If nothing else, the Lakers loss to the Cavs on Thursday night provided what too few games this year have: fun. Kobe’s wonderful stat-line of 19 points and (career high!) 17 assists wasn’t just a joy to watch, he was a full of joy while displaying the skill and basketball acumen needed to compile such numbers. The entire night he mostly smiled and had playful interactions with teammates and LeBron James, with the two once in a generation players sharing an embrace and some quick conversation when the final horn blew. After the game Kobe commented that part of his demeanor was due to the stage of his career and the state of his team, noting that if they were competing fro a championship, his mood likely would have been different. But, of course, that isn’t the case.
The game also served as a reminder that nothing lasts forever. After leading his team to a win down the stretch, LeBron spoke of Kobe joking that like himself, the King was now “old”. LeBron would add that a player like Kobe who has smarts and skill can remain effective for a long time, foreshadowing his own career in some respects. Everything must end and we’re reminded of that even more today as Kobe rests in Los Angeles as his team is in Utah to play the second half of a back to back.
This Jazz game is probably most important to fans of Lakers’ losses. The team currently has the fourth worst record in the league, a game “up” in the loss column over, you guessed it, the Jazz. If the Lakers find a way to leave Salt Lake with an “L” they’ll tighten their grasp on that 4th worst record and, with that, further aid in keeping their pick at the end of the year. There’s a lot of basketball to be played, but much like jostling for a playoff seed the same will be done for draft positioning. At least that’s one way to look at it.
The game itself will hinge on which team’s big men have the better night and whether the Lakers, with Kobe out, have anyone on the perimeter who can match what Gordan Hayward will likely provide. Starting with the former, the Jazz offer a trio of nice young bigs, with Derrick Favors, Enes Kanter, and Rudy Gobert providing solid two way play and some rim protection (at least Favors and Gobert) too. They will make life hard on Ed Davis, Jordan Hill, Carlos Boozer, and Tarik Black all night, especially when it comes to battling on the glass and scoring in the paint. If the Lakers’ bigs can’t hang with their counterparts, this game likely won’t even be close. And that’s before we get to Hayward.
The Jazz SF has really come into his own this year, making good on his big contract and his summer of training with Team USA. The Butler product always had the all-court game, but his production would rise and fall and it was a real question on if there was another big step forward in his game. This year has answered, at least partially, that question as he boasts averages of 19 points, 5 rebounds, and 4 assists with his typical heady play on both sides of the ball. He takes on the opponent’s best perimeter player and hands out his share of punishment, too.
This is what the Lakers are up against. The Jazz aren’t a particularly good team record wise, but their trajectory is pointing upwards. This is more than can be said of the Lakers currently. On the 2nd night of a back to back and on the road, we’ll see how much the Lakers can conjure in the form of competitiveness. It’d be nice, though, if they brought of some of last night’s fun too. Even without Kobe.
Where you can watch: 6:00pm start time on TWC Sportsnet. Also listen on ESPN Radio 710AM Los Angeles.
the other Stephen says
Gordon: GL HF 🙂
Kobe: what.
BigCitySid says
-Last night’s stat line for Kobe was a thing of beauty, an efficient 19 points & career high 17 assist. He also looked very relaxed out there.
-One thing some overlook when mentioning the lack of talent Kobe is playing w/ this season has to do with salary cap restrictions and the fact the FO didn’t want to spend any more in luxury taxes. It’s simple math.
This season’s payroll: $77,345,994
Kobe, Lin, Nash salary: $48,099,938
other 12 or 13 guys: $29,246,056
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/la_lakers.htm
Not quite sure what’s expected from guys averaging $2.4 mill per w/ many on one year contracts. In other words, basically leftovers.
Calvin Chang says
So do we root for the team to win, or to lose? What a dilemma. When Rudy Gobert makes a block or Hayward hits a 3, I’m not sure whether I should jeer or cheer. A big man like Okafor or Towns can have a Patrick Ewing effect to make the Lakers relevant for a long time. So thinking ahead, it’s really better for the team to lose to the Jazz. But there’s something twisted about wanting your team to lose. Doesn’t feel right. If Clarkson plays, and is playing well enough to help the team win, you’d almost want to put him back on the bench and avoid the risk of inadvertently winning.
J C says
Although Lin’s salary is 14m this year, only 8m counts toward the cap. Some trade exception thing.
So if Kobe is 24m and Nash is 9 and Lin is 8,
That’s around 41, not 48. Just sayin.
tankyou says
Jordan Hill is the 3rd highest paid player at 9million, you didn’t include him on the list–he is part of the top 3 of our Cap hit. Lin’s deal was a Morey’s construction to use a “poison pill” bump at the end to prevent the Knicks from signing Lin to a cap friendlier deal.
Kobe played great last game, but some people’s comments make it seem as if Kobe only had better players they would be winning all the time. Kobe can’t physically play and recover anymore, and for every great game he plays now adays, he plays at least 2-3 pretty lousy games even with rest. Just enjoy the show when Kobe plays a great game, but he isn’t someone to build around in any form, we are lucky to see him play well occasionally. Its not as if he’s magically going to be able to play at a high level 80 games next season. At best we get a bit more efficient Kobe next year, that purposefully misses a lot of games. Doesn’t matter if the trade Hill etc, and get Rondo, Dragic, whoever–they aren’t making the playoffs in the West next year period. Let’s just hope Randle recovers well and shows some growth and I suppose we are stuck hoping for ping-pong ball luck and a 1st round pick that doesnt’ turn into another Wes Johnson type player–OK–but only a Good player if he’s coming off the bench.
