I’m still recovering from my Thanksgiving dinner, so I’m going to keep this short and sweet. The Lakers are back in action tonight after losing to the Grizzlies on Wednesday, looking to get back in the win column against a team that just might be as bad as they are. The Timberwolves come into this game with the same amount of wins as the Lakers (3), but with two less losses (10). They also come in minus Ricky Rubio and Kevin Martin, both out with injury. This has put the Lakers in the “favorite” position for the first time all season with the Wolves visiting Staples tonight.
In all honesty, if the Lakers cannot find a way to win this game, they might truly be the second worst team in the league behind the 76ers. Kobe can talk all he wants about the team being better than their record, but as Bill Parcells often said, you are what your record says you are. And if that includes losses to other similarly bad teams when playing at home, you might actually be worse than your record says you are. If the Lakers want to actually, you know, start to turn some things around tonight would be a prime opportunity to do so.
To get it done, the Lakers must find a way to play fast but not allow themselves to get sloppy where the athletes on the Wolves have a chance to get out in the open floor and get easy baskets. The Wolves already like to play fast (6th fastest pace in the league), but if they are allowed to get out in the open floor via turnovers and off long rebounds, Andrew Wiggins, Thad Young, Gorgui Dieng, Anthony Bennett, and Mo Williams can get the types of easy baskets that can boost what is, from an efficiency standpoint, a poor attack. In other words, Kobe and Jeremy Lin need to cut out the unnecessary risks via forced pocket passes and leaving their feet without a plan and play a more controlled game.
Defensively, the Lakers’ focus needs to be on slowing Mo Williams at the point of attack and collapsing the paint on Wiggins when he attacks the rim and tries to post up. Williams has long been a player who seems to play his best ball against the Lakers, so it should not be a surprise if he opens up looking to be aggressive and trying to get his own. As for Wiggins, with Rubio, Martin, and Pekovic all out recently the #1 overall pick has been looking for his own shot more and more and flashing some of the skill that had scouts drooling over him. The athleticism is a given, but as he starts to channel that into productive basketball plays defenses will need to account for him. The Lakers would be wise to not allow him the types of easy looks that get any player going.
All in all, this is a game the Lakers really should not lose. The Wolves are just as (if not more) banged up as the Lakers and are just off a day of travel to begin a road trip. They are not particularly good on either end of the ball and, while they do have some nice pieces, simply aren’t a very good team right now. Of course, the same is true about the Lakers, but they are the team at home and not coming off any travel and only playing a couple of games over the last week. It really is time to get it done.
Where you can watch: 7:30pm start time on TWC Sportsnet. Also listen on ESPN Radio 710AM.
pat oslon says
I am cautiously optimistic.
Aaron says
These are the must lose games we will look back on at the end of the season. It’s not just the games at the end of the year against the Spurs… These are the kind of games that will keep our draft pick or make this a wasted year.
Reggie Hammond says
Let’s go wolves!
Darius Soriano says
Give it a rest already, Aaron. Reggie, you can take your comment somewhere else too. If the team loses, they lose. But if you want to actively root for losses, go to a site from the opponents’ team & do it there. I won’t miss you & you’d save me the time of jumping in the comments here to tell you to go away.
pat oslon says
Darius, I could not have said it better.
Thanks & GO LAKERS!
rr says
I get what Darius is saying…but unfortunately, I kind of think that Minnesota will beat the Lakers. They do have some athletes. Anthony Bennett has worked on his body some and is looking much more like a player. Zach LaVine so far is looking like he could have used another year at UCLA, and the Bruins could certainly use him…
Fern says
TY Darius!!!!!! Im sick and tired of those sorts of comments thats the main reason i barely comment anymore i disagree with Ko’s comments a lot for example but i know he wants the team to win and i respect that , i understand rooting for the pick and all that crap but everybody with an iota of basketball knowledge know that picks are a crap shoot, it could go either way and we all know the Lakers dont built thru the draft, personally i dont care either way if we have the pick or not, i find it extremely disgusting to root for losses it’s an alien concept to me. Like Darius said, take your crap elsewhere. I know what this team is and while they are not very good i never, ever will root for losses. Go and root for the Sixers. Just go away…
Ko says
I was looking forward to tonight’s game. Please let me have my moments without wishing for a loss.
Tim says
Kobe picks the rookie Wiggins pocket and gets the reverse slam dunk.
Fern says
Kobe taking Wiggins to school. Sweet!!!
Ko says
Lakers bench is just terrible. 2 points in 5 minutes. Mostly D leaguers.
Ko says
I liked Zack and thought he would be good. Think Lakers could use him?
Chearn says
What happened to Earl Clark? I thought he’d be here for this game.
LKK says
Sacre takes a regular beating on this site, but I’ll give him credit for some decent offensive moves. You can see he’s put in some work.
rr says
Ko,
This has been by far LaVine’s best game so far as a pro–playing against the Lakers will lead to that. These are the two worst defensive teams in basketball by DRTG.
LKK says
Kobe doing some nice passing tonight, but his teammates aren’t converting. He’s also setting solid screens that are creating scoring opportunities.
Tim says
WOW! Lin with the half court pass the Wes Johnson for the slam dunk plus the and 1.
Ko says
Between Williams and Levin one has to question Lin on D.
It’s terrible
Anonymous says
Hate to say this but Kobe looks really slow and really old out there. Passing off also.
AusPhil says
LaVine is seeing the ring like a hula hoop. Kid just can’t miss.
