them into valuable contributors. That’s what happens when you have great coaching and a great system. You can capitalize on what they do well because you put them in a position to be flourish.
For example, Lin is not a bad player. He is not a star, but he is still good. The problem is he is on a team that doesn’t capitalize on what he does well. Lin needs the ball in his hands. And he needs to be in an offense where the ball moves quickly. He needs to bring the ball up fast, dump it off quickly and move to get it back, or shoot the open shot. That’s Lin’s game. He struggles when he tries to prod the defense while dribbling or if he is completely off the ball. In the current Lakers offense the ball is not really in his hands. And the slower pace of the Lakers offense does him no favors. He’s just one example.
With the Lakers season going nowhere fast its time for the team do an about face. There really is no point in maintaining such a Kobe centered style of play. Its not leading them anywhere. Whatever value can be bled from the other players need to be captured. Let some of those other guys really get off. Maybe they do what Dallas did with Brandan Wright. Dallas gave him a chance to shine and in doing so inflated his value. Then they flipped him into a better asset. The same could happen with Hill or Lin. Like every other Laker fan on Earth I’m waiting for Clarkson to get more burn. He’s either a valuable contributor to the Lakers future. Or he is future trade chip, or he is a bust. But the sooner they find out the better. What’s the hold up? The Lakers are not playing to win a title or even make the playoffs. They are playing to gain more assets. The minutes distribution and playing style should reflect that.
TankYou says
Regarding the comments about Kobe and the theoretical “re-upping”. I think some of the Laker fans here just worship Kobe a bit too much. Many people here won’t even really acknowledge that he is in decline already this season. I think next season its only going to get worse, I would say he needs to be the #2 option on a team this year–if we had someone. So next year is going to be just an older slower less explosive version of Kobe than we have this year.
I give Kobe tons of credit, he is a mental monster, but that can’t overcome everything. Him coming back and playing as well as he has is very impressive indeed. But beyond that I think Kobe cannot begin to play 35mpg, those days are well past him. I honestly don’t think he can play at a very high level beyond 20mpg. He is a good enough passer to still facilitate, but his defense is a big detriment at this age even when he is fresh. Its not for lack of effort I’m sure. Someone mentioned Kobe being an “old Lion”. I agree, he still has the mental toughness and in short spurts he can still play better than almost anyone in this league. But the data, and I think the eye test as well that he just can’t play at a really high level for many minutes anymore. IF he played 20mpg, I think he could still dominate quite a bit without having to jack up a ton of bad shots and becoming a defensive liability. Please oh please don’t let him play PG and have him have to chase PG’s. IF Kobe is still playing after this current contract the “15 mill” would just be horrid. Is that what the Lakers have become, just watching one guy chase longevity scoring records, rather than looking to really rebuild the team? There is no “I” in team, but it certainly seems like thats the case at this point.
rr says
2) they must appear to the general public to be trying anything at this point in the season (stockholders always seem to want a quick fix).
—
You often say stuff like this, but I think most Lakers supporters, be they fans or stockholders or some combination thereof, would not have wanted Rondo. He’s not that good anymore, he is not popular here, he would not have helped ratings etc. except for maybe a game or two, he will be a FA next year, and I think almost everybody understands, finally, how bad off the Lakers are and how far away they are in an absolutely stacked West.
So, if you want to talk about the FO, you might consider actually looking at the roster that it has put together and explaining how you think this roster moves the organization forward, as opposed to your usual thing of explaining how smart the FO is but is always forced into appeasing silly fans.
Stuart says
Alan: That is why the FO comes under so much criticism. They make bone headed decisions that unnecessarily handicap the team. They could have signed Kobe for the exact contract if that’s what they wanted. It just should have been done after signing any combination of: Lebron, Melo, Monroe, Thomas and Stephenson.
___
That contract extension is like the gift that keeps on giving. Next Summer, Kobe’s deal will roll off the books. It is at that point in time that the Lakers can embrace the challenge of getting back on the winning track.