LKK says
Hope springs eternal. One or two good players can make for a quick turnaround. Nobody knows the future.
Robert says
Kobe Alert: Special Edition: Wow – just when everyone is ready to retire Kobe, he comes up with another performance for the archives. The stats and clips from this game will be shown along side Kobe’s block of LBJ in the ASG, when future media talk about these two greats. The 17 dimes were not only a career high for KB, it was the second highest total by any NBA player this season, and Kobe did it in 32 minutes. All of this talk of “shutting it down” is of course quite depressing, but it does cause us some pause and hopefully makes everyone savior the moments like these. And to answer a previously asked question – it is games like these why I want Kobe to keep playing as long as possible. That all said, since we “might” not have too many games left this year, I am going to take an inventory of where Kobe is and some reasonable goals for the upcoming games. As a point of reference – there are 13 games left until the ASG. Kobe just moved by AC Green into 20th place for all time games. Playing in 9 more games will vault him up to 17th place (including moving by 2 Lakers – Sam Perkins and Derek Fisher). Playing in 29 of the final 42 games would move him into 13th place. Kobe needs 373 minutes to catch Gary Peyton for 9th all time. At 32 minutes per – this will take 12 games. A big milestone coming up is the fact that #24 needs just 16 FGs to go by Shaq for #5. Shaq and MJ are two guys Kobe likes to go by. He needs 27 three pointers to get by Dale Ellis for 11th on that list., which he should definitely do this year (he had 3 against the Cavs). I want to see Kobe catch Moses for the #2 spot on the all time free throws list. He can’t do that this year, as he is 386 behind, but I want him to put a dent in this so he has a shot next year. Kobe is currently 54th in defensive rebounds and needs 7 to catch Same Perkins for 53rd. Kobe is also being chased from behind here by a few, but if he averages 5 per game, he should vault himself well into the top 50. Kobes has been on a tear lately with regard to dimes. His 17 against the Cavs allowed him to eclipse John Havlichek for 29th all time. Just 16 more (a night’s work) will move him by Clyde Drexler and Scottie Pippen and into 27th (please note that all of these guys are HOF). Then comes the pursuit of Jerry West for 26th all time and #2 on the Laker list. Kobe needs 119 dimes for this milestone. He should get there this year if he plays in my 29 game goal. Ron Harper is 75 steals ahead of Kobe in 13th place. Too many for this year, but let’s put a dent in this so it is reachable next. A Iverson is reachable as well for 12th. In the points department, Kobe needs 532 points to get to the 33,000 level. At 29 games played that would require 19 PPG to get there this year. There are a number of ASG milestones that Kobe can set or extend. Those will be detailed in an ASG edition of the Kobe Alert. For now however, realize that the ASG sets up well in that the game is on Sunday 2/15. Our last game is on Wednesday 2/13 and then after the ASG, we are off until 02/20. So Kobe should be playing in this game for his full minutes. There is no reason not to. It is what the league wants, what Kobe wants, what the fans want, and what I want : ) Kobe rules !
BigCitySid says
Tonight’s game is a tough one for me. It’s a very winnable game for the Lakers, so I’m glad it’s in Utah. Lakers are only 1 1/2 games behind the Jazz, a Laker lost would make it 2 1/2, putting them one game closer to securing the 4th worst record. Emotional I’m pulling for my Lakers, logical I like to see the Jazz get the victory. The Jazz have the brighter future as things stand right now, our Lakers need the better draft pick more at this point.
I know some believe the T’ Wolves will improve over the 2nd half of the season and pass the Lakers in the standings. I’ll keep my fingers crossed, but I don’t see it. I won’t discuss Philly or the Knicks, so that makes games against the Jazz more important than usual this season. This is the 1st of 3, only one will be in L. A. Trouble is I don’t know how motivated the Jazz are. They’re on a three game losing streak just like the Lakers, and have only picked up one game on our Lakers in the last 10 games.
This would have been so much easier if the pick was top seven protected…tonight, I won’t be watching the game.
PurpleBlood says
this from the last thread:
The Lakers lose because they don’t have any consistent, high-level front-line NBA talent on the team. They have an aged legend who occasionally looks great and who is now adjusting his game to his new physical reality, and they have a bunch of bench players and part-time players, some old, some young, some in their primes. But they don’t have anybody who is really flat-out good, much less great. That was true before the team went to training camp, it was true on Tuesday, when Kobe went 3/19, and it was true tonight, when he was excellent. And the Lakers lost both of those games.
___
paraphasing CHearn: rr´s post is intense & right on the mark, thanks rr
___
as far as tonight goes, GO LAKERS!
rr says
So do we root for the team to win, or to lose?
—
Well, that is of course a personal choice. But, here are some numbers:
The Lakers have a 96% chance of keeping the pick with the 3rd-worst record.
They have an 83% chance of keeping the pick with the 4th-worst record.
They have a 55% chance of keeping the pick with the 5th-worst record.
Since most early focus is on Okafor and Towns, here are the chances of getting a Top 2 pick:
3rd-worst: 31.3%
4th-worst: 24.5%
5th worst: 18.5%
Reverse Standings:
NY 5-36
MIN 6-31
PHI 7-31
LAKERS 12-28
UTAH 13-26
___
BOS 13-24
ORL 15-27
DET 14-25
CHA 15-25
___
Thanks to PBlood and Chearn for the nice words about my recent post.
Tim says
No Ronnie Price tonight, maybe Jordan Clarkson will get some PT.
Ko says
Wow is Wes worst.
Ko says
This is a very bad team. And poorly coached. They have no idea what they are doing either end of court.