Ko says
Lin out of control or zero on defense. Really surprised on how poor is D is.
Ko says
And Scott leaves Nick in instead of Davis on defense. I take it all back Scott is worse then MDA
Ko says
Wake the crap up coach. Kobe is shooting under 20% last 2 minutes this year and has missed every last shot. He is the reason they lose every close game and this coach is clueless. Kobe is a 35% shooter yet you keep throwing him the ball. LOSER
Tim says
Lakers let this one get away, just could not close out the Timberwolves. Defense need tons of work. Tough loss for the Lakers.
LKK says
I think this is what’s known as rock bottom.
Aaron says
Darius,
It is your site but I think you’re underestimating your readers on here. If you pretend wins are better than losses I think you will lose some intellectual credibility. I may be wrong though. Wins in 2010 helped our odds of winning a championship as soon as possible. Losses in 2015 help our odds of winning a championshops as soon as possible. Rooting for wins in 2010 is basically the same thing as rooting for losses in 2015.
Re: Kobe
This was a killer for Kobe. This is a shot he would make 80 percent of the time a decade ago to win the game. I don’t think I’m inflating that percentgae much. That’s how good he was at making uncontested shots no matter from what distance especially in the clutch moments.
lakafan says
Shout out to the coach for another game of awesome substitutions. Having swaggy defend Thad young paid off with another L. Glad he doesn’t know you can play your best defenders when trying to get a stop!
pat oslon says
Losing may not affect some fans but losing breeds losing among team mates. A losing attitude only compounds a bad situation, is hard to overcome and can carry-over for years. Wins are always better than losses; no athlete loses on purpose. With the talent level on this team and the way they play you don’t have to pull for them to lose; they will lose because they are not very good and play NO DEFENSE. Pull for your team to win, don’t disrespect the players because they are really doing their best. Let the chips fall where they may, it’s quite obvious that we are going to be in the lottery. The top 5 pick is in the bag without even willfully tanking.
Darius Soriano says
Wait. Aaron is lecturing me on intellectual credibility? Pot, meet kettle.
Reggie Hammond says
Darius this team sucks I’m 100% rooting for losses this year to retain our pick as Aaron said very correctly rooting for losses is what any future minded fan should be doing…fern it is a crap shoot but at this point it’s better to crap out with a chance than not even play…I love the lakers & the only way to rebuild for sure since there has been bad luck with free agents seemingly not wanting to be here is via the draft it’s your website but I think a difference in opinion on how we get the results we both desire (winning basketball) is fine & a fun dynamic for discussion…relax it’s stressful & annoying watching a terrible coach & an obviously aging Kobe cost us games so why not root for the lakers current game plan and reality…losing
Archon says
I’ve held out for 16 games but now I’m officially on the lets tank bandwagon. Only a really bad basketball team that’s not coached well could lose to Minnesota the way they did.
At this point the Lakers should play the young guys and look to trade anyone of value (Hill, maybe Lin)
Ko says
Lakafan
Thanks nice to see someone other then me sees the bad coaching. One time out left. Score tied and you leave Davis on the bench and have Nuck at power forward aganist TYoung? Shoukd fired for that alone!
It’s not like Nick is going to shoot any way with Kobe clanking every last shot this year.
Yea this is a poor team but Bryon has turned it into the worst in Laker history. No wonder they waited so long to hire him. They coukdn’t find anyone worse to guarentee a botten 3 finish.
What a poorly run franchise.
Anon says
Seriously if you’re rooting for losses, just go to Silver Screen & Roll. You’ll fit right in. Then you can join the tank frenzy:
OUR TANK IS STRONGZZ
TANK COMMANDER BYRON!!!
JAHILL!!!!!!! RINGZzzzzzzz
It makes me sick to be a Lakers fan. Keep this site pure.
Archon says
Kobe wasn’t great in the clutch again tonight but he wasn’t playing hero ball either, other guys missed a lot of open shots.
Byron Scott needs to go back to the drawing board on 4th quarter rotations. I’d rather Booz out there over Wes Johnson and Hill just isn’t very good at the center spot especially on defense, I’d rather Davis in to close games.
Reggie Hammond says
Anon what is pure to you? A bunch of guys agreeing about everything? Those of us that are rooting for a loss are in the minority anyway it should be able to make for interesting dialogues…not understanding why you are so quick to be upset on a difference of opinions on how to resurface this sunken ship that is our lakers…at least give an argument not l337 speak taunts
nimble says
A phantom foul on NY.Thank you refs.
bleedpurplegold says
Cant understand u guys…kobe missed the last secound shot ok, but made the one to tie the game, and if the refs wouldnt have called a joke of a foul on nick, this game would have gone inzo ot, just my opinion…..also, i agree that done 5 years ago he would’ve made it, but at 36, a straight away turn around pull up three within 2 secounds to get it off is perhaps the most difficult shot to make….i give kobe props for an efficent game on O….the problem tonight, as always, was giving up 120 (!!!!!!!!) To the wolves, which is a joke….also 15min for ed davis is a pure joke, i am deeply sorry for all of us having to endure this horrific coaching of b-scott…i am bust thankfull that it really doesnt matter anyway at this point!!!
Renato Afonso says
Scott is not adapting to circumstances at all… I fail to understand why would a professional coach do that. I wish we hired Brad Stevens. At least the leprechauns share the ball and actually try to play defense…
BigCitySid says
-“Frustration and anger is going through my head right now,” coach Byron Scott said. “We weren’t ready to play. There was a lack of focus. We looked at them like they were inferior to us.