Robert says
Alan/Tank: Please go back to the 02/2012 link I posted above and read my posts in that thread. That was 3 years ago and I was talking about blowing the team up and possibly using amnesty on Kobe. Kind of ironic for the Kobe Alert guy right? It probably was the right move and could have been better for Kobes too as he could be with a contender now. As much as I love Kobe, of course I would rather have a contender. I did not sign Kobe to his extension. Jim did. My last “nightmare” post was 2 years ago when I said that my “nightmare” was Dwight leaving and MD staying, which was exactly what happened. Here is my current nightmare. You get your wish and the Lakers do not re-up Kobe for 2017, and the team is still horrible. At least now I have Kobe to root for. What will I have to root for in 2017? Do you think that Jim will put together a winner? Or is it going to be “They make bone headed decisions that unnecessarily handicap the team.” as per Alan’s post. At least now have Kobe. And you want me to sacrifice that for the hope that Jim Buss pulls his head out of his “cap”? As you can see I was hoping for that in 2012 and for 4 seasons I have been soundly disappointed. Rooting for Kobe allows me temporarily relief from the overall disaster that this team is in. I will not give up that relief unless I have some reasonable hope for something better and right now I do not have that hope. I know when I write Kobe Alerts and cheer for Kobe that I sound like some fanboy. Well – those who have been posting here for a while remember when I was an annoying pessimist (I realize I still am annoying) talking of Laker doom on a daily basis. So do not let my Kobe Alert cheer, fool you. This situation is disgraceful and it is the direct result of the departures of Jerry West, Phil Jackson, and Jerry Buss (RIP), and the inability of their multiple successors to fill their shoes.
rr says
Robert,
Good post, but basically, based on what we know now, the future of the Jim Buss FO will probably be decided in June-July 2016 and perhaps June-July 2017. He is on record with the 3-4 years thing, and Jeanie has mentioned it multiple times herself. Jim is also on record multiple times talking about “financial flexibility” and in the recent interview, specifically talked about the ability to “sign two max free agents” in 2016 and/or 2017. I have seen reports that the Lakers were unwilling to talk about lengthy deals with any of the young RFAs or with Lance Stephenson. Presuming that is true, whether one agrees with that play or one does not, it is clear why it was made: to have huge amounts of cap space after Kobe is off the books.
But, I am seeing in this thread that more people are picking up ion the fact that the Lakers may not be a huge FA draw in today’s league, for many reasons, and, of course the Lakers have actually built their title teams through the draft, heists of picks in the pre-Stepien Rule NBA, and by blockbuster trades for star big men. Only Shaq came here as a FA, and that was a different era.
So, if they are actually talking about re-upping Kobe for his age-38 season when July 2016 rolls around, then that probably means that things have gone terribly wrong yet again. The complaining about Kobe’s deal is only going to get louder; I know casual fans who are not even aware that he will again be the NBA’s highest-paid player in 2015-16.
BigCitySid says
-@ Robert, Kobe is on record standing he’d rather retire than be a 20 point scorer. Do you believe by years 21 & 22 he’d be ready to accept a secondary or better yet a tertiary scoring role? If so, I have no problems w/ Kobe on the team, as long as he’s not killing the salary cap (which is the real issue as opposed to the actual $$ amount). However if still in “I eat first” mode, no thanks.
-Pertaining to L. A. being a F. A. destination, of course it is, same as NYC, but obviously there are many other factors to consider. Some just too much too ignore.
Anonimo says
rr + Robert: Makes me wonder if Jim is willingly making himself the fall guy to take some heat off of Kuptchak and so that when he “resigns” in 3-4 years (or sooner), the perception is that the Lakers are now headed in a positive direction.
Tankyou says
BigCity, At least more recently players seem to be trying to leave NY and LA. Of course their huge salary figurehead players both stayed. I really am not sure what the Knicks will get even with Phil running the show, Dolan leaves a big horrible shadow.
