Anthony Irwin is a lifelong Lakers and, by extension, NBA fan. The league is in a great place and he joins Forum Blue & Gold as the Lakers seem to be turning things around. In his inaugural post here at FB&G, he looks at the team’s young core and the pressure they face to be impact players right away. You can follow Anthony on twitter @AnthonyIrwinNBA.
Think back on NBA history. Try to remember rookies who stepped in and immediately altered their franchise’s outlook.
Prospects who had early success like James Worthy, Magic Johnson and Kobe Bryant joined at least borderline title teams. Tim Duncan may have to a certain extent, though he did so mostly because of some pretty ridiculous luck. Some might mention Michael Jordan, though he didn’t reach the second round of the playoffs until his fourth year, enduring two sweeps along the way. Even LeBron James failed to make the playoffs in his first two seasons and was eliminated early in his third trip to the postseason before finally famously taking the world by storm in his fourth.
The lesson: entrusting the entire organization’s outlook to a rookie without much help from elsewhere on the roster isn’t ideal and rarely works out for either side.
Next season, the Lakers’ young core of D’Angelo Russell and Julius Randle look forward to something no Lakers rookie has ever gone through before: the pressure of immediately altering the course of an entire organization. Will the pressure make diamonds, or crush an exciting group of kids under it completely? The Lakers desperately hope for the former as all season, you can imagine potential free agents will be watching from afar.
The Lakers’ offseason has played out fairly well, especially when you consider Mitch Kupchak & Co. had to recover from again being passed up by the top targets of the summer. Both LaMarcus Aldridge and DeAndre Jordan looked at San Antonio and Dallas, respectively, and saw better situations where they might have a better chance at contending perennially.
Russell, Randle and Jordan Clarkson represent the Lakers’ best and, if we’re being completely honest, only asset Kevin Durant might look at with some promise moving forward when he’s a free agent in one year’s time. Sure, the Lakers offer financial flexibility to bring in someone else the following summer, but hasn’t that been their claim this year and last? And look how that’s turned out.
Instead, Durant and anyone else interested in playing for the Lakers will have the opportunity to watch three fifths of the ideal starting lineup compete this weekend in the Las Vegas Summer League.
Fortunately, though, these guys have each other to lean on. We’re operating under the assumption Randle is essentially a rookie, as he played all of 14 minutes before his leg shattered. I won’t go so far as to say the pressure in any way, shape or form led to that tragic injury, but as an English grad, it’s hard not to see some sort of irony there. There was Randle, attempting to hold the franchise up on his albeit broad shoulders, then, CRACK, there he went.
Just as Kobe has multiple times, Randle sat there in a heap on the ground understanding what had occurred looking forward to a long and arduous recovery program. Again, there is no possible correlation between the weight of the franchise and the Lakers’ broken bones and torn ligaments, but I can’t imagine it helps much, either.
In terms of basketball responsibilities, the roster is now somehow littered with players who can create for themselves and, more importantly, others. Clarkson’s stellar rookie season means he’ll have some momentum as he prepares to play alongside Russell, who did pretty well in his lone season at Ohio State, where he carried a mediocre Buckeyes team to a fun run in the NCAA Tournament. He’s been there before, and would seem ready to do so again.
Lakers fans, there’s your backcourt.
The aforementioned Randle, who by all accounts has blown away the coaching staff and front office alike with his work ethic and skillset in workouts this summer has also been there before. In his one season at Kentucky, he carried a young team all the way to the National Championship game despite have under-performed for much of the regular season. Again, he’s been here before, and he’ll have a pretty perfect counterpart in Hibbert, who looks to make up for any of Randle’s defensive deficiencies.
Hibbert has been inconsistent for long stretches, but he’s immediately better than anyone Randle might have played with last year. That’ll go a long way in easing any increased organizational pressure Randle might feel.
Add to that trio and group of veterans up and down the roster who have all been here before and that Kobe guy has done well carrying this organization. Sure, he hasn’t always been the greatest mentor to young players, but one would think he understands what exactly is at stake here. One thing Bryant has always respected has been work ethic, something these kids seemingly have in droves.
At the end of the day, the Lakers and this core find themselves in quite the precarious situation: their success is directly linked to each other. Not just this season, but also for the foreseeable future.
Yes, it’s quite the weight; but it is nice to think Russell, Randle and Clarkson can share the burden.
Fern says
Well said, exactly my thoughts.
Teamn says
Nice post, hope the young guys actually get time and they respond.
Michael says
I watched clips of Randle many times. At times he looked like an out-of-control semi. So I expect him to take a few wild shots. Russell reminds me of Van Exel. Confident and fearless. The dual point guard back court worked last season for the Lakers, it will be better this coming season. Nance will probably pass up shots, deferring to guys who like to shoot. I don’t see Nance as being as confident as the other draftees. Go Lakers!!!
tankyou says
Yep, its all about Randle and Russel, one or both better end up being really really good.
I’m not a fan at all of the Lou Williams p/up but he is a shot creator, of course he can’t defend anyone at all. Brandon Bass is a good all around player, so he can help take some pressure off for sure. Hibbert is a sloth, but he still can deter shots and we needed some sort of defensive presence desperately, I was getting scared for awhile that Sacre/T. Black would be our defensive front court.
All in all, I think the team is still going to stink, but maybe just maybe they get out of the basement and move toward the 30 win mark. Really its about how they lose the matters, do they become competitive as the year goes on rather then getting blown out all the time? They have enough guys that they should be able to start to compete a little bit. But their guards/SF’s, basically their wing players have little to no defense. So they aren’t going to win a lot in the west when their 1-3 positions are offensive players with no Defense. So expect tons of scoring by our opponents next season, wins will come from the occasional game where we outscore the other team, not by defensive acumen.
Casual Fan says
Why aren’t there any talks of signing Tarik BLack yet? He’s a much better option than Sacre but we already picked up Sacre’s option…
Vasheed says
@Darius,
Nice post, in the wake of not landing the big free agent there has been a lot of negativity. The situation this year though is light years better than last year. I’m not expecting the rookies to carry the Lakers to a championship this year or even the play offs but, this should be an upcoming team this year.
@Casual Fan,
Black is already under contract. It is a non-guaranteed salary but there is no reason to sign him at this point.
rubenowski says
I think the chemistry in this team is gonna be off the charts. Cant wait! Gonna be real fun and nice to see.
macster says
Lets not sleep on the other two rookies; Nance Jr., and Brown. These two are the keys for me. “If”, they can play at a decent level then we will be exponentially better. I think that "they" are stars in the making, especially that Nance kid. He has Hollywood written all over him, and as for Brown, he will be very good. Just a thought.
🙂
M~
BigCitySid says
– Just waiting for the dust to settle, to get a very real look at the roster predicted to start the season. Looking forward to my fellow posters opinions of how our Lakers are doing. Expecting everything from playoffs to bottom three lottery team…and obviously what to expect of Kobe.
Warren Wee Lim says
Really like the additions of “young vets” into the team.
Lou Williams will be 29 when the season starts, Brandon Bass just turned 30 2 months ago. Both players have extensive experiences in the league, bringing their 10-yr veteranship into a very young Lakers team whose feet need to get wet first.
Considering that we struck out in FA in terms of acquiring the home run free agent, the acquisition of Hibbert and the signings of Williams and Bass provide for what constitute as 3 solid hits to get the bases loaded. It is up to the prevailing health of Kobe and the development of the youngsters that will determine if we are able to send the 2016 pick to Philly with decency or with dishonor.
Bass and Williamsare not the biggest names you hear everyday. They have never been all-stars (or close to it) and they probably never will sniff that heading into their primes. They will not surprise you with 50-point games or become the team’s savior. But make no mistake, one thing both bring to the table is consistency.
In Lou Williams’ one-and-done season in Toronto, he became the spark plug that saved the team from lackadaisical scoring. In turn, his best season as a pro garnered him the 6MOY award. In 80 games, LW averaged 15.5ppg, 1.1spg and 1.3topg in only 25.2mpg. In today’s world of analytics basketball, that’s as good as over 22ppg and 1.8topg. What he is not is a good defender. At a light frame of 6’2 and 175, Lou is strictly a guard. What he is though, is a very efficient scorer and shooter especially from the corners at ~49% and from midrange ~45%.
Brandon Bass was a quasi starter for the Celtics for the last 4 seasons. From a full-time starter averaging 32mpg, he little by little lost his starting gig to younger and more promising forwards. What he is not is a great defender or scorer. What he is though, is a very efficient player who doesn’t have an ego to be effective. He is not a rim protector but he is a very good mid-range shooter and a bruiser. Not a particularly great rebounder but not a bad one either. His per 36 from last year provide a modest but impressive 16/7.
So barring any further additions/subtractions, the Lakers can comfortably run:
Russell – Williams – Bryant – Randle – Hibbert
Clarkson – Brown – Young – Bass – Sacre
LW has been effective as a 6th man, but in here he could work as a starter to give free reign to Clarkson to run our bench mob.
Shaun says
If we could pick up dorrel wright, sign upshaw ….. pretty good team …. i dont think we need to deal young because his contract has big value in this new league … id prefer we trade kelly or sacre
Still some value on the FA wire:
Gerald green
Wayne ellington
Justin holiday
Luc mbah a moute
Dorrell wright
Jordan hill
Darrell arthur
Kevin seraphin
If we can get any of these guys on min contracts it could be worth it compared to having kelly or sacre on the team
Todd says
While the dust is still settling on the new roster I thought I’d chip in on some thoughts. We are definitely better than last season when so many of our players were NBA vagabonds – veterans looking for another/last chance. Hibbert, Bass and Williams are actual NBA players. With their addition and the development of Randle/Russell/Clarkson it’s not inconceivable to envision improvement of 10 to 15 games in the standings.