“You can’t play good, hard-nosed basketball one night, then look at the opponent the next night and say, ‘Oh, we have an easy one.’ It doesn’t work that way in this sport.”
Really? The Lakers were under the impression this would be an easy one?
-It’s taken a month of ball, but finally just about everyone now sees what a few of us realized as soon as it happened…the suicidal decision the FO made (death via salary cap strangulation) is the main reason they have the personnel they currently have. Now that the first shoe has dropped, how long before the next one? How long before fans decide this team isn’t worth viewing? Either at Staples or on the tube?
-For those looking towards draft choices…the East has a lot (5 or 6) of bad teams. Combined w/ the T ‘Wolves & Lakers, that’s seven or eight teams.
-Next up: Toronto, where the Lakers will have an excellent opportunity to once again match the worst start in franchise history, 3-14, w/ their ’57-’58 counterparts.
16 down…66 to go.
Agree says
I actually thought this was one of Kobe’s best games overall. He’s defense is still blah, but so was Lin’s. I think it was a very poor decision to only play Lin a couple minutes the entire 4th quarter, since clearly he was rocking it on offense both personally and getting guys easy looks/dunks. It’s not like Ellington is a defensive stopper, so best to try and out-offense the other team. Offense is clearly the strength of this roster, not defense. So sure they could play better defense, but they need to get it through their heads their best chance is to rebound well, score a lot and work on covering the 3pt line better.
I blame this loss on Scott yet again. With Lin in at the end of the game, they would have had a better chance. The Laker’s offense was looking like crap in the 4th yet again. Scott just needs to understand what most observers do, they aren’t going to win much, and when they do win it will because of some great offense, not b/c of great defense. This team can rebound though, so defensive rebounding is still something they are pretty good at.
If Kobe and Lin continue to play like this with a more efficient, less chucking up shots Kobe then they will hang in there with lots of teams even with poor defense. Just “stressing defense” or focusing on the team as IF their defense is merely some sort of psychology problem, rather than a physical one. Until they play their best defensive player MORE, then all Byron Scott’s talk is just lies and empty rhetoric. Ed Davis barely plays, I know he hacks, but still the dude is a true defensive presence, basically the only defensive presence. Ellington/Price are decent but nothing special defensively. Swaggy is not impressing me with his defense. I think he may have peaked under the MDA run and gun. Every game that goes by, I dislike Coach Scott’s “strategy” more and more. I never thought he was a good coach, and his record suggests this. His teams defense pretty much stink everywhere he goes, beyond a couple years.
Anyway, time for win number 4 Sunday. Maybe they will start playing Lin 35 mins to keep the offense clicking, and play Ed Davis more than Boozer. Hill I really think needs traded in January, his rebounding and set-shots can be replaced and he provides ZERO rim protection.
Anonymous says
Missed the game but saw Davis had 10 rebounds in only 14 minutes. So still wondering why he’s not getting more minutes.
Tough loss and a tough year.
Aaron says
And If we didn’t have a draft pick at the end of the season, for me every night would be … Pot meet pipe
Last nights loss was akin to beating the Celtics in a 2010 regular season game.
pat oslon says
We are not tanking; we have already TANKED!
THIS TEAM WAS BUILT TO LOSE IN THE OFF-SEASON.
May as well put this one behind us & move on to the next game.
Chearn says
First Kobe is a ball hogging old star that prevents the team from their due glory of a record of 6-78. Thereby cementing a top draft pick, i.e., Bennet, Oden, Michael-Kidd Gilchrist and Wiggins. I can’t wait to read this board when the Lakers make a selection and players below their pick turn into basketball studs. It happens every draft so get ready.
Last night the entire team played excellent basketball with multiple players in double digits, but that is merely one element of basketball. This team as constituted has one defensive player, and that’s split between three players. Kobe has the defensive IQ but not the legs, Wes Johnson has the legs but not the mindset or IQ of a defender, and Ed Davis does not have a reputation as a great defender or a basketball player at this juncture. That consists of one defender between them. Now can one person defend five players regardless the scheme a coach devises? Never, not a 1-2-2 zone, not a 1-3-1 zone, not a man zone, not a diamond and 1 zone, not a full-court trapping press, not a man-to-man trap, and not a straight up man-to-man defense.
Yet again, the Lakers personnel is not fit to the coach’s actual strategy. Scot was in and around the Lakers all year prior to being chosen as the coach. So why didn’t the Lakers allow him to have a say in the players or the draft pick (maybe they did and this assemblage is the best they could do). During the season, the team has limited time to work on every aspect of the game that’s why you’ll see advancement in series of games throughout the season. Therein lies the problem with hiring a coach weeks before training camp he can’t even send emails, or texts to players to report to them to be ready for offense or defense. Look at Kelly he’s out with a hamstring problem because he was not prepared for training camp, Nick was injured in training camp trying to implement the coach’s strategy. One advantage to having a coach in place for reoccurring years is the players know what to expect. Please do not diminish top-down continuity as a team’s strategy.
I see team development, and for that I am happy. Losing close games are the worst, but the game was not lost on a last second shot any more than a game is lost on a missed free throw. A game is lost on a myriad of missed defensive assignments, missed shots, and miscommunication that culminated in the loss.
___________
Pat Olson-“Losing may not affect some fans but losing breeds losing among teammates. A losing attitude only compounds a bad situation, is hard to overcome and can carry-over for years.”
