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Preview & Chat: The New York Knickerbockers

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Records: Lakers 10-3 Knicks 3-10
Offensive points per 100 possessions: Lakers 106 (16th in league), Knicks 101.8 (26th in league)
Defensive points per 100 possessions: Lakers 100.8 (5th in league) Knicks 108.4 (21st in league)
Projected Starting Lineups: Lakers: Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant, Ron Artest, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum
Knicks: Chris Duhon, Larry Hughes, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari

What’s In A Name: Two teams with two of the more interesting names in the NBA tonight. Sure, Knickerbocker is a pair of pants usually worn by young boys or flamboyant golfers, but there are other meanings to the name (that make more sense as to how the team got that name), as firefly pointed out in the comments

Knickerbocker was a term used to refer to old Dutch families in New York. The connotation was one of a respectable class and status. It’s actually a touch snobbish.

Gatinho added this.

The Knickerbocker name is also derived from Washington Irving’s collection of short stories where he referred to Diedrich Knickerbocker as a founding father of the Dutch colonies of New York. He is mentioned in the first line of “Rip van Winkle”.

“The following Tale was found among the papers of the late Diedrich Knickerbocker…”

Lakers are the men who worked on the ships (also referred to as Lakers) that populated the lakes of Minnesota, “The Land of 10,000 Lakes”.

The Lakers Coming in: After the last couple of games, there is not a lot more to say other than “keep it up.” With the Knicks, Warriors and Nets on the schedule it is time for Thanksgiving, as we should see some comfortable wins. And you know what that means — Shannon Brown’s spectacular garbage-time dunk show.

There are a couple good Kobe stories worth reading. One from a guy who took some heat around here today but I’ve always liked to read in Matt Moore, and another from a SoCal guy now living back east and working for a little publication called the NY Times.

And if you can’t get enough Kobe, he and Spike Lee are doing a roundtable on Kobe Doin’ Work after the game over at the ESPNZoneLALive.

If you want more, there’s always Ron Artest in his underwear.

The Knicks Coming in: Here’s what I think the 2009-10 Knicks have taught us: It takes more than one season to undo the damage Isaiah Thomas did.

The fastest way to undo the damage would be to get someone — anyone — to take Eddy Curry’s contract off their hands (and books). That’s why you’ll see a fair amount of the new, thinner Curry tonight, he is being showcased. He looked decent scoring 10 points in his first game back but has struggled the last couple games (he is shooting just 40%).

In addition to the weight loss, one thing that is different is that Curry seems to be enthusiastic about playing. The problem is his offensive game — getting the ball in the low post — is not a great fit with the 7-seconds-or-less offense. Plus, the Knicks guards do not make great entry passes, and when they have Curry has fumbled them away like his first name should be Kwame.

The Knicks offense is a lot of ball screens and quick shots. And they have been terrible this year, but like any team they can get hot — they did against the Celtics recently.

The guy carrying the offensive load is Al Harrington, who comes in as the sixth man but often plays the most minutes. He’s been shooting fairly well — true shooting percentage of 55.7% — but he’s probably not the guy you want as your best offensive weapon. Nate Robinson comes in off the bench and provides a spark as well, and then there is David Lee, the hustling forward providing rebounding as well as some points.

The one guy I find interesting to watch is Danilo Gallinari, who is maybe the one guy on the roster really built for D’Antoni’s style of play. He is 6-10 with range and is shooting 60.5% (eFG%) and 44% from three this year. He is taking steps forward but he is on a short leash — D’Antoni is quick to bench him for mistakes. Quicker than any other Knick. I don’t know why that is, but it’s true.

Also check out Toney Douglas, the rookie the Lakers picked then traded to the Knicks last draft. I saw him at Summer League and thought him very mature and making the right plays, something rare for a rookie. He has some game, and while he will never be CP3 he can be a solid guard in this league for years.

Blogs and Links: Mike and the team at Knickerblogger have been at this longer than I have, and I still am a regular on his stat page.