While that does not get us to the playoffs it does show improvement. Some are you are thinking that I am setting the bar too low, however, I think I’m being realistic. Look at some of our stats from last year:
1) We finished 19th in team offense last year
2) We finished 29th in team defense
3) We finished 27th in points differential
4) We finished 12th in rebounding but we have lost 23 rebounds a game by letting Boozer, Davis and Hill go (fyi – Hibbert averages 8 boards a game)
A sound rebuttal is that these are stats from last year’s team and we will essentially have a totally new team in place this season. That is both a good thing and a bad thing. Good in the sense that I think these stats will improve because we are dealing with better players – even better in that Randle, Russell and to a lesser degree Clarkson are wild cards with the potential to be real difference makers (in time). But bad in the sense that it isn’t a given that things mesh perfectly in year one of getting everyone together.
This is the kernel of truth that the FO is missing when they make a pitch to an elite free agent. The players know what it takes to win and in the case of Aldridge, Jordan and Monroe it was clear to them that the Lakers are years away from competing. A better tact would have been to target one or two younger free agents to join the core and build for better times. In my mid the energy spent on Aldridge and Jordan was a waste they were bad fits in terms of timing – theirs is to win a championship and ours is to get back to .500. Better to have prioritized Monroe with the red carpet pitch as he has the time horizon to let this thing play out to everyone’s benefit.
Which brings me to another point – Jim Buss. In my mind he is a peter pan, a ne’er-do-well. Jeanie’s recent article in ESPN actually scared me. The timing of it was odd – right in the middle of their free agent pitches. She again brought up Jim’s timeline which is down to 2 years and she indicated that she will hold him to it. So if this year gets us to between 30 – 35 wins that leaves next year before the timer goes off on Jim. I think the best course of action for the Lakers is to let the kids develop and opportunistically look for young talent (like the recent missed opportunity with Monroe) and doing the same thing next offseason. In other words acknowledge that doing this right is going to take longer than two years. I worry that Jim is going to feel pressured into saving his job and will make rash decisions with our young players.
Jeanie should intervene and make Jim’s role more ceremonial (removing his head from the chopping block), make Mitch a consultant (ala Jerry West) and bring in some strong new blood. It’s time for a new vision and a new voice.
Brian P. says
Based our current roster and possible rookie pickups we don’t have any room to sign anybody else:
kobe
russell
clarkson
randle
hibbert
young
sacre
brown
nance
bass
williams
black
jabari brown
kelly
upshaw
To sign other players we would need to trade some ppl, or not sign a. brown, nance, or upshaw.
We might be able to drop jabri browns contract too,don’t remember if it is guaranteed.
Considering Lakers generally like to leave a roster spot open during the year, at least one of the players listed ( most likely a couple of the names, won’t be Lakers this year )
edge says
They won 21 games last year, a year filled with injuries and definitely tanking towards the end. Could they have won 31 games otherwise? Barring any unforseen injuries, this roster is going to be better than last years. Look what clarkson did! Blake Griffin and Damian Lillard were impact players their first seasons. Well, 2nd season for Blake. There is no doubt in my mind Russell and Randle can do the same. This team could make the playoffs but it will come down to coaching and hopefully they buy into what b scott is trying to do.
Shaun says
Brian – there is talk of young,sacre or kelly being dealt as part of hibbert trade …plus a possible s&t with dallas for lin
The 9th might bring us yet another surprise
Kareem says
I am so glad that we are not tanking this year. There are a lot of question marks for this team (defense, usage on offense, lineups, rookie expectations, kobe), but we will be competitive most games. And the team did this while maintaining relative flexibility for next year, the Hibbert deal is a coup in that sense. With the money we would have had to shell for other players a one year flier on Hibbert is a great move. And if we nearly make the playoffs and have the space to sign a max and a half, that will put us in contention within the next few years. I think the FOs moves demonstrate that rumors of their demise have been greatly exaggerated.
Vasheed says
Mike Bresnahan put up an interesting article at the LA Times about a sign and trade involving Lin, the Mavericks, Monta Ellis, the Pacers and Roy Hibbert.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lakers-20150706-story.html
So Ellis is supposed to get 44 million over 4 years. Would that mean Dallas could absorb 11 million of salary back or does that invoke the Base Year Compensation rule dropping it to I think 5.5 million?
Brian P. says
Vasheed,
I believe under the new CBA salaries need to be within 150% and some additional change that I don’t remember off the top of my head.
So technically Monta can be traded for 16.5 + million in salary.
I am no Larry Coon though, so I may be off.
Vasheed says
Thanks Brian,
I’m curious if this could be a means to shed some salary.
Justin says
My opinion on all this:
This upcoming year is going to be much different than last year. First teams like the Clippers, Mavs, Blazers got worse. The Lakers are better than last years team but not that much. This should put the Lakers at about 35 wins. I still don’t think that will be a big enough improvement to go after the big fish next year, but at least we won’t give Philly a high lottery pick (Suns are probably kicking themselves now. They made the trade thinking the Lakers would get really good FA). Hibbert will help a lot and was needed to keep their max space open next year plus he helps them reach the salary floor. Hibbert is a big boost over Hill. And his 25 minutes shouldn’t stop the Lakers from running with the young guns (I expect we will see a lot of Russell, Clarkson, and Randle together).
Brandon Bass is a solid player. He stays in his lane so he never hurts you. He has a sweet 15 foot jump shot which should help on a pick and pop with Russell. He will be a good back big and is a professional. And I assume that’s why they wanted him. To show Randle the ropes (much of the same reason they got Boozer last year). If Randle makes a big improvement over the year and is a professional the Bass signing was a great one.
Lou Williams is an interesting fit. He can create shots and brings a good energy and leadership. Nick Young us likely gone. Young is a vastly superior shooter, but they do the same thing, score when the shot clock is running down. He also seems like he is on the team mostly to be a vet to help Clarkson and Russell. This seems to point that the Lakers are trying to develop their young players. Knowing Jim’s timeline, my guess is they want to develop them as fast as possible to try to trade one or two of them. Yes it could be a big mistake, but someone on a short deadline makes me believe Jim will be looking at trades to improve quickly.
The one thing I will give the Lakers major props on is that they never seem to kill themselves with a bad contract. I know the Kobe contract will be brought up, but I think they really did that for 3 reasons A) to show Durant, Lebron, etc that unlike those cheap teams they take care of their players (this proved not to matter so far), B) to keep Kobe from bad mouthing the Lakers going through some down years (this seems to have worked), and C) because they thought he would be better than he is. If you look at Duncan, Nash (until he came to the Lakers), Dirk, Pierce you see that a strong work ethic can slow the age process. And Kobe works harder than all of them. But there are two problems 1) Kobe’s body has broken down. His injuries have robbed him of a lot. On top of that unlike some of the other recent 35 year old plus players Kobe has a bigger work load. Kobe would look a lot better if he played on say the Spurs. 2) Kobe is a true alpha male. He refuses to accept a lessor role. This is the reason that he became the player he was and not just a good sidekick to Shaq. When you see players like Vince Carter and T-Mac you realize how special Kobe’s will is. The problem is of course that when the body can no longer do those things he just tries to work harder to remain the same. In that respect I truly admire Kobe and would never want him to change, but the Lakers also need to move on. Just like wolves when the alpha male is hurting the pack the pack will die off unless a new alpha takes over. No one in the lockroom can do that to Kobe.
Oldtimer says
This s and t with Mavs which include Pacers, does it mean we get back the future 2nd d/p traded with RH. If not, why should Lakers help Mavs to obtain more cap room ti sign Lin, isn’t that the objective of cap space. They took a gamble on DeAndre, so be it you have no more money.
Another chatter going on Lin and Hill are on s&t with the Bulls. Wow, that is something creative from Mitch to convert lemons into lemonade.
Of course, there is doubt on new picks because we don’t know them that well. Lou Williams is not Swaggy P. Louis got the sixth player award while Young could not lead the Laker bench mob. Roy Hibbert a tall, lanky Center who moves like an aircraft carrier is a vast improvement compared to last season where we have 4 to 5 PF acting as C. Russell is a great passer PG, Randle is a mid range shooter, well that is College basketball, don’t know if they are that good in NBA. At least, with Clarkson and Black, we know they are capable to blend and excel on their positions but not with our untried rookies. To put them on starter role is just putting the cart ahead of the horse. There were NCAA phenom whom I thought they were great like GilChrist, Hansbrough, Croft, Anderson (Bruins), Exum, Smart, Bennett, Zeller, Porter Gordon Vonleh etc. they are there at the end of the bench still acclimatizing to NBA culture. This could happen to our rookies, they need tolearn from Vets that this is 82 game season as if you are playing in March Madness in every game. You can’t afford to Make lot of TO’s or else you are demoted to DLeague. Therefore, we will know. Randle and Russell progress after 1st 20 Games. While learning their ropes, the team need to win in every game to gain momentum.
tankyou says
@Justin, I think your appraisal is pretty fair, 35 wins seems possible. I say 30 wins, with 5 extra wins possible if Randle really starts pouring it on by the second half of the season. I’m still high on him, and think he is our best hope by a longshot. I’m just hoping Russel’s O can be decent as a rookie, to offset his limited Defense and of course he’s a young guy and will have a lot to learn regardless.
@Oldtimer, This S&T possibly for the Mavs would not be to help them out, I thought we needed it to help deal with all this salary we are taking on this year, Hibbert’s and Williams alone is what 23million, plus whatever Brandon Bass is going to get. Clearly the lakers are going to be looking for reciprocity in any S&T not doing it to befriend Cuban.
KenOak says
Man. I’m getting that super excited feeling again…40 wins. That’s all I need to feel good about this team. Just give me 40 wins!
http://www.tout.com/m/yzd971?ref=tw7dvd2t
*edit
Can you imagine practicing under all those banners and jerseys!? Man that has to be a rush for the young’uns.
Craig W. says
With Hibbert our 3pt defense should drastically improve, because our guys can close-out without worrying that their man may get a path to the basket. We have the rim protected.
That means less pressure on our newbies.
George says
@Todd: A sound rebuttal is that these are stats from last year’s team and we will essentially have a totally new team in place this season. That is both a good thing and a bad thing. Good in the sense that I think these stats will improve because we are dealing with better players – even better in that Randle, Russell and to a lesser degree Clarkson are wild cards with the potential to be real difference makers (in time). But bad in the sense that it isn’t a given that things mesh perfectly in year one of getting everyone together.