PurpleBlood says
Heck of a KB Alert Robert!
___
KO,
we sure do stink, you´re right.
looks like we´re headed to the lottery pick, wheel-of-fortune game of chance, whoopee
KenOak says
The Lakers have a realistic chance of moving down one more spot into 3rd worst record. I’m all about winning, but once it became clear that playoffs were completely off the table…let’s keep our pick please.
Oldtimer says
It is a battle of two teams who do not belong to NBA, we still lost. Maybe, Lakers should reclassify and just join the D’League. If we have a Showtime in the eighties, well this is the No Show Gutter team in ’14-15. What amazes me some young fans on this board are exceedingly happy because they could win the ping pong ball for Okafor. What a lofty objective, we love it!
Chearn says
Robert, I can’t wait for the ASG Kobe Alert!
I like Lin but he’s just not a starting pg. Sorry, but the Lakers win this game with Price, he’s not very good either but he’s tough.
dino says
Maybe I’m in the minority
Minutes restriction..missing games…no practice
Just retire…you are already 80 percent there.
Reggie Hammond says
Oldtimer
Given our current situation what else do we have to root for? Honest question…instead of bashing the notion with no alternative tell me what we should want instead of the possibility of a franchise changing draft pick.
minorthreatt says
Jordan Hill played well and reestablished himself as a trade chip. Black, Kelly and finally even Clarkson got some burn. And if we lose our pick to Phoenix, at least we won’t look back on this game as a meaningless Swaggy P-led win that knocked us out of a top five choice.
That’s pretty much what there is to root for, at least tonight.
Oldtimer says
Reggie Hammond,being positive is a better teaching lesson in inspiring the future Lakers than defeatism. Try to rebuild from within through pride and defining meaning of legacy even if their skill set don’t match the competition. Avoid aiming the cellar dweller concept to protect the draft pick because negativity is a disease that leads to hopelessness. We are living in this season not in future seasons. The future never takes care of itself, no guarantees in life, they have to take the challenges by meeting the bull on his horn now. If I am the owner, I would have a serious talk with the Coach and the players and make them excited, anxious, alive and wanted by this franchise. Build that trust, self confidence and hope by supporting them with changes starting with acquisition of Black. Let’s meet change with change and have that playoffs mojo now. After all these efforts, let the chips fall where they may.
Forgive me Reggie Hammond if I relate to you a story of our beginnings of what I meant by being positive. We came to this country 35 years ago with four travel bags, few hundreds on my wallet, my wife and two kids ages 8 & 3, all I had is a dream and a good education. We lived in one bedroom apt and gradually build ourselves after finding jobs and assimilate with the American way of life. We never lost hope nor ask any gov’t help. We saved, worked hard and long hours, live on a budget and paid everything as time went by. With humility, on the 20th year, I have attained all the things I have dreamt of, maybe luck but most of all it’s sheer perseverance in a survival mode.
Going back to the Lakers, if the owner and fans ask them to win, they should try to win at all cause. It is a matter of permeating a winning spirit which is great for everyone’s ego, pride to be part of the Laker legacy; for their career, for the sake of their family which is translated to longer contracts. It is hard to rebuild if you start from the prism of losing every season. No one wants to be associated with a loser. Sorry for my preach.
BigCitySid says
-Philly won their 8th game last night…against the Davidless Pelicans, they are now 8-31, w/ the 3rd worst record.
-Lakers have a real chance of extending their four game losing streak. Next five games:
01/19 @PHX 10:00pm
01/21 @NO 8:00pm
01/23 @SA 8:30pm
01/25 HOU 9:30pm
01/27 WSH 10:30pm
Lakafan says
Commitment to tanking… Just lose baby!!
P.s. Glad we have the clueless bs as coach when losses are more important than wins!! All he does is rip guys in his post game pressers esp j Lin
Oldtimer says
I was asked to comment by Reggie H. but Darius would not publish my opinion.
Robert says
Dino: While I do not agree with your Kobe post, I have made the same type of point in a different way. If there is no “secret” injury, then the “shut it down” conversation is really no different now then it would be this summer or next year. The logic that the games do not matter will apply during that entire time period, which is why I am against shutting it down now. If they do, then yes – it begs the question you are asking.
Team: We are now 2-5 “without Kobe”. Yea – everyone seems to be realizing “without Kobe” is not a good team (with KB is not a good team either), but it was a very short time ago that people were giddy about a game or two where NY was hot and everyone was talking about how the team functioned so much better without Kobe. So 2-5 and we just lost to the one of the worst in the league.
Purple/Chearn: Yes – looking forward to more games with #24 and the ASG. Purple: Could be a Who concert on the horizon. Since Kobe is in his 19th year, perhaps the team could be described as a “Teenage Wasteland”.
Oldtimer/Reggie/BCS: Of course we all know keeping the pick is more important than meaningless wins, but some are opposed to openly rooting for this game after game. Would I prefer if we lost more and kept the pick – yes -but do I still root for the Lakers – yes. Illogical perhaps, but openly hoping for losses is just too odd to do for some fans.
Reggie: “what we should want instead ” For me – this is abundantly clear : )
J C says
The Laker Paradox:
During the game I want the Lakers to play well, I want every shot to go in. I want the opponents to miss. I cringe at every missed defensive rotation. In short, I root for the team to win.
Then, when they lose, when the game is over, I console myself that each loss is actually a steppingstone to a better draft pick.
It feels perverse and a bit shameful to cheer for losses. But here we are.