Keys to game: Rule one of playing a D’Antoni team: Do not get sucked into their style. If the Lakers start taking long jumpers early in the clock, this game will stay close.

When the Lakers have the ball. David Lee and Eddy Curry are no match for Gasol and Bynum on the block, and the Lakers need to exploit that. Pounding the ball inside is part of controlling the pace, but bottom line the Lakers need to run their offense and they will get the shots they want.

As for defending the Knicks, Chris Duhon is no Steve Nash. Lee and Harrington love to do the Amare and slip the high pick — meaning they start to set it but then roll to the basket before Duhon uses the pick, and they get the ball back going to the rim. As you would with the Suns, you want to keep the ball in the point guard’s hand and make him the shooter. Don’t let him get the ball to opponents in spots they want it, make them work for their chances.

Where you can watch: This game tips off at 7:30 pm Pacific, on Fox Sports, and on the radio at 710 ESPN.


Reader Interactions

Comments

  2. chibi says

    I tried to get up a post in the last thread but couldn’t beat the clock.

    #11/Gatinho

    I’d always thought of a “Laker” as the kind of freighter used in the Great Lakes region. similarly, the Clippers are named after a kind of boat.

    I wonder what the team had in mind precisely when the chose that name for their franchise.

  3. harold says

    Are we roll-calling Asians? +1 here 😉

    While at it, I’m glad that Cal beat Stanford. Lone bright spot in an otherwise disappointing season.

    This game should be fun, although the Knicks can make a game out of it…

  4. J says

    Harold, I knew Warren was in Asia, but it took a while to get through my thick skull that he was in the P.I. Seeing as I’m a chinese born in the P.I., thought I’d represent for him properly in the first post of the game thread.

  5. Coopersox says

    re: Matt’s suggestion that if the Laker’s stop winning, he’ll stop hating.
    B
    S
    True hatred is eternal: I hated the Bird era C’s, Pitino’s C’s, the McHale’s heroes C’s and any team with a C in their name. And hell is being strapped to a green chair with Heinson and Musburger calling a game on infinite loop.

  6. sT says

    You know what I know about the Warren first post. It was a like two years ago or so, and every single time he just happened to have the first post, the Lakers would win the game that night, it started to be like money in the bank. Now I think he expalined it differently than that a little while ago here, but what I just said is true.

    Go Lakers…

  7. lakerade says

    6. So what you’re saying is that so far it’s been a 2-year Warrentee?

    3. We KEEP the axe!

    Looking past tonight’s game (as a fan, allowed to; the players? hope not), Sunday’s game vs. the Nets will determine if NJ ties the NBA record for most losses to start a season (17), assuming they’re still winless then. Just sayin’.

  9. penston says

    If this was already mentioned, my apologies. Prime Ticket is doing another “Courtside View” telecast tonight. Channel 694 on DirecTV.

  10. Warren Wee Lim says

    LOL thanks guys… like I said, the Lakers do not need me so much this year posting 1st (or you guys covering up for me) as much as we did during the Smush-Cook-Kwame years…

    But yea, the urban legend is true. For some 10+ games that I did post 1st, the Lakers went on to win it. It isn’t that big a sample size but I can proudly say I’m undefeated 😉

    Just a piece of history in FBG too, drrayeye and I made the Gasol trade happen =P Ok now I’m just gloating but its true as well.

  11. Snoopy2006 says

    Ron Artest with the Laker quote of the year until someone (Phil or Odom likely) tops it:

    “No, no, I wasn’t freeballing.”

    Without context, that sounds like the next hot new sport.

  14. The Dude Abides says

    Geez…can the FSN guys be more clueless about why Fish is sometimes criticized on the blogs? Hint: it’s not because of his stats.

  15. nomuskles says

    Galinari is ballin to start the game. Pau is closing pretty well but he’s giving Galinari a smidge too much room respecting the ability to penetrate. Also, Wilson chanlder is severely undersized to guard Pau.