___
Agree our young Lakers need time to grow. Which is partly why we see legitimate NBA player acquisitions this off season in an effort to take the pressure off Randle, Russell and Clarkson. I don’t think any of them (Hibbert, Bass and Williams) will drastically change the trajectory of our season but they’ll keep us in games – which wasn’t always the case with last year’s roster.
I think the FO badly misjudged the free agent market this year. In retrospect I think they would agree that they should have tried to have acquired at least one young talent to add to the core.
While I’m sure the FO has visions of Kevin Durant in their heads I don’t think we will make enough progress to attract him. I’d like to avoid another Aldridge embarrassment, if possible. I hope it’s obvious what Durant is going to do (which team he will go to) so we can target someone that a) we can get and b) fits from a timeline and talent perspective.
My gut says we win 32 games this year. Enough for the FO to breathe a sigh of relief about avoiding a third straight season of historic futility, but not enough that there won’t need to be an infusion of new talent. The NBA is very much a crawl, walk then run league. No reason to think that our rebuild will be any different.
As for what Jeanie will do with Jim – who knows. Jim was silly to put a deadline out there. He’s an owner so what difference does it make what any of us say. While I agree that it makes the most sense that he just be an ‘owner’ and relinquish the day to day to ‘basketball people’ I think that horse has left the barn. We’ll see if Jeanie offers him a lifeline as we get near the deadline – interesting to see if Jim takes it.
Kevin says
Craig W.: With Hibbert our 3pt defense should drastically improve, because our guys can close-out without worrying that their man may get a path to the basket. We have the rim protected.
—-
Hibbert averaged 3 fouls per 25 minutes played last season. If he is our only option down low we will need to keep him on the floor and out of foul trouble. I might argue we need to play better wing defense to keep him from picking up un-ncessary fouls.
I have mixed feelings about Hibbert. We passed on a much better version of him in the draft (Okafor) because we envisioned a large center to be a bad fit with the basketball currently being played in the league. I believe that is what Larry Bird felt in Indiana as well. So we are back tracking to a degree with his acquisition (partly because we had precious few options to play the post).
I’m willing to give Hibbert a try but I think it’s telling that Bird let him go. Plus if you look at his career mpg averages – we are going to need a serviceable backup for 20 – 25 minutes a game – who will do that, Sacre?
mud says
pressure turns a lump of carbon into a diamond, and turns a dirt clod into sand….
chibi says
“He’s a stretch four now and can shoot it,” Clarkson said of Randle. “When he gets the ball off the rim, he’s pushing it as well too. It will open up a lot of things in terms of that. He can iso guys on the post. When you throw it in there, most times he’s getting the buckets. It will open up the game a lot for us.”
T. Rogers says
Edge is thinking along the same lines I am. The Lakers won 21 games last season. Could they really won 30? Probably. Surely they gave away some games last season. We saw it with the screwy line ups and such the second half of the season.
With some of the vets in tow could this team sniff .500 next season? I guess it all depends on injuries ( or lack thereof hopefully).
Brian P. says
Not a valuable comment, but we should really focus on trading for Chandler Parsons. That guy will solve all of our recruiting woes.
LakerGMC says
Good to see Darius added Anthony, I’ve always enjoyed his twitter takes.
Jayelvee says
Thanks all for the great read. It’s been a long time that we’ve had something to be excited about. Hoping all our guys exceed expectations and their potential. Looking forward to a promising season. For old times sake…”For Warren”. Go Lakers!
Robert says
Todd: A very long post, however I see that you are mostly on target with your concluding paragraph. I like the Jerry West reference. However, I say mostly, because there can be no ceremonial role.
George: “basketball people” Nice one.
Moves: Need to get the details later this week. Will we have more picks or less picks (current count at minus 2)?
Aaron says
Great Kelly Dwyer piece…
Laker fans. Listen to me. This is what you want.
Where did you think you were going with a 30-year old LaMarcus Aldridge, Kobe on no legs and one arm, and a 19-year old point guard? Why would you think this would be anything more than a 30 win team in the West? Why in the hell would Kevin Durant leave Russell Westbrook and Serge Ibaka behind to join 31-year old LaMarcus Aldridge, 20-year old D’Angelo Russell, and a power forward in Julius Randle that plays the same position as LaMarcus?
On top of that, if the Lakers fall out of the top three in the lottery next season, the team’s first-round draft pick goes to Philadelphia. Wouldn’t the whole point of signing an Aldridge basically gift Philly that draft pick?
This is the West. The Thunder had Russell Westbrook playing at an MVP level for a heavy chunk of the season, it had Kevin Durant for long enough and Ibaka for even longer and it still missed the playoffs with 45 wins. Did you really think adding LaMarcus Aldridge, Russell, and 37-year old Kobe was going to make the difference between 21 and 46 wins? With Byron Scott coaching? Come on.
This offseason did you a favor, Laker fans.
You’re going to have to be terrible again, in 2015-16. You’re going to have to put up with Time Warner Cable and whatever Carlos Boozer-types the team hires for a single year. It’s going to be awful to watch Kobe go out this way, but this is what YouTube is for.
(And, seriously: Last year you signed Carlos Boozer. This year you traded absolutely nothing for Roy Hibbert. I’d say things are looking up.)
You’ll then get to enter the 2016 offseason with Randle, with Russell, with another high end draft pick should the lottery go your way, and possibly more cap space than any other team. And all that, “Los Angeles as a draw doesn’t matter anymore”-nonsense that was batted around in the summer of 2015 will be stomped to pieces in the summer of 2016. Los Angeles will always be a draw, and there’s a reason why Aldridge gave your crappy 21-win team two visits before deciding on San Antonio.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/your-winners-and-losers-from-the-nba-s-2015-free-agent-turn-225441763.html
Aaron says
Everyone turn on NBATV and watch the sixers summer league game. How did NBA scouts think Okafor was a top ten pick? He is ever fatter than college and doesn’t look like he can ever be an NBA starting center. He looks like a retired PF from the 80’s.
Mikey K. says
RANDLE’S RIGHT HAND DRIBBLE ?
Does ANYONE know if Randle was working on his right hand dribble during his rehab ? Darius ? Anyone ?
Not to be obscure, but Randle’s left is sick, and he has that spin move going left down pat, but I was wondering if he has developed his right. It seemed to me that with an adequate right as an option, Randle would essentially have his ticket punched as a 15-18 ppg scorer who lives on the line on drives alone. But as of finishing at Kentucky, he had virtually no right… so any news ?
Thanks in advance.
Shaun says
As pissed as i was with the pick i got to agree with Aaron …. its only the first summer league game but okafor looks pretty bad …. offense is ok …but defense is really bad and it seems lile it might just be effort … seems like he is not trying on D at all …. but at the same time hes playing with the scrubbiest of the scrubs on the sixers so it could be the talent around him
KenOak says
God. Spurs just picked up David West too. For the vet minimum… Duncan will have an opportunity to play on a contender for the next 5 years if he wants.
Craig W. says
Kevin,
One reason I am going to Las Vegas is to see Robert Upshaw play. If things go well, he could play a few minutes behind Hibbert and Black.
I don’t look at Hibbert as any kind of savior, but a serviceable defensive big on a team with real defensive needs.
Terry says
If Upshaw blows up during summer league and another team, with cap space, offers $20 mil over 4 years will the Lakers be able to keep him. It would be funny (in a bad way) for the Lakers, who need talent, to lose out on a kid they really want for the future because they gave Lou Williams $7 mil a year.
Vasheed says
One of the issues the Lakers had with Okafor during his workout was that he got fatigued. I would assume he will eventually get into shape.
@Kevin
Apples to Oranges. Okafor is offensive force with so so so defense. Hibbert is a defensive force with so so offense. I also think Upshaw may very well be a better talent than Okafor with excellent defense and better offense than Hibbert. It is a lot easier to build up a team’s defense with a defensive Center than trying to shore up the defense everywhere else. Hibbert doesn’t fit into Bird’s vision for the Pacers but, it wasn’t that long ago Hibbert anchored one of the best defenses in the NBA. I suspect Okafor could be a really good center but I prefer the path the Lakers went.
Mid-Wilshire says
Mikey K.,
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2015/7/6/8890965/la-lakers-summer-league-las-vegas-roster-preview
Above is a link to an article on the Lakers’ Summer League team. It has video of Larry Nance, Jr., Anthony Brown, D’Angelo Russell, Jordan Clarkson, and Julius Randle. Click on the link and scroll down until you get to the video on Julius. (It’s from a pre-season game against Portland in which he went for 17 & 8. He looks great and it shows him using his right quite a bit. Bear in mind, this is almost a year old.)
This is very encouraging. Enjoy.
George says
Okafor had a nice debut for Philly 20 points 9 boards and 2 blocks.
Mid-Wilshire says
The link that I sent to Mikey K. also has video on Robert Upshaw’s abbreviated season at U. of Washington. He sure looks good to me.
Craig W., safe travels. I expect a full report from you on our Summer League team.
Terry, I doubt than anyone is going to give Upshaw some outrageous offer. Most teams are just about maxed out by this time in terms of cap space and rookies who aren’t drafted are, I believe, slotted into a specific salary range (around $550K). Please check that, though. I could be a little off.
Also, most teams appear to be wary of Upshaw. Apparently, they don’t think he can stay clean. He certainly has to do that. And he has to ball. One misstep and he’s gone. We shall see what happens.
R says
Upshaw was dropped by not one but two college programs – substance abuse issues right? If so, I would not count on him having fewer problems in the NBA.
There’s that, and then our talented young core duo of potential superstars have about 15 minutes of NBA experience between them. Folks, don’t get your hopes up, it could be a looooooong season.
Aaron says
Shaun,
Yea… It was the fact he looks like a slightly taller Boris Diaw. He looked bad playing against guys who are bad PFs. You can see he has elite coordination and if he was dedicated to basketball at all he would have been a good player. But he is just too slow and can’t move.
