The Lakers continue their three game road trip tonight in Washington, just a night after beating the Pistons in Detroit. That game saw a tired and flu-ridden Kobe rely heavily on his teammates and a nice third quarter burst of his own to win the game and bring the Lakers record to 5 and 14 on the season. Of those 5 wins, 4 are against the Eastern Conference and 3 of them are on the road.
Which means, tonight, against the Wizards in Washington the Lakers are sure to win. Yeah, not so much.
I know I’ve said this a lot this season, but the Lakers are pretty outclassed in this match up. The Wizards are one of the more balanced teams in the league, showing out well on both sides of the ball with deep roster. They currently boast the the 2nd best record in the conference and have enough talent on their team to make it so they will be in the mix at the top of the conference until the end of the season — health permitting.
In other words, the Lakers are in for a severe challenge and any expectation about this game remaining close is likely just wishful thinking. In their core four players of John Wall, Bradley Beal, Nene, and Marcin Gortat the Wizards have advantages at nearly every position save in Kobe’s match up with Beal. When you add to this that Paul Pierce is their 5th starter, the Lakers are going to struggle to keep pace with this team and will likely find themselves in disadvantageous positions all over the floor trying to defend this group.
I could go on and on with this, but in it’s most simply explained by the fact that the Lakers really don’t have anyone who can stay with John Wall for an entire game. And if Wall is able to break loose, it’s only a matter of time before the rest of the team follows. Mind you, the rest of the team is good enough to get their own without Wall drawing extra defensive attention and getting his own offense going, but with Wall attacking Lin and Price for most of the night, those other guys are very likely to feast on a lot of open looks.
This is where I’d normally say that the Lakers’ offense would need to step up. And while that’s true, I have my doubts about it actually happening in this game. As noted at the top, this is the Lakers 2nd game in as many nights and a road game. Plus, with Kobe not 100% physically, their will be an over reliance on other players to step up and play well. That worked last night against the Pistons…but that was the Pistons. They’re awful. The Wizards are decidedly not and have good defensive players all over the floor to give the Lakers’ issues. Of course the Lakers can still get theirs and hitting some contested shots will go a long way in closing the talent gap (ask the Raptors), but it is certainly a lot to ask for.
So, sorry to be a downer folks. I know the Lakers are feeling good coming off two straight wins. But I’ve a feeling tonight, all factors considered, ends up being too tough a match up for the Lakers to overcome.
Where you can watch: 4pm start time on TWC Sportsnet. Also listen on ESPN Radio 710AM.
Ko says
They win this game if the left Lin in Detroit.
0 for 10
Minus 18
4 more TO
Zero points
Price plus 9
8 points
Now you know why Houston had to throw in a 1st rounder because no one but Mitch would take this guy.
T Rogers says
Kobe’s max for minutes is about 30. And that may be a little high. Whenever he goes over that he looses his legs. They were right there until the last few minutes. The game was much closer than the final score indicated.
And Lin needs to wipe this game from his memory ASAP.
the other Stephen says
I’m putting this loss on Bluehost.
Mid-Wilshire says
Philly wins. Bravo for them.
bball247 says
Kobe wants to lead the team so bad. Seems like if the ball moved more they would be better. Kobe almost looks bothered letting other players score.
Kevin T says
bball247. What
Did u watch the game, I saw him pass a plenty of times, but unfortunately they kept missing tonight. Kobe is ok with passing as long as his teammates make their shots. The reason he took more shots at the beginning of the game was single coverage by the Wiz by a smaller guy on him but once the double came and the Wiz moved Pierce on him he started passing.
Craig W. says
Kevin T
You are not going to change the haters’ minds. They have pre-determined that Kobe is an unrepentant ballhog, 6000 assists be darned.
Calvin Chang says
Awful shooting by Lin. Need to bounce back next game. Not sure how he ended up being credited with 4 turnovers though. I thought he had 2 at the most. Lakers need to get back to point Kobe in the post like those wins vs Raptors and Pistons. He needs to get Jordan Hill involved in half-court sets. Can’t believe how much athleticism Boozer has lost at 32. He used to dunk with his left so much when he was in Utah. Now he’s just become a jumpshooter.