  20. J says

    I think Drew is still getting his full strength back, which is a scary thought. On the lobs, I’ve noticed he doesn’t get as high as he did before he got hurt. Used to be his hand would be almost equal to top of the square.

  21. emh101 says

    Maybe Phil wants to play Bynum more with the second unit so he can be the focus of the offense, where we want him to be more of a blackhole.

  22. PhilAus says

    #20 (emh101): That would be an excellent plan. I personally would love to see Drew with the 2nd unit a little more, although it would work better when Luke is back, given his ability to make good entry passes, which Jordan sometimes seems unwilling/unable to do.

  25. J says

    Bynum and Pau only two who don’t have an assist so far.

    I wonder if Cap will have much of a chance to work with Drew in recognizing and passing out of double teams.

  28. Zephid says

    Shannon Brown, wide open in the corner; Bynum, less than 4 feet away with the ball in post, doesn’t see him; Brown with the palms up, “dude, wth?” motion.

  32. Mimsy says

    Is it just me, or does Andrew need to sit for a little while again? Whenever he gets the call it breaks up our offensive rhythm. He’s not even looking to pass right now.

  33. Misareaux says

    Andrew is a bit of a black-hole right now, and while I believe he’ll improve over time on making the right pass, ignoring or not recognizing the wide open man is inexcusable.

  36. J says

    1-11 in three’s. Way too many attempts against this team and not making them really hurts. Score reflects it too.

  37. joits says

    andrew is a black hole but against this knicks team… uh… he has to be the focal point of the offense when kobe is out. what’s our other option? all we have are shannon brown and farmar throwing up bricks.

  38. Mimsy says

    Against this Knicks team it’s not going to kill us. If we were playing the Celtics or Magic, on the other hand, he’d have been yanked half a quarter ago.

  39. VoR says

    It looks like we can get almost any shot we want, but we are settling for some bad ones. Only a couple of guys looking to make the extra pass.

  41. J says

    I’ve been watching the alternate feed with the baseline angle and no commentary, just the crowd noise and Lawrence announcing. It’s pretty neat, I like it. Closest I’ll ever get to courtside seats. I can understand getting annoyed at someone in front of you blocking the action.

  43. MannyP13 says

    Ok folks… It has been said that although the Celtics beat the Knicks, the relatively closeness of the game domonstrated some critical deficiencies in the Celts. I remember that a few of us who are frequent visitors agreed with such comments.

    If our Lakers lose tonight or provide us with a close win, will we have the same criticism for this team or will we start creating excuses like “they look tired” or “they had an off game”???

  44. emh101 says

    Don’t Patrick O’Neal and the halftime crew know that we have already given Shannon Brown a perfect nickname?

  46. DirtySanchez says

    LA knows they can beat this Knicks team by 40 at home, and their playing like it. Concentration seems to be an afterthought tonight. I

  47. The Dude Abides says

    Great announcing…who was in the lane? They’d rather blab their little story instead of telling us what’s going on.

  48. The Dude Abides says

    To answer the question of why Drew was subbed out early, I think it’s because Phil wanted to match him up against Curry to start the 2nd quarter. And yes, he should have passed to the open guard for the corner three on that one play.

  50. Snoopy2006 says

    Manny – one difference is that the Celtics have been playing that way for a stretch, not just one game. If the Lakers ever go through a similar stretch, the blogosphere explodes with pessimism. Heck, for Lakers fans a ‘bad stretch’ is two lackluster games.

  51. Mimsy says

    @The Dude,
    If you find out, please let them know I would really like them to start talking about what is happening in the game again.

    And the Jim Bean commercial was funny!

  52. The Dude Abides says

    49, 51…just venting…one of my pet peeves. I doubt they’ll tell us who was in the lane, but you never know.

  53. LJAY says

    @25, the only reason Pau is with 0 assist is Ron, he received two great assists from Pau from the post but he was uncapable to convert them into points.

    As for Bynum, right now I don’t think he has the proper mind set to assist form the post. It’s like the corner three is a blind spot for him.