In regards to developing talent, its not all about the rooks and draft picks. There are plenty of underutilized mid 20 something players with a lot to prove that can be developed potentially. I would say that even Monte Ellis was developed by the Mavs. Ellis was a notorious ball hog and relenetless gunner before going to Dallas. Yet they helped him pull it together and become a much much better player. That may be what the Lakers need to do as well, develop some really good 2nd/3rd option guys and roleplayers to help attract a big name. I have absolutely no faith that Byron Scott is the Coach to do that, particularly with his Kobe worshipper status. Even when Kobe shoot 30% or misses 7 threes in a row in a game, he still is in there regardless. Nobody else would be out there. There has been some games that Kobe played amazing, but there has been some games he needed to sit the bench. Wayne Ellington is a good all around player, and seems to play pretty good D, its not like they have an utter scrub to fill in for Kobe.
jerke says
Rr, what’s your problem dude – enjoying trolling me w MDA stuff? Sirius nba radio had a bunch of stuff on knicks/pj in relation to the exchange between Barkley/pj last night – and yes its amusing since pj has usually always stayed above that stuff. I would’ve posted the exact same exchange if it had been pop or Stan vangundy etc… the show also had a long discussion on pj’s remarks regarding kobe being up there w mj a couple years back which I was going to post on because they made some comments that were relevant to discussions on this forum and interesting to debate for the readership here but hey since I type the letters P and J consecutively you’ll just find some other reason to bring up MDA yeesh.
rr says
jerke,
You take shots at Phil pretty much every time you bring him up, generally in a sarcastic way, so I was just returning the favor.
And Phil has never been above pointed sound bites/Tweets; he is actually into them. It just looks different now that he is associated with a terrible team.
dodo64 says
Kobe don’t play defense. Why you ask , because he try to steal the ball all the time. He is playing for you know what. Lakers is a very good defense team if you take kobe out, please go back and watch some of the games these year. He use to be.
Jerke says
ah K rr – didn’t realize you were appointed to monitor all my posts and keep me in check. Keep up the good work!
BigCitySid says
-Thanks Jerke, will keep an eye out.
-“Tom Haberstroh takes you inside the numbers to show how Kobe Bryant’s love affair with the contested midrange jumper has burned the Lakers”. Anyone see that video on YouTube?
tankyou says
I suppose I’m one of the few who thinks if this team can overachieve that actually helps us sign some decent players. We want some guys thinking “hmm they did alright, maybe with me and another guy we can make LA a contender again.”
We don’t want guys thinking, “man LA stinks so bad, I do not want to sign up there and pray that by the end of my contract we are making the playoffs.” I think Kobe hurts us big time b/c he is on his last legs of his career, guys can read stat lines and articles. Not many people want to play Robin when Batman barely can throw a good punch without getting winded. I do think Kobe would be a great 2nd/3rd fiddle used in lower minutes to save his body and hopefully improve his shooting. I don’t see how leading the league in FGA’s while shooting less than 40% is going to be attractive to anyone. I honestly don’t think Kobe cares at this point, he’s going out gunning his style w/ the screw everyone else mentality.
But I for one would like to watch this team transform into something decent quickly, otherwise I may as well watch other teams and just watch Re-runs of the 80’s Lakers vs. Boston. I seriously can watch the Magic vs. Bird stuff over and over and still enjoy that stuff.
Jerke says
The article is in moderation just above your post so scroll up when you check in later
Aaron says
Very sad we live in an NBA world where the media doesn’t even know Rondo isn’t a good player anymore. Do a little homework… It’s your job. It’s really twenty seconds out of your day. You look up his advanced stats after his ACL tear and then you point out the obvious. Zack Lowe, Henry Abbott, and Greg Anthony are the only NBA people I can respect.
rr says
ah K rr – didn’t realize you were appointed to monitor all my posts and keep me in check. Keep up the good work!
—
Sure. Will do.
rr says
I think a lot of people here have expressed doubts about the Rondo deal from Dallas’ POV, so it is not as if his weaknesses are a big secret. But many guys, including Lowe, have made some key points about it:
1. To get through the West, Dallas will be dealing with some combo of Conley, Curry, Westbrook, Parker, Paul, and Lillard. Rondo may make a difference defensively in those match-ups.