RoelC says
This is how the roster looks like at the moment:
1-2 : Russel / Clarkson / Williams
2-3 : Bryant / Young / Brown
4 : Nance / Black / Bass
5 : Hibbert / Sacre / Upshaw
Oldtimer says
George – with regards to the owners who are also active in the operations of the business, I’d ask why and what for if not for ego? I am sure this statement tantamount fall into the purgatory of moderation since I’m attacking the First Family of the Lakers. IMO, No need of giving timetable to one self, it is an honorable gesture to give the reins to the professionals. Mitch needs a company who would give him some form of leadership and attune the recruiting aspect to 21st century standard. Paul Allen is a billionaire who made a fortune in dot com industry, the same with Steve Ballmer former CEO of Microsoft, yet they let their managers run the day-to-day operations. Jim and Jeanie will gain more respect from the fans and their peers if they stay on the Lakers sidelines as members of the board.
I read that a lot of posters are not fully convinced on Lou Williams. This player is 6’1″ in height but he could be little “Kobe” where the offense runs through him. Currently, he is in the top 50 offensive players in NBA and that 21M for three years is a steal. Secondly, lots of criticism lodged against Hibbert. He is the only choice on July 4th and far better than DeAndre on FT line. Everybody notices DeAndre defense yet they ignore his major deficiency which became the focal point of offense against the Clips. I won’t blame Paul for getting upset and if DeAndre was playing during the Showtime era, he would be benched for that handicap. Well, Hibbert excel in that area plus his presence in the low post. If Russell is such a great passer, he will find Hibbert and that will be an easy two than jacking up shots on the perimeter ala’ Dantoni. The sad part, we lost Ed Davis who is a nice complement of RH.
I for one is one of the harshest critic of the FO during the moment of silence waiting for LaM and DJ, Monroe, Harris disappeared without any response from Mitch, however the batting average suddenly zoomed up when he was able to trade with a leprechaun to get a 7’2″ followed by two more. I think they deserve kudos for such creativity of going for Plan C. Lakers are now maxed in the caps, heMitch is still wheeling and dealing for Young, Kelly and Sacre. I wish we can give Swaggy P a second chance, unfortunately his contract is not worth to spend more on luxury taxes. The same is true for Kelly and Sacre who have raw talents that can be developed in due time. If Lakers hang on with Travis Knight, then they could tolerate the D of Kelly. On Sacre, do you remember Larry Spriggs with his muscular frame, he looked like Rob Sacre. Rob tried his best to help the Lakers unfortunately he has no role model among Laker Centers where he could pattern his game. Boozer uses his D by pushing opponents while Howard gets into rough play tactics..
R says
Okafor is/was totally annoyed the Lakers passed on him/the Sixers picked him. Some idiot journalist asked him about all the bigs the Sixers have and how it would work with him also in the mix and his reply was along the lines of ‘that’s something (Philly’s) gonna have to figure out’
In any event, it’s not our circus.
Baylor Fan says
This is a good post and topic. Is it possible that the reverse will happen and that the players will not feel pressure this season? For the first time in a few years, the core of the team will be back beyond next season. The team will not be constructed of players who are just salary cap fillers. I think there will be much more pressure on Scott to show he deserves to be the head coach beyond next season. To that end, the veterans FAs the Lakers bring in will be important to help Scott win enough games to keep his job.
chris henderson says
Darius, can we get a schedule (or link) for the summer games? will they be on time-warner cable?
thanks!
bluehill says
Where the Lakers are in the championship cycle (rebuilding) does have advantages besides high draft picks. Teams that are in the win now mode (e.g Cavs, Spurs, Mavs) are acquiring experienced vets to get them over the top. That means that younger, potentially promising players are being cleared out to make room, which makes sense because they are unlikely to contribute right away. We traded Marc Gasol to get his brother Pau because Kobe and the rest of team were good enough to win with Pau.
I think Mitch shines in these situations. It’s too bad the early part of the FA season was wasted chasing long-shot, high-profile FAs. Would have been interesting to see what Mitch could have gotten.
I would expect that additional opportunities will come up before the trade deadline as these teams see how their seasons are going and try to acquire additional pieces. I also think there will be some salary dumps as some teams perform worse than expected and decided to shed some more established players. Mitch has picked up some players that can contribute both as players to our team and help us as trade assets. Kudos to him for salvaging this FA season. Look forward to seeing what else he can pull off.
Ed says
I will get a better idea about the potential of the young core after Summer League. Still waiting for a 3 and D SF to fill out the roster and see who leaves. Hibbert is in his contract year,a big incentive to get his body and mind in top shape. Both JO and KAT will be in LV,should be interesting.
tankyou says
Honestly, until I see the new guys actually compete in the regular season, its too hard to tell what’s going to happen. Summer league superstars often still spend plenty of time in the D-League.
I’m at least happy they they are starting to build a team that can at least compete a little bit, rather than just lose epically. I still think 30-35 is about best they do this season, the West hasn’t gotten that much worse. Wolves will be better, only team that will most likely be worse is the Trailblazers, but they still are better than us.
People will still whine about wining 30 doesn’t mean anything, and how we will just lose out on a shot at a top 3 draft pick. But we need to move in the right direction (winning direction) we can’t merely have some young guys put up empty stats on a horrible team (Clarkson the end of last season).
People really give Byron Scott a major pass b/c the talent level was low. But seriously do people watch the game, and his horrible decisions and HORRIBLE rotations!?! He overplayed the hell out of Kobe and basically didn’t give him any back-to-back rests until he was injured or physically unwell. He didn’t ride the hot hand, often times benching Lin/Ed Davis even when they were doing amazingly well. He experimented with guys like Kelly/Sacre that had no right to be starting on a NBA team, even the lowly Lakers. His public comments were typically demeaning to his players on a regular basis. He has not history of developing anybody, Cavs were a good example. His offensive system is a joke, and he clearly believe Math is a soft science. He talks up how defensive minded he is, while his teams always suck at D, and he shows almost not creativity in defending teams, making no adjustments–just yelling play harder, or be tougher. Scott is a dinosaur, and he’s not a players coach either, and he’s not a development coach either. We need a new system, and someone that uses smart match-ups and zone when needed. We need an offensive system that spreads the floor more and actually looks to use the Corner 3 pointer. Unless our guys are shooting 50% from long 2 range, they need to give up on trying to lead the league in long 2’s its patently irrational unless you are trying to lose on purpose. Please pay Byron Scott to go to the clubs and enjoy his retirement after this season is over.
tankyou says
Sign & Trade possiblity with Jeremy Lin and Dallas. Maybe we could get a sweetener of the Mavs top 7 protected pick. We still have a great chance of being a bottom 7 team, maybe less of of bottom 3. If that would work, maybe we take on Felton for 1 year, but gain another pick out of the deal?
Craig W. says
chris henderson,
Yes, the games are on Time Warner Sports channel.
Ramona Shelbourne put it best on the Mason & Ireland show. The Laker front office made the cardinal mistake of over-promising and under-delivering. That is what you get when you set expectations on LWA and get Hibbert, whether that may be in the best long-term interest of the team or not. This may not turn out to be a bad free-agent summer, but it wasn’t a franchise-changing one and it left the Laker PR in tatters.
This was a perfect summer for those who want to take every opportunity to bash our organization. A major gaff and they become lower than dog leavings.
Shaun says
tankyou …. hard to know if those were all stealth tanking moves …. but it will be interesting to see who will be in the starting 5
Will Kobe play the 3 or start at the 2
Will clarkson start or will lou williams
Will randle play the 3 or 4
Will Scott start his New Orleans guy B.Bass
Who will be the 1st big off the bench
Still lots of questions but looking forward to our first summer league game …. given the main guys on our team will all be in the league it would be great to see them kill other teams in SL
Oldtimer says
Tank You, remember the role of Byron last season is to show semblance of competition then lose the game in the last five minutes. Some fans are happy in losing to protect the pick, therefore we can’t really make any good reading to interpret the moribund season. We got R & R as a result of being a poor team,of which many longtime watchers could not admit in their conscience to witness the degradation of this brand. It defies Laker tradition and passion to compete in good times and in bad, even during the time of chise’ Cebalos/Jones/Van Exel, Lakers would play their best every night. Well, last year how irresponsible our players were to have fun in losing and treat winning with wild celebration from Hill, Lin and Young laughing and mocking injured Kobe. These guys don’t have the heart of the Lakers, a bunch of journeymen working for their contract. I was critical of the Buss Family because they allowed this kind of culture to prevail without realizing the painstaking effort of their legendary Dad, when he established this team’s image in the Southland from scratch with the sacrifices of people behind him like: Chick, Jerry West and Bill Sharman, Showtime players, the old, old school who never entertained losing in order to improve the chances in trading or getting a good pick next season.
I would like comment further on tanking which I read in several posts maybe from youthful fans who are fascinated by fantasies of1st round draft rookies. I wish they learn some lessons from this FA season why Lakers was no longer the team of destination. They have the money but has an image of a disarray team. The more they tank, the greater the chances their high draft picks like Randle and Russell or Clarkson will move to another team when their rookie contract expires. In any sport, nobody cheers for the losers except the cheaters themselves and naysayers.
anyonemouse says
Completely agree with tankyou. All this chatter about Upshaw is a little premature. There’s a lot of summer league superstars who never make it to the NBA. I’m waiting more for the pre-season, when we’ll get a better sense of how good the young ones are.
Also, not sold on Byron either. I’m guessing we give him the first 30 games or so, and go hard after Thibodeau (who may not be the best coach for this crew either, but he’ll have them playing D hard).
anyonemouse says
There’s chatter about a combo of Hill and Young to Chicago for someone. is that even possible? I thought S-and-Ts cannot be combined with other players in trades?
Todd says
Craig W.: This was a perfect summer for those who want to take every opportunity to bash our organization.
__
I have been critical of our FO, specifically Jim Buss, because the facts have warranted it. We are where we are as an organization because of the decisions he has made. There is no need to re-hash them here but if Jim is responsible for basketball operations, and the team has had historic futility on the floor, where do you think the focus of our concern should be?