BigCitySid says
-Laker point guard production last night:
Lin, 21 mins, 0 for 10 fga’s, (0-6 3pts), 0 points, 5 dimes, 4 to’s
Price, 27 mins, 4 for 4 fga’s, (3-3 3pts), 11 points, 4 dimes, 2 to’s
Clarkson, DNP-Coach’s decision
-“flu ridden Kobe”?
-PAYING HOMAGE
The Wolves honored Harold Gifford during the second quarter of their game vs the Sixers last night. Gifford was the co-pilot on a flight in 1960 carrying the Minneapolis Lakers that had to make an emergency landing in a cornfield in Iowa. Gifford is credited with helping make a safe landing and saving the lives of everyone on board.
-Kobe Bryant shot below 40 percent from the field for the 11th time this season tonight against the Wizards.
0 – 39%: 11
40 – 49%: 6
50 & over: 2
-Congrats Sixers…Philly becomes the 30th NBA team to win at least one game this season, welcome to the league.
J C says
The Lin experiment is a failure.
I believe playing w Kobe has affected his confidence.
If any contract should be considered as a trade chip, it’s Lin’s, not Hill’s.
Hello, Steve? Your back feeling any better?
bleedpurplegold says
Lin needs to be benched and traded for a secound rounder…..
Kobe at pg, young at sg, wes at sf, hill at pf and ed at c…..would give us some nice rim protection, plus a scoring spark with boozer and maybe lin from the bench
PurpleBlood says
And Lin needs to wipe this game from his memory ASAP.
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ain´t that the truth
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Kevin T,
way to set the record straight!
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a win tomorrow would be most enjoyable – Go Lakers!
Archon says
Byron Scott’s instincts were right in the preseason to have Lin come of the bench. Ronnie Price is a terrible offensive player but at this point he’s probably as effective as Lin is with Kobe in the game (and a WAY better defender). What I don’t understand is why does the front office keep on bringing ball dominant point guards to play with Kobe? We have a 19 year sample size to show that Kobe wants the ball in his hands most of the time.
At this point I’m not even sure Chris Paul would have had the gravitas to take the ball out of Kobe’s hands, especially not without an accomplished coach to demand that Kobe play off the ball more.All the Lakers need at point guard with Kobe is a guy who can play defense and hit open 3’s
Darius Soriano says
Archon,
The numbers do not support Lin not playing next to Kobe. So far this season, Lin is shooting 45.7% from the field and has twice as many assists as turnovers while playing with Kobe. When Lin is not playing with Kobe his shooting percentage is 33.3% and he has twice as many turnovers as assists.
Also, Ronnie Price will have a nice game now and then, but he’s shooting 32% on the season. And while his assist/turnover ratio is solid, he’s not really a playmaker for others, either. Basically, he’s providing about the production you get from Lin’s worst nights but doing that as his average for the course of the season.
BigCitySid says
– Hollinger’s NBA Player rating based on PER is out today. And the top three players in the league to date based on performance: Anthony Davis, Stephen Curry, & DeMarcus Cousins. Where do guys like LeBron, Kobe, Melo, Harden, & Blake rank? Check it out:
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics
For a better overall understanding of Hollinger’s PER, you don’t have to go far, it’s on a drop down right here on FB&G’s home page @ “New Hoops Stats 101”.
– Critiquing Kobe’s game doesn’t necessarily translate into “hating”. What Laker fan didn’t wish Shaq was better from the free throw line or Kareem was a better rebounder?
Darius Soriano says
Sid,
PER is a nice tool. I use it a fair amount as a way to generally evaluate counting stats that appear in the boxscore. One thing is, however, it doesn’t factor in minutes and, as a rule, most players’ efficiency declines the more minutes they play. This is one argument for playing Kobe less minutes, but that’s another topic for another day. Back to my point, the columns next to PER in the link you provided are “Value Added” and “Estimated Wins Added” which are stats that try to determine how many points per night and wins per season, respectively, a player adds to his team. Using these metrics, Kobe is 17th. Not in the top 5-10 as he’s routinely been over the course of his career, but not too bad either for a guy who’s supposed to be washed up.
Agree says
Since people are talking stats, my least favorite stat used to try and evauate an individual performance is Plus/Minus. KO above, who basically bashes Lin every game, even though he’s had plenty of really good games used +/- as one of the stat lines. Yet Wes/Kobe were -30 last night. Clearly Lin played poorly, but mostly his shot was off and he didn’t go to the rim like normal. But he still led the team with 5 asssits in 21 minutes, which I think speaks to at least one of the problems last night. Beside that Kobe who I thought played well for one quarter, basically didn’t do much beyond that.