Excellent observation! This is why teams remain in the cellar even with top draft picks year-after-year. Losing permeates the team culture and is challenging to vanquish.
Robert says
Aaron/Reggie: I agree with Darius on this. Not that getting the pick is not important and “logical”, of course it is. It is more important than relatively meaningless wins that will get us into 14th place. That said, it is not necessary to “openly” root for losses “on a Laker site”. You can root for whatever you want of course, and you can “discuss” tanking here, but just don’t openly root for losses.
Tanking: We did do a “managerial” tank, because the team obviously could have been better in the short run. That said, I refuse to believe that Byron and/or the players are doing anything other than trying to win. Anything else brings game integrity into it. We are just a bad team and we have also made some bad plays causing us to lose a couple extra games. This will be the same next year, but that will not mean that many on this board and others will not spend the summer saying that they are hopeful and that the Lakers “could make the playoffs”. While I will not be one of them – I understand that hope springs eternal.
Scott/Kobe: Everyone including me has favorite targets to blame stuff on. What gets me is that some actually think that they have the single answer and that they are justified in brow beating these two nightly as if it will make a difference, and as if Byron and Kobe tweaking what they do will change everything. Guess what – it won’t and they won’t. 50 games from now, people will still be complaining about Kobe’s shot selection and minutes. They will also be complaining about Scott’s tough love and his defensive sermons without substance. It is who these two are. Neither is changing their personality. The Lakers knew what they were getting when they signed them.
Anon: You are correct about SSR. They have group think over there. A quick summary: The Buss Family is phenomenal and does no wrong; Mitch is a “ninja”; MD is a genius, Byron is an idiot; Phil is over rated; Magic and all of our legends should all not say anything; and of course as you pointed out – The Tank Rolls On. Say anything to the contrary and you are attacked and then banned. So you are correct but so is Reggie about different opinions.
Differing Opinions: Of course we do not want everyone to agree – and we don’t : ) I am as hard headed as the next guy – perhaps more, but at least I try to see the other side. What I would like people to do is to see other aspects of what they are saying. Kobe’s minutes and shot selection are largely Scott’s fault. Scott’s personality and coaching style is what it is, so if you don’t like it, then much blame goes to Jim – he picked Brown and MD also (rr has made this point in the past. And you can’t go into every game blaming coaches and players and not realize that this is roster. We are going to be lucky to win 20-25 games this year and the bulk of that is due to roster, it is not due to the in game decisions of Byron and Kobe. Their stuff might change the record by about 5 games. The other 57 losses are going to have to be blamed elsewhere.
Aaron says
Robert,
The heart wants what it wants. I’m a Lakers fan so my heart wants what’s best for the Lakers. I want championships. Some people want wins over rings and that’s fine. Everyone is different.
rr says
Good post, Robert. Couple of points:
1. Kobe went 10/18 from the floor and the Lakers had five guys score 15 or more points…and they lost anyway, because they let the team rated 23rd in ORTG shoot 57% from the floor and score 120 points. The main reason that this team cannot compete is that it simply has a lot of bad/very bad defensive players. And that was clear before they had played a game. Kobe jacking up a ton of shots when the team is losing by double digits isn’t fun, but it is simply not the the main reason that the team is bad.
2. People who are too young to remember Showtime need to realize that Byron got a lot of his ideas about how to coach from Pat Riley. Riley was never known as a tactical wizard, and was always very big on toughness, manhood, etc. This past off-season, he tried to use that as a way to get LeBron James to stay in Miami, framing the issue in terms of “guts.”
So…as I said to Robert in an email the other day, and as he notes correctly here, Byron and Kobe were and are very known quantities. Byron has a long track record of putting his O in the hands of his stars and not being that creative as an O coach, a long track record of spotty defensive teams, and is always going to be a tough love/man up guy. Therefore, people who are hammering on Byron should IMO focus their frustration on the guys who hired him. They could have hired a guy like Quin Snyder or someone similar instead. They chose not to.
Tanking/rooting for losses: Everyone understands, intellectually, where the team is, but I would compare tanking to needing major surgery. You may know it’s the best thing for long-term health, but it is IMO nothing to get happy about or openly root for on a Lakers site.
BigCitySid says
Good points Robert…and I agree. One very obvious point being left out in my humble opinion. THIS is why Kobe & the FO agreed to the big bucks. Both knew team wouldn’t be relevant title wise, heck, post season wise, for the next two years. So Kobe gets $$’s to stay and chase scoring title, and Lakers get to sign TWC contract.
Plan is working as constructed….except they didn’t think things would be this bad. Just like Dr Frankenstein, they have created something so unnatural everybody is taking big hits. Legacies are being affected.
rr says
Some people want wins over rings and that’s fine.
—
If there were a very clear path from here to a parade, people would be more on your team on this. If, for example, this year’s draft included Kareem, Shaq, LeBron, and Duncan, and there was no lottery–just a number of losses system–then everybody would be rooting for losses.
As it is? You are simply talking about improving the odds of getting Karl-Anthony Towns or Emmanuel Mudiay, as if it doing that means that Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis will be dying to sign here. And, as I pointed out to you a couple of weeks ago, the Lakers have never actually built a champion the way that you are proposing they do now. I know the counterargument already–that is how it is done in today’s NBA. But the stridency of your position shows a lack of understanding of both the history of the Lakers and of the history of NBA free agency.