Last year when ESPN rated the Lakers in the bottom 5 of every conceivable organizational ranking (Management, Coaching, Analytics, etc..) you said it was just the sports media looking for eyeballs/clicks. However, the feedback from Jim’s embarrassing meeting with LA revealed that those rankings may have been truthful after all. The Lakers are an organization that has refused to embrace the future and has clung to the past to it’s detriment.
Even Jeanie went out of her way to target Jim in an ESPN article that hit right in the middle of free agent recruiting. She said that its all on Jim and he has two years to fix it or he’s gone. Not the picture of an organizational harmony or stability.
The future of the Lakers lies beyond Jim Buss. The sooner we get there the better.
Justin says
I think people are expecting way too much from Upshaw. I promise you no team is offering a 4 year $20 million offer to him no matter what happens. At best he would get a 1 and 1 offer on the cheap. Lakers if they offer him a contract will be a minimum deal, regardless of how he looks in summer league. The reason being that he has had serious issues in college. No one wants to deal with a Larry Sanders (who by the way is available and possibly playing in summer league). I would love for Upshaw to fix his life but people who are expecting big things need to stop. In the best case scenario he doesn’t even help the Lakers for three years and has his life on track.
@Aaron, I still believe there is no way the Lakers are a bottom three team by record. But even if they are, they would have to hope one or two teams don’t jump them on selection night. Just look at the Knicks who dropped back to 4th. The odds are so low at either the 2 or 3 spot the Lakers would have to be the worst team in the league to really have good enough odds. So I hope they don’t tank because all they will do is give Philly a better pick. Yes winning 30-40 games won’t get them in the playoffs, but it will help them in the future with FA. Probably not in 2016 but in 2017 with a young rising core it will. And I would be fine with rebuilding with losses if the pick wasn’t top 3 protected. Nuggets will be bad, 76ers, Twolves, possibly Kings (enough coach best player issues to end in disaster), Knicks, and that is not accounting for a team that has major injuries. Too big of gamble this year.
Justin says
@Todd Let me defend Jim Buss a little. Jim is not the reason we are at the bottom of analytics. Yes he is the head of basketball operations. So he can get the blame sure. But if you fire him you aren’t getting a better analytics department. That falls on all 6 Buss kids since they are all owners (and mostly on Jeanie). And it sounds like Mitch and Byron and other Lakers in the FO don’t believe as much in analytics as other teams. Doesn’t matter if you have the best analytics department in the world. Until you believe in it and use it it is useless. I doubt Jim stepping down would change that. The best hope for change is that the whole LMA complaining about analytics in the meeting will open their eyes. Again a new guy (likely a promotion for Mitch) probably doesn’t change much in that regard.
I think Jim gets too much blame. If anything it is the organization as a whole that is to blame. They have won so much the traditional way, it will be hard for them to realize that they need to adapt. Jim is a scapegoat and his firing won’t change much. People seem to think all the problems are solved by removing one guy. The Lakers don’t need to fire Jim Buss, they need to, as an organization, realize the value of analytics.
By the way, what moves should have Jim made? People complain about him but realistically Jim’s only bad move was paying Kobe (which was a decent gamble that back fired). This is far different than say Jim Dolan who hurt the Knicks by making bad moves. The Lakers have yet to make a bad move that cripples them going forward. The Lakers simply put had no choice but to be bad. When the new CBA hit the Lakers were over the cap and had aging players (of which they needed to win the last two championships). The Lakers having to rebuild is by league design. Every team has to go through it. And they have only been rebuilding for two years. Which team in the last two decades (excluding the Spurs who cheat the rules by convincing every player on their team to pay for less than their worth) has built a team in two years or less? And if you say the 2008 Celtics I will remind you they spent several years at the bottom building up assets for their trades.
lil pau says
I wonder what the odds are that Hibbert is a Laker on the last day of the season. While it’s true he fills a huge need for rim protection, given our timeline, I think he probably fills an even greater need as a tradable asset, both as a legitimate center (clips) but also as a salary dump for a team that has young players we want.
A useful cog and a potentially fantastic trade asset? Plus there’s a third benefit as well- substantiating the choice to draft Russell and find a big rather than drafting Okafor and find a guard/wing. And to think some here don’t believe the FO ever does anything right.
smokedaddy says
I was checking out the stats on the rim protectors. http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/
As has been mentioned, Hibbert is #3 at 1.84 pts saved per gm (2.62 per 36m). Also, I knew Boozer sucked, and Hill not much better. What surprised me was that Ed Davis also had negative #s. So, I’m feeling a little less worse about losing Davis. Of course, Black was no great shakes either in rim protection so the question is who else besides the great, substance abusing hope is there for the backup Center spot. Maybe small ball with Nance or Bass as our Green?
Stuart says
Not sure what to think about Okafor’s game yesterday: 20 points,9 boards and 2 blocks seems like a nice line. However, some here said he did it against weaker competition than he faced in college.
I guess we won’t know if we missed on the pick until we are well into this season. That’s what is so hard about this rebuild we really don’t know what we have. Optimistically, we are two to three years away. But if Randle or Russell don’t pan out we could be looking at a deeper hole.
That’s why I don’t understand why we didn’t target a younger player to help now but be there should we need longer to get this thing off the ground. I want to believe that last year was the absolute bottom and we’re heading in the right direction but it still feels like a steep climb from here.
Craig W. says
Stuart,
The thing about improvement is that it isn’t instantaneous, but when it starts you know it. Our experience with Clarkson, the reports on Randle, and the expectations of Russell, means there is real optimism that we will see a more coherent team this coming year.
With Hibbert taking the Bogut role, the Lakers may actually have a Golden State flavor – though probably not as good defensively. This does not mean they will contend, but that they may have a defined identity and really improve over the season.
This is what many of us are hoping for.
smokedaddy says
Dustin. Good points, esp on Upshaw. Re J Buss’ moves, lets not forget the Nash trade. I know it was applauded at the time, but that’s why an owner/manager gets paid. Ignore the hounds in the press & public and make an accurate, honest assessment of the team and its chances to really compete for a title. Don’t trad away valuable picks and assets unless we’re really on the verge of being in, say, the top five. Also, we didn’t want to believe what our ears we’re hearing coming from D Howard’s mouth. OTOH, we did get rid of Bynum at the right time along with Odom, so yes, this is not all on Jimmy. At least half of the problem is with the fans, the aversion to analytics from Mitch & Byron, and Jeannie’s general lack of interest in actual, real basketball.
Jeannie giving Jimmy 2 years reminds me of Obama giving his generals a 1 yr timeline to fight the Afghan war. The real world doesn’t work that way. The other side, meaning other teams & agents, plays on that and strategic, longer term opportunities are missed. Bad deals are made for short term gain. Either fire Jim or take off the timeline. I mean, what happens if we miss out on signing the big whale the next 2 years but the Hibbert trade pays dividends and the young guns are getting results and we’re moving up the standings? Jeannie and the sports writers seem to think this is black and white but its not. Its inherently messy
rr says
it left the Laker PR in tatters
—
It was already there and had been for awhile. The difference now is that even some of the hard-line FO defenders, here and elsewhere, are asking a few questions, although the Hibbert/Williams/BB acquisitions got some of them right back to toeing the line and telling the tale.
As to analytics, presuming it is a problem, it is an organizational one, going back to Phil. But it all comes back to the same thing: Jim runs Basketball Ops, so anything deficient about the team and Basketball Ops ultimately falls on him. Byron, Kobe,Young, FA recruitment, analytics, etc–all of that and anything else bothering people is ultimately Jim’s responsibility more than anyone else’s, and he even publicly set his own timetable for success. He underscored the point himself.
The team’s future rests on Russell, Randle, and what happens in FA in 2017. If those things don’t go well, I expect that Jim will be moved to a different job, Mitch will retire/consult, and Jeanie will put Ryan West and a young analytics type-guy from outside the organization in charge.
Todd says
Don’t you think that if Jeanie spoke with any outside candidates to replace Jim that they would have expectations that included enhanced analytics, better scouting, improved medical/training and enhanced player development?
And if the blame goes to all the Buss kids then why hasn’t Jeanie owned any of this in her many interviews. She always seems to find time to allude to Jim and his promise/timeline. There’s never any mention of “We as an organization need to do a better job across the board to help Jim do his job.”
If this is a Buss family fail and they are hanging Jim out to dry then we as fans are in for a long rough ride.
Anonymous says
Todd,
It is pretty clear IMO that Jeanie still resents the way the D’Antoni hire was handled and also resents the fact that Jim has put the hire on the Old Man. Those things come up whenever they sit down with Shelburne.
Mikey K. says
Mid-Wilshire – thanks. saw the beginning of the video. will check out the rest for the clips of Randle going right.
Justin says
@smokedaddy No the Nash trade is actually one of the better trades in the last few years. The problem is people see the results and then act like it was always a mistake. Let me explain, first no one even thought the Lakers could get in the Nash talks (as it was not mentioned until it happened). GMs are not infallible, they have more information than us but it isn’t like they can see the future. Remember the Knicks, Raptors nearly killed each other with the Laundry signing just to get him. And pretty much every GM thought it was a steal of a deal. The Lakers were looking at losing Ramon Sessions so it was a bleak outlook until the trade happened. Now you may think giving up all those assets was a big deal, but at the time they were believed to be in the late 20s. What GM wouldn’t give up a pair of late 20s picks to get an all star PG?
Now the big reason people overreact to the trade is the results. Let’s say the Lakers trade away three future first round picks to get Anthony Davis. Now in game number two he gets a career ending injury. The trade was not a mistake, it was bad luck. People will say Nash had a bad back (which he played through for like 10 years) and was old so of course he would get injured. Even if you account for that, you made a steal (most injuries even at that age should have only been ones that kept him out for a few games). I don’t hear anyone bad mouthing the Spurs going after LMA who is 30. Is he not more likely to get injured. Championships are hard to come by. You have to go all in at some point. The Lakers got Nash and Howard and were the favorites to win it all. That is never a bad GM move. If KG had a career ending injury for the Celtics after they drafted him people would have called that a horrible move, but it still wasn’t. If you play poker and you through away trash and end up with a full house with no one showing even a decent hand and then bet the farm, but still lose. You didn’t make a bad move, you just got unlucky.