KenOak says
It seems that some of our older fans who post on this site are out of touch with reality. I’ve watched this team since the glory years in the 80’s. The 90’s were rough for pretty much the entire decade until 99. The 00’s were also pretty amazing for this franchise, but right now we’re rebuilding. And, when a team rebuilds, there is typically a lot of losing that happens. No one on this board is happy about losing. Rather, some of us are happy that if we are losing anyway -> we may as well lose 65 games instead of only losing 60 games. Because losing 65 games may get us back to the top quicker.
Seriously, get over it. Popovich rests his starters like 10 games out of the year. You don’t see the Spurs fans complaining about those 10 games when their team is hoisting another Championship banner. Some fans on this board are complaining about losing an extra 10 games in an absolutely meaningless season. Because that’s what it is. Meaningless. As soon as Randle broke his leg and then Kobe got to 3rd all time…it became pretty meaningless.
/rant off
karen says
I could accept kobe’s absences if he would give up his all star appearance to a deserving nba player
devean george forever says
the Can Any Of These Role Players Be Part of a Winning Team Analysis:
Black: like him but undersized as a center, doesn’t block many shots, limited offensive game but shows flashes of being able to do more later. A keeper, but his ceiling for now is a Scott Williams type bench defender vs. someone like Asik who can be a respectable starter
Sacre: thought he had some potential but after comparing Sacre to Black I see the difference, not a keeper
Davis: a good but not great defender, effective but limited offensive game, should be a keeper but a little redundant with Black unless Lakers get a two-way productive frontcourt player, then he’s OK to have around
Hill: productive but not at a 30+ minute a game level and not worth the $9mil team option for next year. Better to trade him now and get something for him vs. waiting for the summer where the prudent decision would be to decline the option
Boozer: not a keeper after this year, should be on a more established team
Kelly: I see he improves spacing on offense and he can be an OK defender, but he just hasn’t shot well enough (34% 3PT for his career), needs to show more the rest of this year to be a keeper
Randle: incomplete
Wes Johnson: numbers aren’t as bad as you may think but doesn’t have enough impact on the game, not a keeper
Young: inconsistent but he’s at a good price and does impact the game from time to time, a keeper for now
Clarkson: a keeper for now, hope he gets more playing time as the year goes on
Price: not good enough and too old, not a keeper
Lin: would be a good bench point guard at $2-3 mil/year, think about trading him but actually would rather waive Price and give Price’s time to Clarkson
Ellington: done better than expected but not as good as say Jodi Meeks, not a keeper
rr says
I could accept kobe’s absences if he would give up his all star appearance to a deserving nba player
—
The ASG is an exhibition staged for the game’s fans, including international fans, of which KB probably has more than any other player in the league. And fans in China can vote–that is why Yao Ming was voted in as a starter. So, if KB got voted in, and he can play, then he should play.
People who complain about this kind of thing, be it about Kobe or someone else, are either simply confused or venting some personal spleen. The ASG isn’t an All-NBA team, or a team of great seasonal performance voted on by stat guys and scouts. It is entertainment for the fans.
bleedpurplegold says
Well said rr
Plus kobe on his a game is still probably the most entertaining and maybe even the best overall shooting guard in the league… we just dont see it that oftwn due to age and fatigue 🙁
tankyou says
Agree with rr, its just a fan focused exhibition game. Every year plenty of players who are playing better get snubbed or stuck on the 3rd string–b/c its a fan voting thing. Lin has tons of fans and is getting a decent number of votes, but clearly its not b/c of his play on the court. Injured players get voted in that don’t play at all like Kobe did before. As long as Kobe is officially a b-ball player he will be voted into the ASG he has massive numbers of fans.
I don’t like how announcers and such often label players as “3 time All-start” as if that has some great importance though. The voting is highly skewed toward large markets and offensive stats. But overall many of the best players till end up being listed. Honestly, I really don’t like the all-start game at all, I don’t think I’ve been truly excited about an all-start game weekend since the Dominique Wilkins/Jordan Dunk-contest days.
And for all those saying Lebron is not doing well, come on, the dude still has it. I think Lebron is just in the beginning stages of what Kobe is suffering with–the inability to recover fully due to age/extreme mileage. I don’t like Lebron, but they guy still is crazy talented, and he has already shown the ability to dominate games with passing–which will help extend his shelf life, as Kobe is showing lately as well.
VI Guy says
KenOak: “It seems that some of our older fans who post on this site are out of touch with reality. ”
Thanks, Ken, for being able to dictate reality to us old confused folks. I had some problems deciphering your point–probably my age. But I think you’re defending that we should all root for Lakers losses. I have a feeling that most older Laker fans are more OK with the Lakers losing than younger fans because we’ve seen and lived through this before. In fact, I tend to think the 2000’s and even the 80’s were an aberration- good one–but a level of domination that is totally atypical of what to expect from a team even w/ the pedigree of the Lakers.
At this point, I’m pretty OK w/ them losing, but I would like to see the team getting incrementally better over the year. I’d like the Lakers to play well enough, to see that the team is making progress, I think this will attract Free Agents, too. A culture of playing the worst possible ball to get a top 5 draft pick, will perpetuate itself. There are just a handful of franchise players to be drafted in a whole decade. We can collect all the top 5’s and still suck. Especially, if our goal is to suck to get the top 5 picks.
Since I’m scolding a bit, Darius, please don’t make fun of a player’s name by punning off a disability-,i.e. Autism Rivers,” it’s not funny .