Our bigs got destroyed last night. The team only shot 38% this team isn’t winning anything shooting like that. They need Lin/Kobe to win anything basically, or at least they need those guys playing efficiently and getting the other guys easy looks. Beyond Kobe/Lin this team has basically no passing and very limited ability to create. Young is supposedly our other creator, but he may not even average 1 assist per game this year at this rate and his career avg is 1.1 so a facilitator his is not.
JeffT says
Hey, if we use PER, Jordan Clarkson should be in the running for Rookie of the Year. Let’s start the campaign now. Who’s with me?
Archon says
Darius,
Thanks for that info, the eye test suggests different with Lin and Kobe but those are hard numbers to counter.
I would be interested to see who Lin plays the majority of his minutes with when Kobe is out.
T. Rogers says
It does seem like Lin struggles when he shares the back court with a ball dominant guard. He had his issues playing next to Harden as well. I think more than anything Jeremy is having a confidence issue. When he looked his best back in NY he was given the green light to shoot and handle from Mike D. Now he has the hard glares of Kobe and Bryon on him. It takes some getting used to.
KenOak says
@Archon
“At this point I’m not even sure Chris Paul would have had the gravitas to take the ball out of Kobe’s hands, especially not without an accomplished coach to demand that Kobe play off the ball more.All the Lakers need at point guard with Kobe is a guy who can play defense and hit open 3’s”
This is a silly statement. CP3 would have had the ball in his hands when playing alongside Kobe because he would have been effective at doing so. That’s the bottom line really. Nash was ineffective due to age and injuries which caused Kobe to handle the ball more. (Don’t you remember Nash getting punked by pretty much every player?) It’s possible that was due to DH12 not setting effective screens, but that’s a question for another day. Lin has also not been super effective, but I think that’s mostly because he’s not a superior ball-handler and not aggressive enough.
PER is not the end-all be-all. Magic Johnson is the greatest Laker of all time. The greatest point guard of all time and a top 5 all-time player. He had a career PER average of 24.1 which is pretty good. D-Wade’s is 25.3. Lebron’s is 27.7. TD’s is 24.5. CP3’s is 25.6!
Who would you start your team with? Magic or Wade, Lebron, CP3, or Duncan? IMO the only argument is between Magic and Timmy, but all of those other guys have higher PER’s. What’s my point? Only that PER doesn’t tell the entire story. You have to use the eye test for that. The eye test tells me that Magic was not only one of the 5 greatest players in history, but that he was a stone cold killer while wearing a sparkling smile. He wasn’t afraid of big moments and dominated in a league of historically great players. He was a 5 time champion and went to the Finals in 9 out of his 12 years in the league! Give me Magic all day every day despite him being the lowest among that group in PER. TD is second for me from that list and then maybe Lebron, Wade, CP3.
Craig W. says
When there is so much that is sub-standard on this club it is hard to pick out any particular individual as being responsible. As humans, we insist on trying to find the specific problem, but there isn’t a specific problem on the Lakers. It is a complex machine, with some sub-standard parts, that sputters out of control when one or more of the parts doesn’t function as well as we think it should.
As the parts wear in with each other, IMO, things will get better. However, to expect much more than an average showing over any length of time is probably asking too much for this particular team.
Calvin Chang says
Lin had a rough shooting night and lost confidence eventually. He was getting open looks but just missed them. This led to Wall helping more on Kobe, daring Lin to shoot jumpers. If he’s not hitting those, then Ronnie Price should be in. No need to panic – they lost to a really good Wizards team in DC. And they kept it close until the 4th Q.
Calvin Chang says
At Boston, Lakers need to play point-Kobe in the post, and Kobe has to get Jordan Hill going on offense. Lin needs to make some outside shots to keep the defense honest. If his shot is off (misses 3 open shots in a row), time to get Ronnie Price in. Btw: Wayne Ellington’s game and shooting form reminds me of Ricky Pierce.
BigCitySid says
-@ Darius, as always, appreciate your input pertaining to PER, VA & EWA.