As for Dwight, I think that was a decent gamble. The guy never made up his mind in Orlando and when push came to shove, he accepted an extra year (which ended his chance to go to the Nets were he wanted to go). And if you think we could have gotten anything of value for him at the trade deadline what prove do you have? He had a three team list (with the Lakers being one of those teams) and a half of season left. Who is giving up a real asset for that rental? Also don’t forget the Lakers had the best record after the all star break. If you trade Howard, the Lakers instantly get worse in which they probably keep their pick (and thus draft someone in the horrible 2013 draft). That means the Lakers would still owe the Suns two picks.
George says
Well the Lakers FO woes won’t be solved this off season and not by any of us in any event.
Shifting gears: I am as pumped about Russell as any rookie I can remember. Very much looking forward to summer league.
Fern says
Read somewhere that Russell looked impresive on the 1st practice for summer league, elite passing skills its not me talking, Clarkson and Randle did.
Fern says
Jeannie didnt gave Jimbo a 2 year deadline, Jimbo did…
Craig W. says
Justin makes a far more balanced case about our front office than I do. I don’t think they have done a great job. I just feel some of the animosity on this blog is well beyond reason. The hate is there because things haven’t turned out well and Jim Buss isn’t Jerry Buss.
Also, analytics is something we need more of, but it isn’t the end-all, beat-all of NBA basketball. It is a tool that helps isolate and differentiate between players. If we are not using it we are at a disadvantage and should incorporate it going forward, but by itself it doesn’t make or break a front office. Also, There is ample evidence we do use analytics, we just don’t advertise it. The fact that we don’t use it in interviews is on the front office, however.
There are things to complain about, but they have also done pretty well in the draft – and that is not nothing. They have also moved to Plan C pretty quickly and effectively – and that is also not nothing.
Justin says
@Todd Why do you assume Jeanie would hire a candidate that they would have expectations that included enhanced analytics, better scouting, improved medical/training and enhanced player development? If she believes those are the problem now she would just hire them. She could easily go public about wanting Jim to use them more and the public pressure would likely force him to do it. No I don’t believe that the people in power realize that they should be out spending everyone on these types of things. They are doing business as usual and won’t change until Laker fans put enough pressure on them (which means they are a far bit away). On the good side I think you can build and win without those things (the Cavs were not built around much analytics, otherwise they would have traded for some of the analytic darlings to fill gaps instead of the guys they chose). Traditional scouting is still just as important as analytics (see Jerry West forcing the Warriors not to listen to the analytics guys and keep Thompson). Numbers are important, but do not factor in a lot (maybe in the future as they continue to get better, but I remember seeing analytics on Kobe shooting too much only to see the nest year the value Kobe brings to offensive rebounds by get this…shooting so much. Then there are papers on offensive rebounds being so valuable and then the you should ignore offensive rebounds and just get back on D papers. Analytics has a long ways to go is my point. It should only ever be a part of the tools you use, not the whole thing).
Kevin says
My issue with Jim isn’t just analytics. Although analytics are arguably as important in game prep as they are in personnel decisions.
My issue with Jim is his antiquated approach to team development. Rolling cap space forward is a good idea if you sign the elite FAs you are targeting. It’s a doomed strategy if you forgo meaningful talent acquisition expecting elites to come and they do not.
It’s been clear to the NBA that Jim’s plan of signing two elites and getting back to competitiveness in one summer is flawed. Elites want to join an existing winning situation not join a team to help create a winning situation. He hasn’t understood that fact and instead of prioritizing players that could help create an environment attractive to next year’s free agents he goes for broke and when turned down he fills the roster with back of the rotation players and rolls everything forward to try again next summer.
And for all the hubbub about Hibbert, Williams and Bass – they are all rotation guys – not frontline talent.
rr says
Don’t you think that if Jeanie spoke with any outside candidates to replace Jim that they would have expectations that included enhanced analytics, better scouting, improved medical/training and enhanced player development?
—
Todd,
Sure. Also, I think it is important to remember that Jim running the show is what Dr. Buss wanted, so even if Jeanie is not a fan of Jim’s in that role, she will want to let Jim play out his hand.
—
I just feel some of the animosity on this blog is well beyond reason. The hate is there because things haven’t turned out well and Jim Buss isn’t Jerry Buss.
—
The key word here is -feel-. For you, and for some folks over at other sites, defending the FO is a very emotional thing. And the so-called hate is there because the team is one of the worst in the league, still has outgoing draft picks, Jim’s big decisions have mostly all backfired, and the org has looked bad in public many times. Anyone in Jim’s position–Mitch, Ryan West, a guy brought in from outside the organization–would be on the hot seat with the same results and the same patterns.
Anonymous says
Justin: The overriding point about Jim’s efforts, that you have outlined, is that they did not work. No matter how good intentioned Jim’s moves have been at some point the bottom line of wins and losses have to matter.
rr says
By the way, what moves should have Jim made?
1. Not re-signed Nick Young for four years.
2. Only given Kobe either one year or a lot less money.
3. Many people have opposed all three of his coaching hires and most people have opposed at least one or two. None of them has really worked unless you see Byron either as a Tank Commander or as a Pawn in Jim’s Brilliant Game of Misdirection.
It gets more subjective after that, but you could add:
4. Not chased Anthony and Aldridge in FA.
4a. Kept Ed Davis
5. Not offered Pau an extension with a NTC.
6. Not brought back Jordan Hill.
7. Made an offer to Greg Monroe when he was a RFA.
8. Gotten something for Pau, Hill, and Kaman.
9. Held out to see if they could have given fewer picks for Steve Nash and walked away if not.
10. Not let Alex McKechnie and Ronnie Lester go.
4-10 are all very arguable and involve hypotheticals. 1-3 not so much.
Craig W. says
rr,
We are not defending the front office, but reacting to the somewhat hysterical idea that the house has burnt down and we aren’t doing anything right.
The Lakers have made progress, they just haven’t been able to get out of their own way and the media will always be there to fan the flames, because that is what media does with a franchise like the Lakers.
You mistake our being more moderate in our criticism for supporting everything the front office does.
rr says
but reacting to the somewhat hysterical idea that the house has burnt down
—-
The house has burnt down. The sky has fallen. The Lakers are at the bottom of the NBA heap and face a long, hard, uncertain road to get back on top. Is that all Jim Buss’ fault? No. But he is the person in charge, and pointing those things out is being neither hysterical nor hyperbolic. Also, some of the things the FO has done suggest that they are in denial about the team’s situation and think the house is still standing.
So, I would respectfully suggest that you apply one of your own memes to yourself: What we fans say is irrelevant. You can defend the FO all day if it makes you feel better, but unless Russell and Randle come up big, and unless there is a big FA score in 2017, it is almost certain that this iteration of Lakers’ management will be thrown under the, well, Buss.
bmcburney says
rr,
Really? If the Lakers had just avoided those moves how many more games would they have won last year or next?
rr says
Really? If the Lakers had just avoided those moves how many more games would they have won last year or next
—
Don’t know. But I do know that they are trying to move Young’s contract, that they could have been in play for two max FAs if Kobe were off the books right now, that no one seems to think that the Brown, D’Antoni, and Scott hires were all great ideas or worked out well, and that they are down some draft picks.
Like I said: 4-10 are all subjective and involve unknowables and hypotheticals. 1-3 are clearer, and I say that as someone who backed the D’Antoni hire.
But, again: the key now is Randle and Russell, so I personally will talk less about this stuff once we see those guys on the floor. And if Randle and Russell look really good, some of the negative talk about the FO will dissipate. If they don’t, it will get louder.
Mid-Wilshire says
To describe Roy Hibbert, Lou Williams, and Brandon Bass as mere “rotation players” as some have done, simply because they’re not 1st-Team All NBAers, might be a bit uncharitable.
Hibbert is actually a 2-time All Star and the 3rd-rated rim protector in the NBA. Lou Williams is the reigning NBA 6th Man of the year. Brandon Bass, in his last 3 years, has played 81, 82, and 82 games.
Do they have flaws? Absolutely. Not one is the 2nd coming of Julius Erving. But these players are not exactly end-of-the-bench scrubs, either. Think of it, in one 48-hour period (over the weekend) the Lakers solved the following problems:
1) They have given themselves Rim-Protection (which we have all been crying for ever since Wilt retired);
2) They have acquired a genuine, high-level if volume-shooting 6th Man who can ignite a Bench Mob in a heart beat (especially important if the Lakers dump Nick Young’s contract in 2-3 days); and
3) They have signed a 9-year veteran and iron man on the front line who has missed only 1 game in 3 years (think of the Lakers past injury problems for a moment) and who can serve as a superb mentor for Julius Randle while offering 11 points and 5-6 rebounds of his own in 27 minutes.
These are all good things. This may not be the summer of the Lakers’ dreams. But I believe that things are trending up. These all have the potential to be positive developments.
Now let’s sit back and enjoy Summer League which, for the 1st time in forever, could be interesting and even relevant to the Lakers’ future.
Justin says
@ Anonymous So if Jim made the same moves but instead Nash didn’t get an injury against the Blazers and the Lakers came together so Dwight stayed and then the next year they added a bench and won the championship would Jim be considered a great GM? That’s my point. If I build the house the right way and a tornado destroys it and someone else builds a house just throwing things together and by luck it holds up because eventhough the engineering is all wrong the resident doesn’t hit the the numerous structural weak points. So he is a master home builder and I should be fired.
rr says
Justin,
Jim may or may not be a really smart guy. Robert, who is tougher on the FO than anyone here, has never said that Jim is dumb. The point is that this is the NBA, so:
1. Not all decisions are going to work
but
2. Some of them have to, especially the big ones, or the guy making them takes the heat.
What happened with Howard was a lot of people’s faults, and at the same time, no one’s fault. But we know that Howard wanted to play for Phil, and we know that the guy who Jim picked to be the coach was unable to connect with Howard. So part of the Howard debacle is on the FO.