There is also the question of sensibilities–the idea of time and place. People don’t really want to actively root for losses on a game thread, anymore than they want to do that when they go to Staples. That doesn’t mean that they don’t want the team to to be successful.
rr says
Caveat: in fairness to Aaron, I get that his intensity about this is in part because he doesn’t want the team to lose the pick entirely. The Lakers need to finish with the second-worst record (presuming the 76ers have the worst record) to guarantee themselves a Top 5 pick.
But if you look at the other teams with similar records–Detroit, Charlotte, New York, Utah, Oklahoma City*, Minnesota–the Lakers are probably worse than any of them, and they are in the West.
*special case
agree says
I’m in agreement with rr. I for one want wins, championships are a bonus that Laker fans got spoiled with for a long time. Just b/c the Lakers won a lot in the past, doesn’t mean that it will. I think the draft luck path is a dead end. The lakers would do better drawing players with money and big city life. A few basic no-name rookies or guys with “potential” that often means they are mediocre at best–doesn’t draw big name talent. Going to a perennial losing team doesn’t seem to be a draw to any of the superstars either.
As a fan, I like competitive games, last minute wins, basically entertainment. During a good season where they don’t win championships–I still enjoy the game. It’s not like I sit around waiting with bated breath for 9months hoping for a big ending, not caring about the journey. I would say that odds are the Lakers don’t win another championship for twenty years. If you remove the irrationality that Laker’s magically will win b/c of their past. Most fans have to wait decades or lifetimes even to see there team make the finals–let alone win it. Many fans here may not live to see the Lakers win another championship. So I make comments in regards to the present reality, how I think to best make this team we have now more competitive. Not by trades, or “blaming Kobe”. I want Kobe to play more efficiently to help them win. Sure if he shoots 40 shots in a night and they get blown out, its on him. Especially now that he is basically an offense only guy, with little positive impact on the defensive end.
That pack of number one draft picks that beat us last night, they likely won’t be making it to the championship in another decade either. The future is just your imagination as a fan, focus on the present. For me this year its about seeing how much they can over-achieve. Its not like they have been dealt a good hand, even having Kelly gone is a big hit. He’s a guy that plays good positional D and can truly help spread the floor. Of course Nash, Swaggy, Randle blah blah blah. We never got a chance to see this team for real. But let’s see if Davis/LIn can play well this year and get us a few wins and Kobe can get back to shooting around 45% again.
Quin says
I’m not so sure Lin’s defense was so horrible. We all watched the game. We were upset when Lavine made shots, but I can’t say Lin was doing anything particularly poorly. On any given night, guards get a foot of space all the time. Lavine was just having one of those nights where he didn’t miss. He made shots behind picks. He made shots with Lin in his face. We all saw it. I mean, what do you want him to do differently?
As far as transition defense, I don’t understand. If there’s a 3 on 1 or a 2 on 1 … who’s the 1? Jeremy Lin. I understand that’s his job as a point guard, but every time? So we all get to see Lin try to guard 2 or 3 guys running the court while everyone else is lagging, and it looks bad for Lin, lol.
Agree says
Quin, I agree with you in regards to Lin. His defense I would say was average, but at times he was certainly just made to look bad purely b/c his guy was lighting it up. Point guards get a ton of flack for “bad defense” even though they have to run around usually more than anyone and they get blindside picked all the time. A big difference then many bigs who get to stand around quite a bit, especially in the modern No-post up NBA. I see so few post-ups anymore used by any teams. So a lot of bigs get to play basically a match-up zone, unless they are covering a “stretch” big.
The problem for the Lakers is that their bigs besides Davis, stink at contesting shots. We have literally no presence in our starting unit, no one is afraid of Boozer–he is more likely to hack you than jump up and block you. Seriously, Boozer does a fair job for a guy that looks like he has cement in his feet. I seriously think I have a higher vert than he does 🙂
Anonymous says
I hear the complaints about some of Scott’s decisions. I just wonder if it is that big a deal in the long run. Pat above is right. This team was built to lose. I’d say 57 losses are already baked into the cake. Better coaching could take that number down to about 52 losses. Not much better.
The fact they were in position to lose this game says everything we need to know. Not just about Byron but the ones who put this team together. I’m not on team tank. But it’s happening anyway. This team is just not built to win.
T Rogers says
The anonymous post regarding the team being built to lose is mine.
DonFord says
“Rooting for Losses” – it’s not a black or white thing.
It’s silly to come onto this blog and say “yay, I hope they lose!!!” But it makes sense to root for the Lakers to make great plays, to play a good game, to advance the development of the younger guys … and to incidentally end up with fewer points than the other team.
It’s easy for us commenters to fall into opposing camps: tankers v. non-tankers …. improve via draft v. improve via free agency.
But most of us know that life lies in the gray areas.
Would love to see Lakers wins and great games this year … but not at the expense of the top 5 pick. Would love to see the Lakers improve next year … by draft AND by free agency. These things aren’t mutually exclusive and we’re all on the same FB&G team, right?
pat oslon says
Of course we as fans want our ice cream & cake too (win plus keep the pick). But as DF stated there are gray areas indeed. We are all torn between many different trains of thought. We all want whats best for the team. However it’s all just opinions & everybody is entitled to their own for whatever reasoning they use. That being said there are no simple solutions (as in tank vs non-tank). There are many more factors that will come to play in the future. The only thing, we as fans can do is hope & speculate. The team’s ultimate fate will not be affected by any of our opinions, wants or views. To those who want to win: keep the faith but we won’t win many. For those who want to tank: tank on; but you won’t have to wish too hard because we are going to lose and lose big this season plus keep the top pick. Fact of the matter is that we are not a good team anyway.