  54. glove32 says

    Pau Gasol had the lane violation on the Fisher FT. I had to check the play by play of the game on ESPN game log

  55. The Dude Abides says

    Hmmm….stupid nickname choices for Shannon. It’s like they don’t even acknowledge his current nickname, although TNT Legs is what Kobe’s called him.

  57. Mimsy says

    Kurt, since you have access to Staples Center, could we convince you to lobby the only true nickname there? 🙂

    ShanWOW!

  60. J says

    Okay, granted Drew’s a bit of a black hole. But what can the staff and the other players do to help him out with that? Hypothetically, if it’s been emphasized that they cut down on the threes and go inside, maybe he’s not looking to pass out that much. When he has the ball, i don’t see a lot of cutters going to the basket.

    If Knicks are going to insist on single covering him, then he should take that shot every single time regardless of someone being open at the arc or not.

  62. Mimsy says

    The only one I remembered is “showtime”. And I’m not sure he’s earned the right to that one yet.

    I had blocked out the Gadget Calf Muscles one… for obvious reasons.

  66. emh101 says

    There were five suggestions:

    1. Go Go Gadget Calf Muscles

    2. Shotime Shannon

    3. TNT Legs

    4. Dunkmaster Flex

    5. Human Pogo Stick

    I felt stupid just typing them out.

  67. Mimsy says

    @emh101,
    They’re also all too long to work as nicknames. A nickname is short, obvious, and easy to remember and say. None of those qualify.

    I think I became slightly more stupid from trying to understand what those were supposed to mean.

  69. j. d. hastings says

    I was glad to see Bynum get a quick hook, then BShaw talking to him for several possessions on the bench. Its a learning process.

    Is Mike D’Antoni just too cheap to buy a new orange tie since he came over from Phoenix? Does he think I can’t tell the difference between NYK orange and PHX orange??

  70. Snoopy2006 says

    The Warriors make history tonight (at least in the last 60 years) – first team since 1951 to win a complete game with only six players.

    Most surprisingly, Don Nelson was not coaching. But his assistants have learned well.

  77. glove32 says

    Lakers on a nice run since trailing 41-40. Playing much better, starting 5 in double figures and Gasol already has 16 rebounds

  78. Mimsy says

    Ookay… the Yahoo Sports box score says we only had 8 players suit up for tonight’s game. Are we doing a sympathy gesture for the Nets, or is it glitchy again? I’m guessing the latter…

  79. J says

    I suppose it was too much to hope that Kobe wasn’t going to play more than 30-31 minutes tonight. He’s going to finish out the third over 30 and you know he’ll be back in the fourth for a few minutes. Maybe even longer if he’s anywhere close to 40 points and wants to gun for that.

  80. J says

    Mimsy, a lot of times Yahoo won’t put up a player until they actually enter the game. Phil’s been keeping a tight rotation. Unusual this early in the season.

  81. harold says

    Kobe and Artest combining for 10 of our 16 turnovers. That’s okay, i guess, since we’re winning and all, but it certainly doesn’t help Kobe’s PER.

  82. Mimsy says

    @J,
    But we have four who have entered the rotation aside from the starters, not just three, that’s why I think it’s glitchy. It’s only listing one single foul for the entire Lakers team as well.

    I switched to the ESPN box score, it at least seems to be running smoothly 🙂

  83. Zephid says

    Curious why Kobe is still in the game with the Lakers up 20 in the 4th. Just leave the Black Hole in the game and we’ll have enough scoring power.

  84. J says

    Mimsy, I thought it was only three until Sasha came in at end of 3rd. He showed up as soon as he checked in. But yeah Yahoo can be glitchy sometimes. STill I prefer them over ESPN, their pages are way too busy with too much stuff constantly trying to reload.

  88. j. d. hastings says

    I love Shannon Brown’s garbage time junk dunks as much as anyone, but I worry that he gets so much garbage time that his fundamentals are shot. He doesn’t defend that well despite what we like to think, and his passing isn’t great. Its like he just gets out there and tries to make the big dunk or 3 and otherwise kind of hurts the team.