Justin says
@rr All of it is subjective.
1) Nick is now on what is consider a great deal. Players making under $7 million in the next two years will be guys who aren’t rotation players. As far as a problem it is beyond minor. Look up the any team and you will see a number of these level players as well. If he plays well at the start of the season he is value will skyrocket (shooter on a great contract in a league that loves shooting). If he isn’t forced to lead a unit his shot selection will be better and thus value goes up even more. Either way he will be very easy to move.
2) I said it at the time and I will say it again. It was a gamble and it failed. But it still didn’t effect them one bit. Besides needing to get to the salary floor (would have forced them to over pay guys like Jordan Hill by another $3 million each), they had max money. If your arguement is that they would have got LMA if they signed Chandler we know that wouldn’t have been enough. DAJ was never coming so again if you had more money, explain how it would have solved the problem. And just before you say Bledsoe I will remind you that doing that would have made the Lakers good enough to lose the Russell pick this year. Sure the team would have been more exciting but it wouldn’t help them win a championship any sooner.
3) Mike Brown was a decent coach and got the Lakers to the exact same spot as Phil did the year before (2nd Round). MDA is a good coach but you need the right players. Scott is a development coach. He knows how to develop CP3, Kyrie, and Clarkson. How appealing would the Lakers look if Clarkson didn’t develop the way he did. How Byron brings along Russell is the most important thing this year for the Lakers. Confidence and making players earn it how real value. Plus Phil didn’t want to coach (which is why he never coached even after he got passed over). Maybe he takes it, but no way he stays once it goes south and Phil would have needed time to teach the triangle. At best we would have Phil, Kobe and Howard right now.
4) I still think those are the right moves. Sorry if it hurts to be told no, but I don’t see it as a big deal. PR nightmare, but Lakers will still get meetings. On the plus side the Lakers will learn to bring up more of the basketball stuff to future meetings.
4a) umm why? Look at the analytical data on him. He is a negative defender. See this is what confuses me most about Laker fans. You claim you want the most advanced analytics and then always beg for players that go against analytics.
5) Again just a PR thing, but not a big deal either way.
6) The reason the Lakers paid so much was two reasons. One is the salary floor and the other is for trade purposes you had to have a guy making enough to trade for a big player but also be cut after the first year. If you want to do trades like the Pau Gasol one you need expendable contracts. It makes sense (and by the way Hibbert is that guy this year if something falls inn their lap).
7) Would have matches and give Detroit the ability to get better by trading him. Or Lakers get him and lose the Russell pick. Both suck for the Lakers because Monroe isn’t that good (meaning all star level).
8) Lakers tried but wanted a 1st round pick. Pau had no trade value as a rental that last year.And again that’s why they paid Hill they just didn’t find a taker.
9) He would have gone to the Knicks or Raptors, probably wouldn’t have had a career ending injury and the Lakers would have started tanking earlier. Probably end up with someone like Steve Adams (was the 2013 horrible draft). Wouldn’t have made much of a difference until next years pick.
10) Completely agree on Alex, Ronnie was more of a loyalty guy. Sucks to do that to him but Alex was a huge mistake.
Craig W. says
Sorry rr, but Howard and Nash were generally approved when they happened – those bloggers who opposed those moves can comment, but to keep repeating the same thing is tiresome – but most of us thought the Lakers had made an ‘end around’ and at least had a chance at a championship before Kobe rode off into the sunset.
Anyone can be tarred and feathered, if you only quote the things they did wrong. As I said, the big mistake Jim made was being Jerry’s son and having to follow him. I remember a really good coach – Gene Bartow – had to follow John Wooden. He simply didn’t have a chance. The program took 20 years to get back to the NCAA finals.
This isn’t to imply there haven’t been mistakes – or that Jim is the best owner and Mitch the best GM – but it is simply not true ‘the house has burned down’. Fanatics may say the Lakers aren’t what they once were, but they are simply not at the bottom of the heap, except in some bloggers’ minds. The franchise still has advantages over many other clubs, enabling them to come back faster.
Besides we have drafted pretty well.
14.1 says
Makes sense to me now why fans of other teams think Laker fans are entitled, arrogant, and obnoxious. It gets real tiring reading all the complaints about the FO. The 4-10 points are all hypothetical that COULD have backfired. If that had happened you would complained. If they had chased two max FAs last year, who do you think they could have gotten that would have turned this ship around in a year? We do not know what could or would have happened considering that we have a potentially better roster than last year with future prospects and we couldn’t even attract 1b (not top tier superstars like Durrant or AD) players like Aldridge and 2a players like DJ. We could have gotten whoever (Love, Melo?) and still had a bunch of nobodies to fill out the rest of the team and win a few more games and lose our pick this year. That would leave us in a longer rebuilding period. We would be even more miserable without any hope (our rooks) for the future.
The new CBA makes it hard to operate like in the past. Unless you are the Spurs and have jedi-mind trick all FAs into giving up 10 mill to play for 2 mill, the new rules make it so that every team will have to go through a rebuilding phase especially when their main superstar is about to retire and he’s the last one standing from those championship years. I agree with Justin, the moves made could have worked out if it wasn’t for the injuries and Howard being a headcase, but they didn’t. Let’s move forward. Folks who want to put the blame on the FO can and will spin anything (legitimate or not) into an argument. It just gets old.
Taking everything into perspective, the Lakers have enjoyed many many years and decades of success. This is the first time that they have to really rebuild from the ground up. Yes, we fans have suffered the last three, THREE years. Yes we are the Lakers and we expect the best, but as in life, there is a cycle to things. Expecting the Lakers to be good all the time for decades on end is unrealistic. It is however realistic that there will be down years due to injuries, change in rules (CBA), change in culture and access (Hollywood no longer rules, Twitter and social media is accessible to all even to those in Milwaukee), and general landscape of the league. We must adapt.
Having said all that I hate hate the coaching hires. All three coaches, the two Mikes and Byron were/are horrible. BS is not a good coach and will not be around for too long. That is my hope. I can harp on it or I can try and enjoy the team for what it is. As a Laker fan I think I am ok with suffering for 3 yrs if I see that there is hope on the horizon. I have never before been more excited about any of our rookie signing except for Bynum. I have never been more excited about the team moving on from the Kobe era and moving into a new “magic-like” era of Russell, Randle and Clarkson. I’m even excited about A. Brown, Nance and Upshaw. I am going to try my best to enjoy this season watching the rooks develop and grow and seeing where this team goes instead of focusing on and whining about past failures that we cannot change.
Go Lakers! Can’t wait till Friday and our first summer league game.
Todd says
@ Justin
Anonymous at 1:02 is me.
To answer your question, If the Nash trade works out and DHoward stays and the Lakers win a championship, then yes, Jim would rightly get credit for making a series of moves that were successful. But the moves did not work out and the NBA is not static- it moves forward. So when deals don’t work out you have to examine the opportunity costs involved and the resources that were used and lost.
You can’t say decisions that go wrong have no consequence because of variables beyond your control. Don’t we all wish those rules governed all our choices? Jim decisions have resulted in record futility on the court.
High draft picks are nice but in this case they are not the result of a shrewd trades – we earned them by losing 116 times these last two years. And to think we owe two of the next three 1st round picks as part of the debt caused by Jim recklessness.
Again, in the real world all we have to go on is the bottom line. In basketball wins and losses matter. Simply put the Lakers have not been winning.
Justin says
@ rr No clue if Jim is smart or not. I know he is not a good public speaker, but that has nothing to do with IQ. My point is the Nash and Dwight moves were great moves EVERY GM would have made. Yet he is being killed because of bad luck. I am fine with firing Jim, but the reasons people give are always wrong. If there is a story about how Jim is opposed to analytics or wanted to make dumb moves that Mitch stopped ok. But he should not be fired for making great moves that backfired.
And asking for a guy to lose his job is more than taking heat. The truth is that Jim has never been liked and therefore things that go wrong are chances to attack him. How many times have we heard the story about him hiring his bartender, or how he failed as a horse race owner, or how he is the son of Jerry Buss and that’s the only reason he got hired. I don’t like witch hunts. I am fine with people making most of the points you made in your list of ten even if I don’t agree with them. But really people are going after him because they are impatient and entitled. The Lakers like every other team have to go through a rebuild and that takes time. By the way Jim never gets credit for anything except the Bynum pick. Which if you look at the players afterwards was a steal. Pau Gasol trade happens after the Bynum pick. Yup no credit there. Trevor Ariza or Ron Artest, nope none. CP3 trade that the league voted.How is it that Mitch seems to get all the credit and Jim all the blame? I believe that Jim has been in charge since at least 2005. He has worked with Mitch to win 2 championships (the same way he works with Mitch to this day). The rise of analytics means Jim should incorporate them more. He should move forward.
smokedaddy says
Justin-
A few facts on the Nash deal.
-Nash was a 38 year old free agent at the time. He wanted a three year deal which the Suns refused to give him. The Lakers did. Three years for $27 mln. Yes, Toronto and New York were also flashing big $ at him.
-It gets better. As a restricted 38 yo free agent, Phoenix extracted 2 2nd round picks and two(2) first round picks. Lakers traded Lamar Odom to Mavs to enable the trade exception used to sign Nash.
Now, I know Nash kept himself in great shape, Dustin, but how many point guards aged 38-40 have there been in the league still playing at a high level in good health?
Defending this move by citing other GMs is a fail. I suppose you liked the Gail Goodrich trade from the then New Orleans Jazz point of view as well?
T. Rogers says
“The franchise still has advantages over many other clubs, enabling them to come back faster.”
—
In all seriousness, what are these advantages?
rr says
but they are simply not at the bottom of the heap,
—
Craig,
116 losses in two years, and they still owe two picks, one of which is only top-3 protected. The only team with a worse record in the West than they had last year was Minnesota, which has added Towns and has Wiggins. Very few people would say that Russell/Randle>Towns/Wiggins.