-@ KenOak, I can’t argue w/ a man who considers Magic “the greatest Laker of all time. The greatest point guard of all time and a top 5 all-time player”. I couldn’t agree w/ you more. I look at Hollinger’s rating at basically the 1/4 season mark as one would look at a 1st quarter score or 1st marking period at school. It is an indicator. I also like how Hollinger interprets the rating on a SEASONAL not career basis as such:
“Player Efficiency Rating (PER), adds the good (made shots, steals, assists, rebounds, blocked shots, free throws), and subtracts the bad (missed shots, turnovers, fouls) by assigning a point value to each item (I arrive at the point values in a fairly tortuous way, and that’s one of the parts I’m saving for the book). The rating for each player is then adjusted to a per-minute basis (so that, for example, you can compare subs with starters in the frequent ‘he should start ahead of so-and-so’ debates), and also adjusted for the team’s pace. In the end, one number sums up the players’ accomplishments (the statistical ones, anyway) for that season. I’ve set it up so that the league average, every season, is 15.00, which produces sort of a handy reference guide:
A Year For the Ages: 35.0
Runaway MVP Candidate: 30.0
Strong MVP Candidate: 27.5
Weak MVP Candidate: 25.0
Bona fide All-Star: 22.5
Borderline All-Star: 20.0
Solid 2nd option: 18.0
3rd Banana: 16.5
Pretty good player: 15.0
In the rotation: 13.0
Scrounging for minutes: 11.0
Definitely renting: 9.0
On next plane to Yakima: 5.0
…and Anthony Davis is having one fine season…so far.
Anonymous says
Big City
Thanks for the reference to the pilot of that Laker plane so many years ago. Great stuff.
Re PER
I realize the metrics are complex, but
I don’t give too much merit to any rating system that values JJ Barea over Pau Gasol and Kobe Bryant.
Ko says
Agree
My issue is Lin D. He backs ever PG and lets them shoot wide open 3s or 15 footers. Wall would have hadc40 last night if he hit his shots in the 1st half. He seems scared to get to close. Must of the problems are out guards allowing guards to go anywhere causing breakdowns in the paint. Lin is biggest culprit and with Boozer behind him the defense is sickly.
KenOak says
@BCS
I just want to add one thing and then I’ll let this subject die. According to the chart you posted…Magic never even achieved the rank of “strong MVP candidate.” There’s something wrong with that…and Larry friggen Bird only achieved it once. I can’t respect a stat system that seems so inherently flawed.
J C says
Above anonymous post re JJ Barea was mine.
Calvin funny you mentioned Ellington’s form.
I don’t recall Pierce’s, but Ellington’s shot kinda reminds me of Glen Rice.
mud says
stat arguments are ridiculous. stats are important, but they are not absolute arbiters of anything. the arguments about Magic and Bird prove this. good stats don’t make a good player and bad stats don’t make a bad player. stats do help to describe aspects of the player’s performance, but they say nothing about context, which is also important.
Robert says
Craig W: “When there is so much that is sub-standard on this club it is hard to pick out any particular individual as being responsible.” Well – I have one “particular individual” in mind : )
J C: “The Lin experiment is a failure.” It was never an experiment. It was a salary dump and we were on the receiving end. You are of course correct that he has little value unless a team in contention takes some serious injuries towards the end of the year.
Kobe: He is amazing and is just a pleasure to watch. Byron is already starting the lobbying for an extension. MJ played past 40. And there is a whole other set of milestones. – to be the oldest to do ______. By the way – if Kobe leads the league in scoring this year – he would be the oldest ever to do so.
Aaron says
Or maybe Magic and Bird aren’t as good as people think?!!?!! And those offensive stats don’t even take into account the below par defense they played.
rubenowski says
“people can come up with statistics to prove anything they want, 40% of all people know that.” Homer J. Simpson
Tra says
KenOak,
I totally agree with both of your comments. Particularly in regards to ‘Stats’.
There are just too many different variables when it comes to ‘Stats’ for me to value them over than simply just watching the games. Proof and Point: It didn’t take PER or Plus/Minus – just to name a couple of these ‘Stats’ – for me to recognize who were the best players during the ’80’s and ’90’s. Viewing the games/players was enough for me to realize that Magic was better than Stockton. Bird was better than Dominique. Hakeem was better than Ewing. The Mailman (who I couldn’t stand; even as a Laker) was better than Barkley. And that Jordan was better than Drexler. No PER or Plus/Minus required. Just my own two.