    We just don’t notice because its garbage time…

  92. Mimsy says

    The Yahoo page seems to have updated now, to the point where it keeps up nicely. Good! I prefer it to ESPN as well, for the same reasons.

  93. VoR says

    I think this game just goes to show that the Lakers really have an unfair advantage living on the west coast. 😉

  103. harold says

    Kobe needs garbage time to find his 3pt range again.

    … and Bynum gets his assist! he is our new kObe!

  104. J says

    Okay, my spin on this is the bench wanted Kobe to get his 40 against the Knicks. They purposely let the lead slip so he had to come back. He’ll get his 40 and then sit.

    You guys buying this?

  105. Mimsy says

    No.

    Not only do they not play defense, but they are so focussed on their own progress that none of them plays unselfishly.

  110. j. d. hastings says

    Everybody on the bench just treats it as an exhibition where they can work on moves instead of trying to play well.

  111. LJAY says

    1 assit for Bynum, and an assist that shows that he knows how to pass and read from the post, so it’s just that he doesn’t want to…

  112. J says

    So Stu always says that it’s important to win the first 5 minutes of the quarter. Then it’s also important to close a quarter strong by winning the last 3-4 minutes. That means a team can relax for 3 minutes in the middle of every quarter?

  113. jeremyLA24 says

    sorry if somone already mentioned it, but there is an insane amount of travel/carry over calls in this game. I would love to see the numbers but I don’t know who or where you can get stats like that.

  115. Zephid says

    It’s because nobody on the bench can shoot threes consistently, so the opposition just clamps down on the Black Hole and lets Sasha/Jordan/Shannon fling away from distance.

  116. jeremyLA24 says

    112, me and my wife got a text from a “club promoter” last night about Jordan Farmar’s b-day being held at a hollywood club. I.E- your right!

  117. glove32 says

    As soon as Walton is ready to play, Vujacic will be inactive on game day, Sasha has not earned any pt with the way he is playing right now

  119. Mimsy says

    So to sum up, we need Luke Walton back with the bench players just to set an example of good ball movement, passing, and playing as a team?

  122. J says

    Kobe’s going to hit 40 minutes. Ridiculous. He should be getting a ton of rest. I hate how many minutes he’s racking up this early in the season. Understand that Pau was out but it’s still a lot.

  123. LJAY says

    This goes to the clairvoyant minds around here. Can we really make it to the ring with the bench playing like this?

  127. harold says

    Yeah, in the playoffs the bench tightens anyway, so as long as we have Lamar, and a team-oriented Luke, we should be fine.

    It’s just that to get there with our top 6 in tact, we need the bench to finish games that our starters put away, not set the table for a comeback by the other team.

    Maybe it’s just me reacting negatively to the Kobe-press lately, but any of you think that this is because Kobe said something along the lines of “when you come in to the league, you try to make yourself known?” Or at least because Kobe sets an example of “if you are better and work harder you can take any shot?”

    Then again, we do have a lot of guys on the bench who do need to prove themselves, as they aren’t really rock-solid candidates for extensions and re-signing.

  128. emh101 says

    I say it would be very hard to win a Championship with the Lakers’ bench playing this way. Thankfully, it’s only Thanksgiving and not Memorial Day. They still have time to adjust.

  131. james says

    dont worry come playoff time we’ll only need odom, walton and a small combination of farmar and shannon based on matchups

  132. J says

    Farmar and Brown are the keys to a productive bench. If those two can be even average and semi consistent, the leads won’t disappear so quickly. It’ll also allow Kobe and Fish to get a lot more rest.

  133. The Dude Abides says

    Meh…it was the Knicks. I won’t worry about the bench right now. It’s true, though. They do seem to be playing for their stats instead of hitting the open man. Of course, if the opponent is going to pack it in and dare our backup PGs and wings to hit from distance, then the only open men are pretty far from the basket.