So sure, if you buy into the ideas that multiple max FAs are coming and Russell and Randle are going to be All-Stars, then, yes, the road back is not going to be that long, and you can argue that the Lakers are in better shape than, say, Denver, Brooklyn, New York, or Sacramento. But those outcomes are far from certain. Also, I backed the Howard trade and it was the right move, and you will see that it was not on my list of questionable moves.
One reason that you have to focus so much on fan behavior and media is that the facts are mostly not on your side when it comes to the team itself. This is a point that you should consider IMO.
Justin,
You seem new here, so I will just say this: you did a nice job of explaining away and rationalizing all of the FOs bad/questionable/puzzling moves.non-moves. I think you are mostly wrong on Young and Kobe, however. But that is for another day.
The key point is this: the FO will be doing a better job when their decisions no longer require lengthy, contextual explanations, full of possible alternative outcomes and convoluted back stories–because that means those decisions are working. No FO nails every decision, but good ones nail many of them.
The Jim Buss FO got hit by two things:
1. The Veto
2. Wanting to win one more title for Kobe and Dr. Buss causing a short-term mindset.
You can add the CBA if you like, but I am not as persuaded by that argument. That affects every team, one way or another. I also think the new media paradigm has played a role, but the Lakers need to adjust to both.
Dr, Buss, RIP, is gone. The coach, and every player currently under contract, were put there by the Jim Buss FO.
So we will see. The main thing to hope for now–for all of us–is that Craig et al do not have to explain the D’Angelo Russell pick next April when the season is over, because Russell will have shown us, learning curve and all, that he was the right choice.
Justin says
@ Todd but that makes no sense. If they are great moves they are great moves. Now if they were bad moves then you could say the results show us what a mistake we made. Again I don’t understand why this is so hard for people to understand. If you go to your job and do everything right and pull off stuff that no one else could and the company then goes under. Should you be seen as a failure and never get to work again? In the real world if you do something that is a good job and bad luck ruins it and you get fired, a good investor would hire you in a second and watch as the old company fell apart. That’s what the fans want perfection. It is an absurd standard.
If say we fire Jim and remove Mitch since most of these moves are his and Mitch gets hired by another team and they win a championship, not only would you back track and say we should never have gotten rid of Mitch but you would also be laughed at by all other fan bases (because you would be Viveck. The second things go wrong fire the coach). Team building takes time. Again no team has had a quick turn around. Not a single one in NBA history (that I can think of) built a contender in under three years but that’s what Laker fans are screaming for. I guess I really don’t get fans.
Todd says
@ Justin: Fair or not, in the real world results matter. I would risk another team hiring Jim.
Justin says
@ Todd So weird that you would rather have the worst GM in the league and just be lucky than the best (and no not claiming Jim/Mitch is, but I do think they are in the top 10). So you would take David Khan over Jerry West so long as you get a top 3 pick. Just be careful with that. Sooner or later Jerry will pull out Klay Thompsons and Kobe with late lottery picks while Khan will pass over Steph Curry two times to take Rubio. Luck will only last so long, but skill will last forever. That’s why the Lakers have such a long history of winning.
rr says
>>>If they had chased two max FAs last year, who do you think they could have gotten that would have turned this ship around in a year?
—
You are missing the points on this:
1. I didn’t say that is what I would have done. The point was that even though they have 40% of the cap committed to Kobe and Young, the FO was still focused on max FAs. If they wanted to do that, with the roster being so weak, then it would have been better to not have had Kobe and Young under contract so that they could go after two max FAs.
2. Jim specifically said that he wants to sign two max FAs. Mitch has specifically said that they are prioritizing rolling over cap space–“financial flexibility.”
So, it is not that people expect the team to be back in the Finals in five minutes. We just want to see coherent and reasonable moves made that seem to fit together as part of a plan, like for example, drafting Russell, bringing in Upshaw, and then picking up Hibbert. One may not agree with those moves per se, but taken together, they do make sense.
>>>We could have gotten whoever (Love, Melo?) and still had a bunch of nobodies to fill out the rest of the team and win a few more games and lose our pick this year.
Given that the FO offered Melo a max deal, this may not be your best defense.
>>>But really people are going after him because they are impatient and entitled.
That may be, but like I said, this kind of loaded rhetoric–impatient, entitled, hate, hysterical, whining–mostly stems from the fact that anyone defending the FO runs head-on into the facts soon enough.
rr says
T Rogers,
That is a big question, indeed.
Advantages:
Weather
Brand
Market
Celeb Lifestyle
History
Counterpoints:
Social media/internet reduces big market advantage/bling
Questions about quality of team management
State taxation
CBA incentivizes players staying put (although Howard, Jordan, Aldridge, and Monroe didn’t).
But mostly, the key is that the team is really bad, as we all know. And again, each guy is different. At some point , we need to hope that a big FA will Want To Be A Laker.
Chris J says
@Justin
Your attempt to spin it was laudable, but the Nash trade was horrific from its inception. You do not mortgage four future picks and nearly $30 million on a relic of a player who has severe injuries and was pushing 40 years old. The fact that the Lakers are still on the hook for that debacle years later makes it all the more painful.
Even if he had been healthy enough to take the floor for more than a couple dozen games over three seasons, adding Nash was never going to put the Lakers over the top of Oklahoma City, San Antonio or the Clippers –each of which had younger, better PGs at the time as well as better supporting casts.
The Lakers chances at No. 6 for Kobe ended when they blew that huge lead against Dallas in Game 1 of the playoff series in 2011. The Veto was the nail in the coffin, and many poor decisions made in the subsequent years have the Lakers where they are today.
Your “it was a good trade if not for how it worked out”-style argument is nonsense. Nash did not work, and the Lakers are still suffering from that decision.
J C says
I think Mitch forgot who he was dealing with.
I remember Larry Bird as being a cold-blooded assassin.
I doubt he’s doing us any favors “giving” us Hibbert.
Justin says
@Chris, they were the favorites by a long shot. They didn’t need to be better at PG when they had Kobe still in his prime, Pau and Bynum /Dwight. If they have no injuries and came together they would have won the championship (remember Dwight before his injury could make any team a top defensive team) and no one would have cared about the picks. Heck the Lakers gave away picks to get rid of Luke Walton and Fisher. You know why we don’t talk about those picks, because they were in the twenties. By the way if this bothers you, you should move away from the Lakers as a fan. That has always been their MO. From trades that go as far back as Magic, Kareem, Wilt to Kobe and Pau. Nash and Dwight was just the first time it backfired on the Lakers. Lakers traded an all star player in Norm Nixon for the rights to draft Byron Scott. Gail Goodrich a star player at the time left LA and because rules forced a team to give up an asset the Lakers ended up with a pick that turned into Magic. Lakers have always swung for the fences. I promise you the Lakers would make the Nash trade every time and I still say it is the right move. You say he had an injury history (true), he also was an all star. Lakers didn’t expect him to be an MVP anymore. But if you trade away two first and get an all star you do it. Every GM does. Plus they had Pau, Kobe, and Bynum (who was an all star and only 24 at the time and turned into Dwight before the season). The Lakers like all GMs and not fans realize just how hard it is to get star players. That’s why the Lakers chased Cousins. Russell and Randle may both be better than him, but Cousins is a known all star. Besides the fact that high draft picks bust all the time, you can get free agents if you have a star player. That’s why the Lakers went after Melo and LA. It has nothing to do with fit or age. LA gets a meeting with every player. Players would come to the Lakers in a second if they had a star player. If Russell or Randle ends up being an all star you watch how quickly the Lakers pick up FA.
Lakers value draft picks probably the least in the league. The reason being lottery is unpredictable. You have the Knicks falling back this year or the Cavs jumping 10 spots last year. Then once you draft a guy you still don’t actually know if he is good. GS went to the lottery 10 out of 11 years. Clippers were in and out of the lottery for a decade before CP3 went there. Nuggets have now been in and out of the lottery since the Melo trade. Teams that fall into the lottery don’t break out until they get extremely lucky. Look at the playoffs and how often the teams stay near the same. The reason is because maybe once every other year one teams gets a superstar. Fans think the draft nets them those players all the time. How many times do they deem the player the next great player. Yet make a list of the players in the last decade you really thought were superstars. Yes if you get a Curry, Davis, or Durant you have a future. The draft to this day is the worst way to build only fans don’t realize it. They see the cost saving all stars (which are great), but that doesn’t lead to championships. And championships are the only thing that matters to the Lakers.
My last point and I will try to make it one last time. The results are not important when based on luck. Let me give you a real world example. You have a doctor who is well known to be amoung the best surgeons in the world. You have another doctor who doesn’t exactly know what he is doing. You hear a story about their last patients, they were twins with the exact same problem. The by the book doctor treats one of the twins and performs the surgery. He does a procedure that seems impossible and everyone in the medical field is astounded with his work yet again. Two days later the patient dies. The death was caused by virus the patient picked up by the nurse before she knew she was sick. The other twin is treated by the other doctor. That doctor cuts the guy open and has no clue what he is doing. So he cuts blindly and seals him up. Somehow the patient lives. So now you have the exact same issue. Are you really going to the surgeon that cuts blindly? Do you really blame the good surgeon because bad luck was the issue? Can you not see that it would be best to always go with what is right despite the fact that some times luck intervenes?
How about this, Steve Jobs created Apple and had a ton of success. He then tried to make computers that were more expensive, better and with an artistic sense only the market was trending on cheap generic knock offs. So Jobs got fired from his own company. Years later after trying to do what the others did Apple was dying. So they got Jobs back and he made the exact same move. Made a computer more power and focused on form factor. And it took off. He did the exact same move years later because it was the right move. If you are results driven you will miss the big picture. By the way, you sound like every Hollywood exec. We made one movie that was original and it failed. So we won’t make anything but sequels.I hope that clarifies things up. So yes the Nash trade was absolutely a great trade that failed due to bad luck. I would do it again and so would the Lakers.