That’s one of the reasons why I rarely bring up these ‘Stats’ when discussing and evaluating players. Although I don’t have issues with individuals who use them as a barometer or to bolster their arguments. It’s just that, for me, The ‘Eye Test’, was, is and will always be the best way to measure a players worth.
And for what it’s worth, I agree with you in the belief that Magic is the Greatest Laker of All-Time.
Robert says
I was one of Magic’s biggest fans on the planet. I was younger and even more fanatical about the Lakers than I am now (imagine that). In support of Magic, the stats I would cite are the 138 triple doubles (second all time), and most importantly, the fact that he led us to the Finals in 9 of his 11 full seasons. That said – Kobe is the greatest Laker and Magic has said so himself. Kobe has significant defensive accomplishment that Magic does not have, and he played on title teams with two different co-stars (Magic won all 5 with KAJ). Magic played 13 years to Kobe’s now 19, and Kobe’s career totals exceed Magic in most categories except dimes. They are both great – but Kobe is the greatest Laker. I would put KAJ ahead of both of them on the, all time goat list, however the the title of greatest Laker requires a player who has a power to draw people to the game like no other It is a 2 man conversation (3 if you are an old timer and want to add Jerry to the list).
Renato Afonso says
I really dislike PER. It’s a stat that has no other use than to “rank” players for barber shop talk purposes. You can’t compare a center with a point guard in a single stat without taking into account every single variable. No respectable coach will look at PER to determine if the player is good or not.
Like it was said above, only a flawed stat could rank Barea over Gasol.
However, there are plenty of stats out there that are useful when analyzed through the context of the offensive or the defensive system. The stats teams are now using go way beyond that and analyze the difference between an open look at the basket or a fadeaway contested baseline jumper. If the player misses the open look, the passer is not credited with the assist. If the contested jumper is made then someone may be credited with the assist. And which passer made the right play? I’m not saying anything more about PER. It’s a flawed stat that Hollinger used to project himself into the basketball world and which he admits is influenced by the overall level of play in that particular season…
Joe Houston says
PER is not a end all be all stat, its just an indicator. Useless if used on its own but useful if used in conjunction with several other indices and actually WATCHING the game to make an assessment of a player.
BigCitySid says
-@ KenOak & others, numbers are relative. And you guys know that. Magic won three regular season MVP’s. His PER those years were 27.0, 26.9, & 26.6. Those are pretty good numbers. MVP award is based on votes, not the highest PER, however I do find it a great indicator and one that can’t be ignored. Actually I’m an old school guy who was very comfortable using basic stats like points, rebounds, and assist…but along came metrics and as they say, the rest is history.
-Pertaining to CAREER PER, it’s an excellent indicator for predicting future HOF’s. 42 of the top 45 career PER’s are in or are shoe in’s for the HOF. The only three who are questionable are #21Yao Ming PER: 23.02, #26 Tracey McGrady PER: 22.13, and #28 Amare’ Stoudemire PER: 22.01, all who had great careers shorten due to major injuries in their prime years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html
-Interesting note pertaining to the Lakers’ early schedule: “The Hornets have had a brutal early schedule, both in terms of the number of games and quality of opponent. The teams they’ve played have an average winning percentage of .550. Fifteen of the 19 teams they’ve played have winning records.
Only the Los Angeles Lakers and Sacramento Kings have played tougher schedules by that measure.” Rick Bonnell, Charlotte Observer, 12/5/2014
BigCitySid says
@ Robert, the greatest Laker debate will go on forever. Yes Kobe tops Magic stat wise in most categories, and while you did give Magic the obvious credit pertaining to assist, you neglected career PER, Magic 24.11, Kobe 23.31 (and dropping), MVP awards: Magic: 3 reg season, 3 finals. Kobe: 1 regular season, 2 finals. And let’s not forget leadership: Magic hands down. As far as Magic’s statement about Kobe being the best Laker ever…that’s Magic’s point guard mentality, I wouldn’t expect anything less. In my book Magic > Kobe.
As far as including Jerry West in the conversation, if the conversation is strictly on the court as a Laker, he’s 3rd behind Magic & Kobe. If the conversation includes all things Lakers, West has a very good argument to be considered 1st.
BigCitySid says
@ Tra, just curious. How do you “evaluate/measure” players who you were never able to use “the eye test” on?