Darius Soriano says
VI Guy,
Did I do that somewhere? I don’t believe I did. So, not sure why you’d feel the need to tell me that…
Slappy says
Oldtimer: some of us are not so young anymore. And we still favor losing like’s there’s no tomorrow (especially when, being older, there aren’t quite as many tomorrows remaining). By the way, I’ve been on the Towns train for a while now. I’m probably the conductor.
rr: Hopefully the Draft Express crowd gets this one right and Mudiay is 2nd off the board. So would only need the 3rd pick. But if not, there’s always Willie Cauley-Stein or Myles Turner. As for the remainder of the draft, perhaps Tyrone Wallace and Rashad Vaughn.
LKK says
If the fans want to see Kobe, so be it. It’s only an exhibition anyway. Kobe deserves these lifetime achievement accolades.
KenOak says
@VI Guy
Looks like you got my point just fine! I’d also like to point out to you that it’s a little difficult to get better, incrementally of course, when your #7 draft pick gets hurt in the beginning of the year. And, your top guy off the bench was hurt for 20 games. And…your PG of the past contributes nothing, while taking up 10 million in cap space.
*If we keep our draft pick, I think you’ll see some improvement from the squad. Which is what everyone wants to see. Ultimately, I think we all want the same thing. We want the team to get better, and they will if they keep the pick.
My view of the future is simple. We’re going to win less than 20 games this year and get a top 5 pick. Next year will effectively be rookie seasons for our last 2 draft picks. We’ll probably win 35 games in the West. Then Kobe’s contract comes off the books and we pick up the best available guy in FA. Baby steps back to contention.
/Cheers
Robert says
VIGuy: “I tend to think the 2000’s and even the 80’s were an aberration” No they weren’t. During the first 62 years that the Lakers were in the NBA, they won 16 NBA titles and 31 WC titles. That is making it to the Finals 50% of the time and winning it 25% of the time. We have never been out of the finals for more than 8 years and the longest stretch of not winning is 11 years. We are now 5 years and running on both counts and we are a favorite to break both dubious records. Those accomplishments will go on the resume of Jim Buss.
KenOak: Of course – I do not disagree. What choice do we have? That said – just for you – a poker comparison. You are seated at a table and you are losing. The casino comes up with an offer that if you go broke at the table, they will give you free Powerball tickets (draft picks). Catch is that it is limit poker and you must sit there and gradually lose your stack (over the course of three years) and then all you get is lotto tickets. Sound like a deal? Well it is the deal that Jim Buss has cornered us into. So I understand the frustration of VI Guy and Oldtimer.
Ko says
JC and others
Call me foolish but wishing or hoping to lose is like wishing or hoping to go bankrupt as a business person. I can do neither as excepting a losing mentality can in my opinion creates people that are fine with lossing. Lakers are losing because the ownership allows it due to being immune to financial repercussions.
Kind of like the banks and the government.
rr says
Call me foolish but wishing or hoping to lose is like wishing or hoping to go bankrupt as a business person.
—
You’re not foolish, but the NBA isn’t like the wine and spirits business, or indeed, like most businesses, so comparisons of it to other businesses, or to the government, generally fall flat. Vivek Ranadive has said some silly things up in Sacto because he makes the same kind of comps between running the Kings and his other business interests.
The Lakers are bad for the same reasons that every other bad team in basketball is bad: a combination of bad luck and bad decisions.
karen says
So the all star game is a popular contest and not a skills contest. Darn, who would have thought.
KenOak says
@karen
Why do you care whether or not Kobe makes the All-Star team? Why do you care if he plays or not? Did you care when Jordan made the All-Star team as a Wizard? Did you care that Yao Ming was voted as a starter even though he wasn’t even playing at the time? Did you care that Tim Duncan was put on the ballot as a PF even though he played center because he would never get voted in over Shaq or Yao?
Your fascination with the ASG is well…fascinating.
@Ko-
rr hits the nail on the head here. Don’t compare an NBA franchise with a regular business, or the government for that matter. Bad comparison is bad.
@Robert
I hear ya man, but I kind of disagree with you about how bad the FO is. They made a couple of moves which, at the time, seemed quite brilliant.
1-Dump Bynum before he went Bynum.
2- Turn that into DH12 who was the best big in the game at the time.
3- Traded for CP3 before LO and Pau’s careers started going south.
4- Got vetoed. 🙁
5- Traded for Nash instead which looked like an incredible move at the time and was roundly applauded by most NBA “experts.” (including non-expert fans like myself.)
Now, this timeline is not in chronological order and it omits certain things like giving Kobe 2 for 48, but you get my point. The FO hasn’t been that terrible…. The coaching moves, however, have been less than stellar. /sigh
We’re trending down at the moment. I get it. However, things will start to look up soon. Will it happen before your 8 year window is up? Probably not, but I don’t know if it will ever go back to the way it was before. The new cap situation and the fact that you don’t *need to be in either NY or LA anymore from a marketing perspective will probably lessen the desire of athletes to come to LA.
Reggie Hammond says
Darius I want to win too just not 25 games that will hurt the CHANCE at the possibility to get better long term…this season is a throw away I think we all agree might as well have a silver lining for our misery… it is bizarre to root against the team
I love but I do it with the big picture in mind…that’s all…it’s cool that some people want to win 20 odd games I get that but I don’t get why my thought process is bashed I disagree with KO’s business bankrupt analogy because there’s no going back after that….in this sport we may get a major bailout a huge turnaround in a year…I’d think any business on the brink of failure would jump at the chance of inevitably going under with a shot of business booming again the next year or following…just sayin I disagree with you’re opinion but can respect it only asking for the same in return however unconventional it may seem we both want the same result after all I’m no less a fan of the purple (or forum blue) & gold
Anonymous says
“People who complain about this kind of thing, be it about Kobe or someone else, are either simply confused or venting some personal spleen.”