  134. Bernie says

    I think I hear hundreds of Laker fans trying to figure out how they can get rid of Sasha via ESPN Trade Machine.

  135. j. d. hastings says

    I think on the bench:

    Shannon buys into the hype we’ve been feeding him. He looks to make these big plays we love, but looks for it at the expense of the all around qualities that will really get him time

    Farmar is more inclined to make plays and play right but can still get caught up in trying to make the spectacular play

    Sasha and Adam Morrison are both desperate to prove they belong on the floor

    Josh Powell is like Shannon Brown where he’s gotten credit for his shooting and now acts like he has a green light perhaps past the reasonable point.

    Mbenga will also try to shoot a lot, but mainly during garbage time. His time during a closer game seems more fluid to me.

    Bynum does the same thing. He lets how his offense is going affect the rest of his game. He wants to be an all star and equates that with scoring. Honestly Kobe got that way too. I think he’ll come around as the season wears on.

    Overall though, you have all these different agendas than Pau, Fisher, Odom, Artest or Kobe. When they do let the lead go, they then struggle to regain the comonality of goals (sounds like something PJ might say) that got them the lead to begin with.

  137. magic says

    With all the criticism of Fish at the beginning of the season it is interesting to see that his play has improved as the season progressed. It may not be great comparatively to other point guards, but his stats and overall hustle is evidently better since the beginning of the season. He did pretty well again tonight with a +/- of 22. The bench guards, not so much and barely breaking 0.

    Fish has been getting props from coaches while the fans continue to bash.

    From the la times:
    In Fisher’s eyes, it’s all about how he feels about his play, how his teammates and coaches respect what he brings every game. “I appreciate the positive, supporting fans,” Fisher said. “The negative comments, I don’t even worry about that.”

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-spw-nba-notes25-2009nov25,0,2275513,full.story

    http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2009/11/los-angeles-lakers-practice-video.html#more

    Something needs to be done about the bench guards if we are to win the ship.

  138. Tej says

    First time posting but 136 made me lol.

    Buyout Sasha’s contract so we don’t have to see his face because no one is going to take him.

  139. kwame a. says

    Anybody see Drew show Fish up in front of the Laker bench. Less than 2 mins into the 3rd quarter, Drew gets benched and then lectured. The thing that stunned me about the play is the way Fish and Kobe looked at Drew. Wish I knew what Drew said/did.

  140. Yusuf says

    The rebounding advantage was great to see. I kno the knicks are undersized but the lakers should always win the rebounding advantage. The turnovers are worrisome but the knicks force
    the most turnovers in the league.

  142. j. d. hastings says

    140- Kwame- I just deleted my recording of the game. I remember Drew ignoring Lee, who gets an easy break, followed by Drew running up the court as Kobe, Pau and someone else stoof back right where they were with a sort of “WTF was that?” stance. PJ immediately calls to LO, who doesn’t look sure if PJ really wants him in before running to the sideline. Then once Drew is on the bench B.Shaw stood talking to him through a couple Knicks possessions. I assumed about defense.

    What did he do to show Fish up?

    The great thing though, is that if he does need to an attitude adjustment, I trust in Kobe Bryant, Derek Fisher, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Phil Jackson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Brian Shaw, etc. to get through to him.

  143. j. d. hastings says

    From Eric Pincus:
    – Bynum said he knew exactly why Jackson pulled him early in the third quarter. Andrew’s job is to help on the guards on defensive rotations but he said he was sick of David Lee getting dunk. On two possessions in a row he just bodied up Lee – which wasn’t his assignment. Yes Lee is his man – but he’s got to leave him and help the guard and trust that another Laker will rotate to David.

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?STORY_ID=14461

  144. Warren Wee Lim says

    136 and 140…

    Sasha Vujacic’s value is about as low as it can be right now… buying him out just worsens the situation because you will no longer be able to trade him.

    Newsflash, once he is bought out, he could very well go to a contending team as well.

    Best way to go is to find a team willing to suck his salary for a TPE or atleast an expiring contract.