PurpleBlood says
I was one of Magic’s biggest fans on the planet. I was younger and even more fanatical about the Lakers than I am now (imagine that)
___
hahahaha, i was exactly the same way, though `rabid´ may be a more accurate description than `fanatical´; then again, i´m sure you´re being modest on that point! 😉
Kareem, Big Game James, Coop, Norm, Eddie Jones, etc….i loved them all as if they were family, but Magic stole my hardwood-lovin´ heart!
The Black Mamba is pure Purple & Gold, & his unassailable perseverance of the mastery of the game, is beyond anything my humble senses can fathom – love you Mamba!! Keep it coming brother –
Let´s take `em down in Beantown tonight fellas!!!
Agree says
Magic is my favorite player of all time. I don’t consider him the best per say though. Although he is the best passer I’ve seen, beyond perhaps Nash. I actually think Shaq was the most dominant player I have seen as a Laker, he was nearly an unstoppable force. Most teams just prayed he missed a ton of free throws, that unfortunately he did. His scoring would have been insane if he had ever just become an avg 70% nba free throw shooter.
Young Kobe was my favorite highlight reel laker to watch. When Kobe was going relentlessly to the rim and dunking on people all the time it was a blast to watch. Although some of the fade-aways are nice, its become too much of a one trick pony show for me. I certainly don’t watch basketball to see lots of fade-aways, Hakeem was the only guy who made that shot endlessly entertaining IMO.
This is still a team sport, so I enjoy players who seem to make the team aspect work the best. I think Magic seemed to make his team better, even if individually he wasn’t as dominant as Kobe/Jordan at least as a scorer. For me the stat line that stands out this season, beyond the horrible defensive ones, is that Kobe is shooting 44% in the 1st halves, and 34% int he second halves. To me this shows fatigue, too many minutes, and also him going into heroball mode in the 4th quarter and forcing up a lot of just straight up bad shots. It hasn’t resulted in many wins. I suppose Kobe cult of personality fans would rather watch him do that. But I would prefer to see some ball movement, which thus far seems like the way the Lakers end up winning. Like I said before, I think we really need to enjoy this year, because the true tank will be next year when Kobe declines more and they blow up the roster again. Sure we may land a sub star max contract guy, or an a too old to give a max contract to guy, but I’m pretty confident that won’t help us at all. There has to be a youth movement, ideally with some solid 25 year olds, not an entire crew of 21year olds that may end up being nothing more than decent bench players.
Robert says
Agree: “and they blow up the roster again.” So we blew up the old Phil roster by getting rid of Fish, Lamar, Shannon, etc.. Then we attempted greatness with DH, and Nash, and we blew that up. Then we blew up our next roster by letting Pau, Kaman, Farmar etc. go. So now we are going to blow it up next summer as well? And then again after 16 when KB’s contract extension ends? What does it mean when you repeatedly blow up your roster every year?
T. Rogers says
Reading these comments about Magic reminds me that he only played 11 real seasons of basketball. Bird only played 13 seasons. And Jordan (minus his Wizard days) only played 13 seasons with the Bulls. Imagine if Kobe quite after the 2006-2007 season? As fans we are pretty fortunate to be watching guys like Kobe and Duncan as they close in on two decades in the league.
Magic is my personal favorite of all time. However, I am in the camp that believes Kareem is the GOAT. Obviously his game was refined like fine silver. But he lasted 20 years in an era where players just didn’t last that long. He was ahead of his time with regard to his fitness regime and how he took care of his body. Just one more reason why the Captain is in a class all by himself.
Rubenowski says
BigCitySid,
I can’t speak for Tra, but what I’d do is contact Aaron for an “Aaron eye test,” which is different than everyone else’s eye test, except for maybe Jerry West. 😉
Archon says
Purpleblood,
I always believed that if Dr.Naismith could watch Magic play basketball he’d be immensely proud to see someone making the sport he invented so beautiful and artistic. If he watched Kobe or Jordan play I believe he’d have the same confused quote that cop had in the beginning of the Matrix when he watched Trinity and the Agent jump 50 feet across rooftops.
“That’s not possible”.
rr says
Darius has this right: PER is a tool, and a useful one. It should be used in conjunction with other information.
rr says
For example, PER tells us that to this point of the season, Anthony Davis has been the best player in the game. I think that he has. It also has Brenden Wright ranked 7th. Obviously he isn’t, but it does tell us that he has done some very good work in limited minutes.