Classic stuff there – apparently thous shalt not have an opinion of who is or is not worthy of an all-star nod on this site. Never mind that fans have been arguing this since the beginning of time. Here you will be ridiculed for it.
tankyou says
It’s not as if “rooting” matters in the win-loss category at all anyway. So if a fan’s vision is we need draft picks to turn things around fine. If fan thinks the team sucking makes our turn around slower b/c it will limit our ability to sign quality free agents with our cap space–I think that is a valid point as well. Only time will tell if a draft pick ends up even being a NBA quality starter, many don’t.
I’m starting to hedge toward the draft pick, only b/c I’m not sold on the crop of free agents next year being good enough, or at least young enough to merit us dedicating cap space to for 4years. So at this point I would rather seem them develop, draft, and sign some decent players that can be great young bench players as the rebuild continues. Even if we get Okafor–its likely he will need a couple years to be truly impactful, most of these talented guys need 2-3 years of NBA experience to develop. Its still a longshot us getting the #1 pick anyway, seems like 4th worst record is the most realistic for us.
I have to say as a fan I can handle us losing in a competitive game. When we are getting blown out regularly like the beginning of the season–that was the type of play that makes me want to turn off the TV. I certainly don’t plan on watching near as much Lakers b-ball during their tank. I’m already to the point where I’m starting to go to sleep at half-time sometimes. I watch to be entertained, a crap team is not something I find entertaining. Magic made me a Lakers fan, clearly as a kid if I had seen this LA team, I wouldn’t have ever become a fan of LA. For most of us Lakers fans that aren’t from LA I would say its the same. IF the Knicks/Lakers continue to stink year after year they will start to lose their fanbase–especially their national fan-base. New young fans aren’t going to get excited by watching a whole new patchwork quilt roster year in and year out–that stinks. I think the Lakers have to be careful next year that they don’t let this tanking thing get out of hand, if the Lakers lose too badly, it will hurt 2016/17 free agency as well. The chances of our draft picks somehow making us contenders in two years is exactly none. Timberwolves have mega-1st round, #1 draft pick talents and it still may take them a few years to make the playoffs–even with extreme talents like Wiggins. LA isn’t going to have near the draft talent that the wolves picked up, so using our cap space and builidng a team is huge. Thus far, I don’t see Scott as developing anyone, I don’t think his old school mentality helps develop young players at all, and he is pretty much into ageism–he plays vets even when they are noteably worse then the youngings. He’s not the coach we want to develop young draft talent–that worries me, Clarksons utter lack of development this season is a prime example.
Joe A says
Wow…just wow: http://youtu.be/gNE1Vju1ftM
BigCitySid says
-If you are a visionary, and can see the big picture, logically Laker losses at this point of the season don’t hurt much.
-@ Ko, “Call me foolish but wishing or hoping to lose is like wishing or hoping to go bankrupt as a business person.” Way to drastic a comparison, although that method has worked for a number of companies which simply open under another name. I prefer this comparison. If you have ever (who hasn’t) been stuck in a serious traffic jam and have the opportunity to wait & stick it out or detour by making a u-turn, go back in the opposite direction for “x” amount of time/miles, before being able to get back on track and reach your destination via a different direction. I’m a detour kinda guy. I’m dealing with the reality of what the Lakers are today by playing the odds and hoping for the best in the big picture…in spite of me lack of confidence in the FO.
-Pertaining to the All-Star game, Kobe deserves to be a part of this season’s Western squad. He doesn’t deserve to be a starter. I’m fully aware it just “an exhibition game”, voted on by fans, and overall the game means “nothing”. However remember some younger players have incentive clauses to make the all-star game. Also all-star appearances seems to be a stat fans of their favorite players love to boost about. Not sure how many of you feel overall, but personally I would prefer the most deserving players start & be selected based on their performance of the 1st half of the season and based on a minimum amount of games played (70-75%?), plus selection of all players based on a combination of fan voting 25%, coaches 25%, sports writers 25%, & retired &/or active players 25%.
Ko says
Bankrupse protection allows a company to in effect, pause and reinvent itself so to speak. Shareholder or thise iwed money to also are on hold. Growth is difficult due to change in terms and ability to add new talent. Most companies that take this route take 3 to 5 years to get back on top if at all.
Isen’t this in effect what the Lakers are doing by putting out a bad team and excepting losing? Pausing while they reinvent themselves with the fans being the creditors who must sit and wait until the team is viable again? As a long time fan I feel cheated as I was when I recieved a letter from the bankrupse court from a company that owed me money and who filed 11 on my company. I must now wait several years to recoup the loss, if at all while I also wait years for my team and that investment to pay off and to play to win again.
Seems like a good comparison to me? Either in business, sport you should play to win if you are charging full price.
Oldtimer says
Reggie H and Ken Oak, I am for the improvement of the team, if fate comes to our team that we belonged to the lowest five, I’m for it, I’d just don’t want to lose intentionally in order to get there. It diminishes our integrity as a team that was painstakingly built for many years as a winner, now cling for hope to NBA rules in order to rebuild. It is the lowest aspiration of this franchise in honoring the legacy of visionary Jerry Buss who built an unblemished reputation to fight back in good times and in bad. Undoubtedly, I really hate to lose even when talents are not there, I believe in fighting spirit of anyone who dons the purple and gold, call me an idealistic fool devoid from reality, it is still the Lakers ideals. Players have to win for the fans, for the City, for the opportunity of being with this team, come what may the prognostics are saying, whatever the rewards are in stored for the loser, Lakers should always try to win especially against a lowly team like Utah Jazz. I hope you will understand the cause of my frustration. It is a Laker fan’s passion carried over the years forgetting the reality of the moment.