I pull for the team and players out of respect for them personally, but heck yea, I don’t want PHX to get the pick out of general principle. At least we all have the Lakers best interest in our hearts and I can respect that too.
Gray areas indeed!
rr says
Well, to extend my major surgery analogy, I think coming here to a game thread and openly rooting for a loss is sort of like going into the operating room and yelling, “Cut him open! Cut him open!”
Along those lines, I like Sid’s Frankenstein analogy–I used it myself in preseason and I think I have seen it elsewhere. That may well be what is going on, but paying Kobe Bryant 48.5M as part of a tanking plan is a little, well, ghoulish.
Robert says
Nobody wants to lose the pick, and yes we now know the team is built to lose (however – there was actual debate on this during the summer). I like the rr surgery comparison. OK so we know we need the surgery, but it is a little annoying to openly root for it in the operating room. However another aspect of this is to determine how we came down with the ailment? Was it heredity or behavior? Since the genes came from Jerry Buss, I am guessing this is not heredity, and it is a condition caused by the recent Laker behavior. And the surgery will not work if the behavior does not change.
Agree: Even though I am not a tank commander, I am a championship or bust guy. I would rather go 0-82 for 8 years and win 2 titles, then to be 41-41 for an entire decade (and yes Aaron this does mean I agree with you on much – as I have said in the past).
BCS: I like the way we can discuss KB even though we are on opposite sides of the issue. I do not think KB’s legacy will be tarnished MJ’s was not by his time with the Wizards. Also, I think you could be correct with regard to the FO. However, I do not think that Kobe was complicit in this. Kobe actually feels that he could go out with 4 sub-par teammates and single handedly get us to the playoffs. He is not correct about this (now), but he does feel this way and he always has. It is part of what makes him Kobe.
George Best: In the last thread, you were stating that you were rooting for Kobe to retire at the end of this year. I of course do not share this view, however you bring up an interesting point for everyone to ponder. Let’s say the Lakers finish 25-57 this year (I know that could be optimistic). Kobe will have long since gone by MJ, and Malone and KAJ will still be miles off. That is unless….. : ) Jeanie mentioned this in her interview. Another extension is definitely possible as I have discussed in the past. If he does not go beyond 20 years, then I tend to agree with you and BCS, that there is little to play for in year #20 other than money (and it is a lot of money). Either way – you guys better get used to having KB around – and that is a good thing.
Chearn: “Yet again, the Lakers personnel is not fit to the coach’s actual strategy.” Indeed. So MD wanted fun and gun, yet we had twin towers which he did not utilize. Now we have a guy who wants defensive stoppers and we have none. So there does appear to be a mismatch of personnel here. At some point the team should take a look at this and there should be some accountability somewhere in the organization.
Baylor Fan says
One problem with all the tanking talk is that the Lakers are not built to “tank”. As bad as Minnesota is, they have some promising young players who could become starters for a winning team. The Lakers do not have anyone who looks like a future starter. Randle may become one but that will not be found out this year. The Lakers need to show free agents that they have a strong foundation and just need a star or two to push them over the top. Without that, the stars may go to stronger teams.
Anon says
The thing that really annoys me about our fan base on other sites (that I hope wouldn’t seep into this one) is the nonchalance cool/glee after Lakers losses, as if anyone who actually cares about the team this season is a moron because the team is purposefully trying to lose to get the top draft pick. This just might be a defense mechanism to show opposing fans that we actually want losses this year because it will get us closer to the championship and losses are actually wins for the franchise.
This is self delusion on the grandest scale. Even if JAHILL were the second coming of Wilt Chamberlain, this current Lakers franchise is so dysfunctional from the front office down to the locker room and they don’t have the foundation nor the culture to even sniff a western conference playoff berth. How many promising rookies have been ruined by playing on bad teams with terrible culture/environment? We never experienced this because we were always the exceptional franchise that brought along rookies the right way. Well, it’s not like that anymore. The guys that created the old Lakers mystique are all gone. And if anyone think that Mitch can just snap his finger and bring in a coach to instantly create that championship pedigree/environment, then I have a bridge to sell you.
As a sports fan, you always want your team to move in the right direction. Even if the front office wasn’t able to cobble together enough talent to actually win a lot of games in the NBA, you still want a coach and a group of guys that overachieve and win more games than they’re expected to, draft positions be damned. That’s how you build a foundation so that when you can actually draft or sign guys with more talent, then the road back to respectability can actually begin. To think that the franchise can magically sign superstar free agents like Kevin Love & Westbrook, when they see how bad the culture/environment has been since Jerry Buss passed away is just fantasy.
What really pissed me off after the loss against Minny is seeing Byron Scott blowing his top after the game, Kobe barely disguising his contempt in the post game interview, and then coming online and reading the glee of some of our fans about Jahill and Ringzzzzzz! Do these fans know how bad/poisonous the atmosphere around the team is right now? And that any mystique the Lakers might have had is rapidly being depleted. Eventually you are what your record is. You’re a bad team in a big market. So for those people who wish for losses, be careful what you wish for.