As to Hollinger, I don’t always agree with him either, and PER has flaws. OTOH, a team that has made the playoffs four straight years and is currently 15-3 thought enough of him to hire him and give him an important voice in basketball decisions. That should tell people something.
Agree says
Well, current PER for Rondo that lots of Laker’s fans seem to want is 14.9. I’m really nervous that the FO actually gets Rondo next year on some sort of 4 year max contract that helps to screw us well through the rest of the decade.
My bet is despite recent crap performances, Lin eats him up. Rondo is still a great rebounder and assist guy, but that’s about it. His ability to score well is pretty much gone, he turns the ball over a lot and his jumper can help the other team win games. I can’t get why so many people think he’s so great, sure for 5mill a year, take him in a heartbeat. But as a max player, its a joke. Maybe 4 years ago that Rondo was worth it, this modern version is not. Plus its pointless to have a ball dominant guard play with Kobe. Hope Lin comes off the bench from now on and plays with Ed Davis again, that should be good for the team and the players.
BlizzardOfOz says
Hollinger was always very different than the current crop of ESPN stat-heads, in that he was also (or even primarily) a keen observer of the game. If you ever read his chats, you would have noticed that he was more likely to produce an anecdote or observation, than a statistic. That willingness to test his own ideas stopped him from becoming too doctrinaire, and also allowed a wry sense of humor. (He is similar to Bill Simmons in those regards.)
Reading guys like Abbott, you sometimes wonder if they even watch games, or pay close attention when they do.
Tra says
BCS,
For players who I’ve never actually seen play, – besides old video clips – I don’t evaluate them. That’s why I’ve never spoken on players – such as Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor .. – who came before my time.
However, that’s why I mentioned that ‘Stats’ can be used as a barometer in certain situations. Such as making comparisons between the players of the past to the players of today. I just choose not to do so.
Rubenowski,
I’ll pass on that “Aaron eye test” .. 😉
Robert says
BCS: We are not that far apart. I totally agree with your comments about Jerry West, and if you have Magic 1 and Kobe 2 then fine. However “career” length is part of it. Everything is not based on PER and averages. Kareem is great partially because he played so long and that will be true of Kobe. Magic was great in spite of a shortened career. In any case your #2 rating for Kobes is better than the 7th you stated elsewhere (I am guessing the 7 rank is on your favs list and not your rank – if so – that is OK too – Kobe is not likable to many). Also be careful with PER. You are saying Magic’s is greater than Kobe’s therefore he is greater, but does that mean D Wade and CP3 are greater than Magic? (I would hope not) All of this is very subjective and I will be OK with any arguments for Magic, Jerry, KAJ, Kobe, Mikan, Shaq, or Wilt to be ranked high on the GOAT list. As we have seen may do not like the Lakers and therefore other guys get many arguing for them. MJ is the widely accepted GOAT. LBJ could be. Bird I think is over-radon the GOAT list. Finally could we please start rooting against the Spurs (Have I said recently how much I hate them?), before people start a campaign for Tim Duncan to be on Mt Rushmore. If that happens – the majority of the NBA community will not even have single Laker on Mt Rushmore. If that matters to anyone – then root against the Spurs and for Kobe.
rr says
BTW, IMO Jordan Hill is a good example of a guy who is overrated by PER. He gets a lot of boards and has efficient shooting numbers, but he is a guy with serious limitations in terms of team defense, interior defense, and shooting range, which all affect his value.
Chris J says
It’s just one opinion, but I agree with Robert — Kobe’s longevity makes him the greatest Laker ever, over Magic and West. I also agree with those who’ve said Kareem is the greatest player ever, all things considered. His numbers equal or exceed Jordan’s as a pro, and you can’t discard what Kareem did at UCLA, either.
As to Kobe vs. Magic in MVP awards — there are a lot of people out there who believe Kobe should have three as well, but the media voters penalized him for his personality and/or the post-Eagle stigma. I, for one, will never look at Nash as a deserving two-time MVP. In fact, he should just skateboard down to Kobe’s place in Orange County and plop those two trophies on Kobe’s mantle, as Kobe was clearly the league’s best player those two seasons.
(Or maybe drive — I could see Nash popping a hammy if he skated too far.)
Quin says
I’v been scared to show my face after my boy Lin had the most garbage game I’ve ever seen, lol. He played solid D though, lol.