I never said anything negative on this post, I hope it will be published.
Ko says
Wow is right I suggest you all view the Post above by Joe(copy below) and watch the utube video called “let it tank” starring Kobe. It’s darn good. Do it fast before its pulled as use of Laker uniform and Kobe’s number is trademark violation and I hear Laker’s will persue remedy.
http://youtu.be/gNE1Vju1ftM
Craig W. says
tankyou,
Outstanding post.
I read the story by the Houston owner about back-to-backs, extending the season, and limiting a team with fewer than XX wins to the 4th pick in the draft.
1) IMO, the NBA simply has to do something about this ongoing ‘tanking’ concept and this idea that you can’t lose yourself into a top pick would seem to have some merit.
2) Then there is the idea that back-to-backs should be somewhat localized – my addition to this is that no team should have to play Utah or Denver on the 2nd night of a back-to-back unless both teams are played.
Finally — absolutely everyone should see the “Let it Tank” video. Brilliant! It is now on my favorites so I can review it at any time.
KenOak says
@Joe A
LMAO that video is hilarious!
@Ko
Man. I respect the fact that you bleed blue and gold. I respect the fact that you love the team and hate losing. I get it. However, your analogy is still bad. BCS had a much better one a little further down the thread.
@tankyou and oldtimer and anyone else who’s hell bent on winning 25 games versus 20. I just have one question. Why? Why is it better to win 5 extra games. And, let’s be clear here. No one is calling for players to intentionally play bad, or miss shots. We’re simply trying to point out that getting a top 5 pick this year is better than not getting one. That’s it. It helps the team get better ->faster. So, if the FO has a chance to trade Hill for a pick, or Lin, or whoever, then I say yes do it! Even if it makes this team a little worse *THIS year because there are no achievable goals for this squad in 2014/2015.
/rant off
rr says
Classic stuff there – apparently thous shalt not have an opinion of who is or is not worthy of an all-star nod on this site.
Basically, complaining about who starts in the ASG is simply complaining about someone who is popular winning a popularity contest, and is therefore complaining about something you don’t understand. As noted, Yao Ming was voted in as a starter when he was physically unable to play. Whether fans should vote is a separate argument, but since they do, the ASG is a popularity contest.
Also, you seem a little confused, yourself. People can give opinions on whatever they want, and others can disagree if they want. The only rules that matter are the ones made by the guy who runs the site. No one stopped the poster from expressing her opinion. So, like the person you’re defending, you are complaining about something you don’t understand.
rr says
Seems like a good comparison to me?
—
If there were only 30 companies in America and they were run more or less as a cartel, it might be. As it is, WADR, no. As we have seen with the recent sales of the Clippers, Kings, and Bucks, the value is simply in having an NBA franchise, because there is always going to be some new superrich person who wants in if you want out. And, if you own a small-market franchise, you are also protected by revenue sharing and the cap. So, no, it is not the same thing.
The Lakers’ FO, as noted, had three choices last off-season:
1. Make big plays for guys like Thomas/Stephenson/Bledsoe/Monroe and try to seriously compete for a lower playoff seed.
2. Fill out the entire roster around Kobe with guys like Ronnie Price and Tarik Black and straight-up tank.
3. Do what they did.
But the team is “viable” in a business sense no matter what.
The question of course is, “Which option is the best one for moving the team back to being a good team?” Some say 1, others 2. The arguments that I have heard for 3 mostly involve portraying Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak as subtle geniuses, sagely creating a Trojan Horse of a team that is bad enough to keep the pick but supposedly will keep people from complaining too much, because it is coached by a Showtime running mate of Magic Johnson’s and has Kobe, Nick Young, and Carlos Boozer on it. That narrative is of course ludicrous-if the team is really bad, people will complain a lot and interest will decline, regardless of who is on the team and who is coaching it. If the FO is running a long con, the only people buying it are the ones who think they are on to it, because they are the ones who are not complaining.
So, no, I don’t think what the Lakers are doing is like declaring bankruptcy–I don’t see that analogy as relevant to running an NBA franchise, especially one with the Lakers brand. Even if the Lakers are bad for another ten consecutive years, the Busses will be able to get top dollar for them should they decide at some point to sell.
rr says
The parody video is very clever and well-done, but I for one don’t much enjoy our team being a punchline. But it is what it is.
rr says
Classic stuff there – apparently thous shalt not have an opinion of who is or is not worthy of an all-star nod on this site. Never mind that fans have been arguing this since the beginning of time. Here you will be ridiculed for it.
—
Have a reply to this in mod. Pretty sure that I know who you are (handle, not identity), unless you happen to write and think a lot like someone I have encountered elsewhere.
PurpleBlood says
but I for one don’t much enjoy our team being a punchline
___
that makes two of us
J C says
Q for the group:
Isn’t it possible that Kobe’s recent shooting percentages are just a temporary aberration?
Sure, he’s not getting to the rack on drives or dunks as often now, but shouldn’t his shooting percentage creep back up toward his norm eventually?
He shot 50% against Cleveland.