Oldtimer says
Tanking is like flopping, you are cheating the system in order to get rewarded in return. Cellar dwellers were given the highest probability in getting the best players from NCAA, to achieve parity. It is like giving handicaps in golf. Unfortunately, nobody has been encouraged by the league to tank in order to have parity in return. Once the intent is established, then it becomes immoral to fair play. Because people or fans pay a premium to watch a ball game. They go to the process of paying from the parking lot, buying overpriced refreshments inside Staples, and paid the seat in advance. It is unfair to them to watch a game that was designed to lose from the start of the season. If we follow the comments made by decent people here that Laker roster this season was built in order to tank and get back what FO offered to Suns, IMO it is just insane and unfair! If Lakers are caught intentionally tanking games, I hope there is a rule of one year suspension from the league. It is synonymous to paying amateurs to play in NCAA; Pete Rose gambling problems after setting records on hits or players practice point-shaving in order to lose; or common situation wherein Lamar Odom, Kareem, as well others were caught with marijuana in their vehicle. Those are example of varying degrees of cheating of which the rule was misinterpreted in order to gain their own selfish motives. Just my 2 cents.
I believe Lakers have only 3 victories not because of tanking, their roster has no chemistry, slow and obsolete.
Chris J says
As bad as this season is, from a fan’s standpoint my biggest disappointment has been the loss of Randle.
I had no crazy expectations (read: playoffs) for this season — I saw the same holes so many others did with this roster. But it would have been fun to see Randle develop, much in the same way Wolves fans are enjoying watching Wiggins and Zach and AB as they progress. They won’t win every game, but at least there’ some enjoyment among Wolves fans in seeing some promise for the future out on the floor.
As Lakers fans, all we’re left with is what … Kobe holding off time a bit longer? Nick Young doing Nick Young things? The hope that Ed Davis gets more minutes? The hope that Byron will shave off that ‘stache? Ugliness abounds.
BigCitySid says
Anyone have information on the Laker TV ratings? Are they meeting the share/numbers that TWC & the Lakers based their contract on?
Barath says
@Anonymous @1:07 on scott’s coaching
It makes a difference. What are the take-aways from the season ? What positives do you take into the next era ?
Increasingly, the answer becomes apparent as “not scott as coach”.
If we actually had young players with potential, it is possible that poor coaching systems would get them into bad habits that would linger. or retard their development. Even worse a front office might pick players to suit scott’s vision and make things worse.
Whereas the best case would have been to find a few gems who could contribute in the next era, pick a coach and style that could build familiarity (speeding up success) for the succeeding years.
It’s increasingly visible that none of these will occur. (well perhaps nick young) this season.
Agree says
Barath, completely agree with you. Clearly, Coach Scott hasn’t shown much ‘development’ ability with players previously. He could play Clarkson a bit more, especially in junk time (how about instead of Kobe) when they are getting blown out. Coach seems adverse to playing rookies even when it really doesn’t matter. We didn’t really get a chance to see how much he would play Randle, but my guess is it would have been less than Ed Davis.
Many people here may not like Lin/Davis but I think they are two players that would be good to have on this squad in the future. They both are set to be getting a contract into their prime playing years and my guess based on their playing history is that they both will focus on playing time opportunities rather than maximizing their contract. Clearly Davis could have gotten more, and Lin seems like someone who wants to play and win. If I was Ed Davis, I would be leaving the Lakers right quick after this season, if at best he gets about 20mpg behind Boozer. Lin I think was over-rated, but now he is under-rated. He has an elite skill of breaking down defenses by going to the hole, and if he keeps shooting jumpers at a better % someone will take him to be their 6th man, or start. Besides those two guys, I just don’t see any talent worth keeping around after this season, beyond vet minimum bench/emergency players.
I’m still optimistic that the Lakers will go on a winning streak (albeit a small one of 3-4 games) sometime soon. Kobe seems to be laying off the chucking (except for 4th quarters). The team played tough against the Grizzlies and showed some ability to hang with the best teams out there. Maybe Coach Scott can keep Ed Davis/Lin on the floor for the 4th quarter though for Defense/offense rather than that nightmare line-up they had the other night. Swaggy/kobe shouldn’t be the point guards period.
BigCitySid says
It’s been six weeks since Henry Abbott wrote a piece on Kobe for ESPN the Magazine. A month into the NBA season, w/ my beloved Lakers tinkering once again w/ the infamous position of “worst start in franchise history” I’ve decided to reread the story.
Many probably won’t want to revisit the story, but if you do, the link is below.
Note: please don’t overlook the Laker timeline on the sidebar, simply awesome.
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11717596/is-kobe-bryant-reason-los-angeles-lakers-downfall
Ko says
Here is a sobering thought.
In the past season in Cleveland and 16games here BScott is 24 and 71 and in the last 3 years and16 games he is 67 and 179(24%) for one of the worst 4 year win percentage in NBA history.
Seems like the perfect hire if you want to guarantee getting the dumb Nash top 5 pick back from Pheonix.
Boy that Jimmy Buss is a genius.
rr says
I’ve decided to reread the story.
—
Heh. This reads like a parody post.
As I pointed out above, the Kobe was 10/18 against Minnesota, and they shared the ball, to use your pet phrase–five guys scored 15 points or more. They lost anyway.
mud says
scapegoating won’t make the team any better.
neither will a burning sacrifice…
Aaron says
The surgery analogy is of course not a good analogy. The real analogy would be just rooting for a surgery if a person had a cancerous tumor that needed to be removed. Nobody likes to be operated on but you need to do it to have a better chance to live.