2. Rondo rebounds very well for a 1, and Dallas has issues on the glass.
3. Chandler is 33; Nowitzki is 37. If Dallas is going to make one more run, the time is right now, and with the competitive ecology of the West, every little edge will matter in post-season.
4. Dallas is a smart organization. This may be a reach, but it also may be that they have seen some things that are not readily visible.
Craig W. says
Aaron, I’m surprised that you would take the media to task for not doing their job. Their job is to drive hits to their websites and they do quite well at that.
Advanced stats help to frame the debate, but you have to see a player in the game to finalize your opinion. IMO, Rondo will do well for the Mavs, but would have been a disaster for the Lakers.
Jerke says
@bigcity – sorry, not allowed to post the insider article apparently – to recap the author uses some advanced stats to make the case that curry/thompson are on pace to be the best backcourt ever (primarily on offensive/defensive efficiency number that he has created thru some complicated algorithms) and tried to do some ranking via combined per and limiting it to backcourts where borh players were chosen as allstars in same season.
Top-20 All-Star backcourt tandems
Season Guard 1 Guard 2 PER Rk WS48 Rk BPM Rk AvgRk
GSW ’15 S. Curry K. Thompson 46.5 1 .476 1 11.9 2 1.3
POR ’91 T. Porter C. Drexler 43.8 4 .444 2 12.8 1 2.3
DET ’08 C. Billups R. Hamilton 41.8 6 .409 3 8.2 5 4.7
PHO ’78 P. Westphal W. Davis 45.9 2 .377 5 5.3 10 5.7
PHO ’79 P. Westphal W. Davis 45.6 3 .373 6 5.4 9 6.0
PHO ’80 P. Westphal W. Davis 41.2 8 .313 12 8.6 4 8.0
NJN ’07 J. Kidd V. Carter 42.4 5 .362 7 5 12 8.0
DET ’06 C. Billups R. Hamilton 41.6 7 .384 4 4.8 13 8.0
PHO ’92 J. Hornacek D. Majerle 36.7 13 .346 9 8.7 3 8.3
POR ’93 T. Porter C. Drexler 37.7 11 .318 11 8.1 6 9.3
DET ’07 C. Billups R. Hamilton 39.4 10 .357 8 5.2 11 9.7
NYK ’75 W. Frazier E. Monroe 37.6 12 .274 16 5.9 7 11.7
LAL ’74 J. West G. Goodrich 40.9 9 .281 15 4.5 14 12.7
PHI ’83 M. Cheeks A. Toney 36.5 14 .324 10 4 16 13.3
BOS ’11 R. Rondo R. Allen 33.5 20 .292 14 5.6 8 14.0
PHO ’81 D. Johnson W. Davis 35.4 15 .311 13 2.7 20 16.0
DET ’90 I. Thomas J. Dumars 34.5 18 .269 17 4.1 15 16.7
DET ’91 I. Thomas J. Dumars 35.4 16 .253 18 3.4 17 17.0
LAL ’98 N. Van Exel E. Jones 40.9 17 .281 19 3.2 18 18.0
IND ’77 D. Buse B. Knight 34.2 19 .240 20 3.1 19 19.3
DET ’93 I. Thomas J. Dumars 33 21 .202 21 1.4 21 21.0
Given that neither player has really accomplished much and GSW has only won 1 playoff series in god knows how long, its sorta a moot point to make – but going by what a backcourt tandem has actually accomplished collectively I don’t know how you don’t have Joe D/Isiah #1 – back to back ‘cships, both finals mvps, multiple allstars, 1st/2nd/3rd team all nba, 1st team all defense for joe and even MJ said he was the best one on one defender he ever played against.
Jerke says
Wow. Y’all make sure you watch the James Johnson nasty dunk on Andre Drummond from the Raps/Det game tonight on highlights.
BigCitySid says
@ Jerke, thanks for your efforts. Truly appreciate the info & your work.