LKK says
@rr…
Agree. I’m a Lakers fan for life and didn’t even watch that video. Not going to clown the team I root for.
tankyou says
@JC, Kobe’s sample size for the season is now pretty large. Its likely he won’t be able to get it much above 38% at this point. The drives to the hoop was money for Kobe most of his career. Without that and with greater fatigue, less lift on his jumper, its likely he won’t be able to crack 40% merely by shooting jumpers. The 50% Kobe game was wonderful, but he also shot 15% the game before and he was rested for that one as well. All the players have bad games, thats why its averages. I think overall if Kobe keeps picking better shots he is going to have less games where he shoot horrible. Part of the problem is he was shooting a ton early in the season at a low %. It takes awhile when you decrease your shot volume to increase your % even with more efficient shooting. If I had to bet, I would say Kobe was not happy with shooting 37% and he doesn’t want that to be a bookmark number to end his career on–so he will continue to find ways to improve his stats, beyond the impressive assist numbers.
J C says
The vid is funny but in slightly poor taste.
Jim Buss should be in a video.
Kobe’s decline isn’t funny. He’s doing his best.
Things may be different now, had he played team-first for his whole career,
but I think he’s seeing the light now, and it’s glaring.
He’s a human being, and although I’ve often disagreed with his style of play,
he’s been a warrior and his recent 17-assist game again displayed his versatility and IQ.
The FO laid the foundation for failure with his recent contract and they should be held accountable, not Kobe.
Ko says
JV I agree being a punchline sucks but it is funny in a sick way. Yelling at the team we love won’t help so we might as well laugh in our tears. Any bets on how long it stays up?
Joe A says
RE: being a punchline
If you can’t have a sense of humor this season, not sure how you’ll make it through another 41 games. Even Kobe admitted to not being so “moody” given the current state of team. Any video that includes Kobe (animation or otherwise) calling Dwight Howard a “soft ass b*tch” should be viewed and enjoyed. My two cents…
As for Kobe’s shooting, I brought it up in the last thread. Here’s the numbers:
Career: 8.8 makes out of 19.6 attempts
2015: 7.6 makes out of 20.6 attempts
We are talking one more shot that he’s averaging per game…and missing it. Look closer and it is an extra three-pointer that he’s taking above his career average and he’s missing it. He has never been an efficient scorer (a la Lebron)…this isn’t an aberration, it’s Kobe (for better or worse). I imagine he’ll creep slowly up to ~40%, as he seems more selective with his looks lately…but there’s isn’t some huge deviation from the norm…except in minutes (lately) and healthy-ish scratches. I can accept the minutes reduction (should have been there from game 1) but it pains me to see the missed games.
BigCitySid says
-Video is well done. Originally I wasn’t going to watch it, but it rec’d so much attention on this board I had to take a peak. Wasn’t the first time something &/or someone we care for is the punchline. After all, that’s the beauty of America.
-As far as Kobe fg shooting %, sure it’s bad this year, but when has it been very good? Kobe has never shot 47% from the field for any season in his career. Not even when he had incredibly talented low post scorers drawing double teams like Shaq, Gasol, or Bynum as teammates, not sure why his shooting under 40% now should come as such a huge surprise given the wear & tear on his legs, his age, & the talent level of his teammates.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html
-Seattle’s comeback win over Green Bay was awesome
rr says
Things may be different now, had he played team-first for his whole career,
but I think he’s seeing the light now, and it’s glaring.
—
So, what does this look like? 7 titles instead of 5? 11 Finals trips instead of 7? Playoffs in 2005 as well as every other single year that he was on the team and actually played?
Guys like you have never quite figured out that Kobe is always just one of ten guys on the court, one of five guys on the court for the Lakers, one of twelve guys on the roster, and neither the coach, nor the owner, nor the GM. But your comment about Jim Buss indicates that maybe you are finally seeing the light.
rr says
Posted this a couple of days ago; I think it fits here:
There is a small group of people here that have focused very heavily on what he was doing and have never really stated that he was just “one of many” reasons that the Lakers are bad. This is readily observable by the fact that the vast majority of the posts made by these people deal with Kobe, and almost always deal with how he is playing on offense, and usually say something mildly negative about him, even when he plays well.
Chearn says
rr-“The parody video is very clever and well-done, but I for one don’t much enjoy our team being a punchline. But it is what it is.”
Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!
_____
You classified that too! LOL
Robert says
KenOak: My last post disappeared. Needless to say – I disagreed with your view of the FO, and others have said the same above. With regard to the achievable goals, exactly what are those going to be next year? Yes I know we will have a couple decent youngsters (hopefully), but this is a very slippery slope. This is the point that Oldtimer and others are making. Once you get in the mode and the mentality, it is hard to get out of it.
Kobe ASG: A much better measure of who the best players are is the ALL NBA Team. A category that Kobe dominates as well.
KenOak says
In regards to the video…if you can’t laugh at yourself, then how can you laugh at anyone else? I thought it was pretty funny and I’m as big a Kobe fan as anyone.
@rr
You’re on fire with this post man. Nothing is good enough for some people on this board when it comes to Kobe.
@Robert
I don’t think we necessarily disagree about the FO. It’s more a matter of degree I think. Jim/Jeanie/Mitch have made mistakes over the last couple years, but Jim is one vetoed trade away from being hailed as Owner of the year. One veto away from adding a couple more ‘chips to the franchise. Then, he made a move that was widely panned as brilliant by NBA experts when he traded for Nash and DH. There have been mistakes..notably in coaching hires. MB, MDA, and not hiring PJAX. However, the jury is still out on Byron Scott IMO. Kobe’s contract is also a mistake, but again only one of degree. They should have resigned him, but at maybe 16 million a year? I just can’t hate on the FO as much as many on FB&G.
bball247 says
Did anyone see the bleacher report about kobe hanging them up? Any truth? Would you welcome it or do you hope to see kobe play one more year.