The Lakers need to be operated on. It sucks. It’s a lot to go through. It isn’t pleasant. But if you ever want to get healthy again you need to do it. But I guess some people will go to an eastern medicine store and pray the tumor goes away on its own.
rr says
How many promising rookies have been ruined by playing on bad teams with terrible culture/environment?
—
Uhh, I don’t know, but since almost all high-end rookies join bad teams, it is kind of a silly question. Mike Brown made a big deal about “defining the culture” when he got the Lakers job; Brown worked under Popovich, and I think the term has caught on because Popovich uses it and the Spurs have won so much. In the Spurs’ case there may be something to it, I suppose, but everything starts with talent. The foundation of the Spurs dynasty has been Robinson, Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. The other key elements have been Popovich’s ability to adapt to changing times and to lead men, and the Spurs’ ability to acquire and work with international players–they have always been ahead of that curve. So, I think the Spurs “culture” is basically that Duncan and Popovich are historically great.
The Lakers arguably had problems with the “culture and environment” even during the threepeat. The problem with the Lakers right now is that they don’t have any talent.
__
Kobe seems to be laying off the chucking (except for 4th quarters).
—
As I have posted 3 or 4 times now, the data on this is clear, and it was the one worthwhile thing in Tom Haberstroh’s piece on Kobe: he is gunning when the team gets down double-digits. The Denver, Memphis, and Minnesota games were all close, so as long as the team is in the game, he doesn’t start jacking up shots. I am not saying that he should do that, but the pattern is clear. As to 4th quarters, that’s mostly on Scott.
rr says
scapegoating won’t make the team any better.
—
Neither will complaining every day about the stuff that fans say that bothers you.
Shaun says
You know what really sucks … houston doing so well.
Their reuining the value of that pick for us. I’m pretty surprised by how well considering terrance jones has been out all year amd hpward has missed like the last 4-5 games but they are still somehow winning.
Aroza looks like a steal compared to parsons contract. They would have been a monster if bosh went there …. dumb bosh
rr says
Ugliness abounds.
—
Yeah. I am not that high on Randle, but he was a reason to watch. Like I said in preseason, looking at management, current roster, and future prospects, the Lakers are arguably in the worst shape of any franchise in the sport, including Philadelphia.
And Scott does need to lose the stache.
Aaron says
NM… The original surgeey analogy was correct. It was someone’s take on the analogy I read that wasn’t correct.
J C says
The Lake Show has turned into my favorite train wreck.
It’s clear now that Scott isn’t a coaching genius. I think I did predict ineptitude on his part prior to his hire but I confess being swept up by the way he beat the Laker history drum so well.
When someone is incompetent it’s futile to expect excellence.
I still believe in Mitch kupchak but he’s like the kid with his finger in the dike trying to hold back the flood.
Chearn says
Robert-“At some point the team should take a look at this and there should be some accountability somewhere in the organization.
Great post.
__________
Indeed, accountability has a genesis at the top causing Harry S. Truman to state, “The buck stops here.”
From the Heritage Institute:
The quality of leadership is the assumption and acceptance of responsibility for the organization and all decisions taken within the organization. The leader is also responsible for making strategic decisions within the leader’s responsibility rather than avoiding or abrogating this responsibility.
This team was assembled by the senior executives in this organization. Moreover, if they assumed Lakers fans could be duped by placing Kobe–the only player with a championship pedigree–on the court with four marginal starters to shield their intentions of tanking they are mistaken. Either they are totally inept, or this is another strategic blunder notched on their legacy belt.
Aaron says
I am very high on Randle if he loses weight. I’m a sucker for muscle definition.
R says
Put me down in favor of Byron losing that ‘stach as well. It’s not much, but right now the organization is a laughingstock, and any small move in the right direction would be appreciated.
rr says
I am very high on Randle
—
I know. I hope you are correct about him.
Robert says
Aaron: Very few would argue the fact that the surgery is needed at this point. There is really no other choice. Where many disagree with you is that this has been planned for years as some ingenious master plan of the FO. Let’s see, we will plow through 3 coaches, the DH debacle, the Nash debacle, and give Kobe a whopper extension, all to get the 3rd pick in the 2015 draft? I wish I was at the Laker executive meeting when that was suggested.
Anon: “The thing that really annoys me about our fan base on other sites…. is the nonchalance cool/glee after Lakers losses……..This is self delusion on the grandest scale.” Well yes – and the reason why they do this, is because they have to come up with a story that supports Mitch being a ninja and the Buss Family being flawless.
Barath: ““not scott as coach”. This was never going to be the case. There will be very little taken into the future across the board unfortunately. Randle hopefully will be if he fully recovers.
Byron’s Stache: I must agree – the thing has got to go. We are a train wreck in the appearance department. Of course this starts at the top with Jim’s hair, hat, and jeans. Then we had perhaps the worst doo in league history with Bynum. Nash had terrible hair and then got even worse with the schoolboy cut and was never the same. Byron was one of the best looking guys in the league and now he is being joked about. I’ve been telling you guys this stuff was important and I guess others are now taking notice : )
Ko says
Robert
You forgot Jeannie’s Twitter picture. Class?
karen says
Why isn’t davis getting more playing time, scott is under orders to tank and i am sick and tired of scott throwing his players under the bus to deflect from his own ineptness
R says
I’m serving notice: every time I see the T word I’m going to comment on that silly caterpillar on Byron’s upper lip. It’s just as relevant to the lakers ultimate success and will add just as much value to FB&G as all this T*nki*g commentary.