I don’t know if it is like this for Bulls’ fans, but Phil Jackson will always be that dude for a lot of Lakers fans. His two stints as Lakers’ coach led to seven trips to the NBA Finals and five Larry O’Brien trophies. It’s not that the man can never do wrong, it’s just that, when he does, it’s almost immediately written off or shrugged away because his history of doing so much right overwhelms it.
Basically, Phil being Phil has a way of being the overriding sentiment whenever he might do or say something Lakers’ fans might get really upset about if it were someone else saying it. His ties to the organization — not only as a former coach, but as the team governor’s/part owner’s fiancé — only add to this familial quality he possesses.
What does this have to do with anything? Well, as we all know, Phil has always had a way of just saying things to the press that don’t always fly so well with any number of listeners. And today, when talking to the NY Press in advance of the Knicks’ opening training camp, he was back at it, this time regarding Kobe Byrant and his future with the Lakers.
Phil, on Kobe: "I don't think this is his last year. Might be his last year as a Laker."
— Chris Herring (@Herring_NBA) September 25, 2015
Phil: "I think [Kobe] is going to be better than ppl think." He says he assumes there will offers on the table 4 him to continue his career.
— Chris Herring (@Herring_NBA) September 25, 2015
Okay then, Phil. Let’s unpack this a bit.
I too have openly wondered if this upcoming season will be Kobe’s last (I am not alone there, I know). I tend to think it will be for a variety of reasons, but considering he has deftly deferred further comment until after the season while historically being maniacally competitive, there are real reasons to doubt he would really retire at year’s end. I mean, raise your hand if you could see Kobe, after a good season and staying relatively healthy (knock on wood), decide he wants to play longer? (Everyone should have their hands up.)
None of this is groundbreaking, of course. The part which will likely have folks running for their keyboards and microphones to talk about is Phil saying it might be Kobe’s final year in the forum blue and gold and that other teams might be ready to offer him the type of money which would have him leave the Lakers.
This is where things get complicated. Ask most Lakers’ fans about the team’s cap space this upcoming summer and they’ll say they have a lot of it. The key to that monstrous amount of money the team will have to spend is that Kobe’s contract comes off the books. Those two statements combine to — and more than just sort of — imply that Kobe will not be back with the team next year. It’s just sort of assumed.
What Phil has done, then, is simply bring a megaphone to some of the conversations fans (and, I’m guessing some in the Lakers’ organization) have been having in hushed tones. No one really wants to speak out loud about the prospect of Kobe not retiring, yet not being a Laker. No one. Well, except Phil Jackson.
Well, and maybe Jim Buss. Remember, it was earlier this summer when Jim Buss essentially said that he was open to Kobe returning after this upcoming season but only if he was willing to accept the role the front office and coaches envisioned for him. As I wrote at the time, this was the first time anyone in the Lakers organization has ever even hinted at there being any sort of conditions for Kobe returning or that he might need to accept a reduced role if he does want to return. This remains a big deal.
So, is Phil doing more of his rabble-rousing or is he speaking some real truth about Kobe? Probably a bit of both. I think we’d all love to believe Kobe will be better than what many fans and analysts think he will be. It’s also important to note that when Phil says he believes there will be offers on the table, he could easily be talking about himself and the Knicks considering the trove of cash they’ll have to spend in free agency next summer. Laying that groundwork now by planting tiny seeds that could sprout into Kobe playing home games in Madison Square Garden isn’t just something I think Phil might do, it’s something he’s probably actually doing with these comments.
What does this mean for Lakers fans, though? In a way, nothing. Kobe is under contract for this year. The front office has already said they would welcome him back next year, but they would want to have a conversation with him about his role should he want to return. Anything beyond those two statements, is speculation of the highest order. It’s also worth mentioning again that Kobe may actually, you know, retire.
In any event, for me at least, I’m not really worried. Not because the prospect of things that Phil is saying aren’t real, but because I’m going to enjoy this upcoming season the best way that I can and not worry about things that will be decided 10 months from now. Also, because, well, for some fans — including this one — Phil Jackson is that dude.
Craig W. says
He may be ‘that dude’, but he is also not a Laker, but a Knick – both at the start of his career and now. This is a ‘mind game’ specialist. This is someone who has repeatedly taken veterans to championships, but – IMO – not always done so well developing young players; others have been responsible for that. This is someone who is a control freak of the highest order – see Jerry West.
Respect has been very well earned, however, the pedestal is not higher than the team. We fans must place our team at the top of our concerns. Be very careful when listening to Phil Jackson.
Darius Soriano says
Craig,
I disagree fully about Phil not developing young players. When he took over as Bulls’ coach, Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant were 2nd year players. They turned out pretty well. He also had B.J. Armstrong as a rookie and that guy ended up making an all-star team! Players like Devean George, Sasha, and Farmar all experienced good success under Phil and took steps forward in their careers under his guidance. The list of players who have grown their games under Phil is much longer than those who were stifled, for sure.
T. Rogers says
Happy belated 70th birthday to the Zen Master. I see he is a wily as ever. Phil is like that old college professor that tells so many great stories you know it all can’t be true. But he’s so compelling to listen to you don’t even care that he’s pulling your leg.
I have to agree with Darius that Phil did develop young players. Phil and his staff found Trevor Ariza wasting away on the bench in Orlando. The put him in a system and gave him a defined role that he still serves to this day. People talk about “3 and D” players being all the rage now. Phil and his staff were ahead the pack on that.
Also, the 2009 team had a stable of young players who were developed by Phil and staff. Farmar, Brown, Sasha, and Bynum were a big part of that team winning 65 games and the title. Farmar, Sasha, and Bynum were all drafted by the Lakers. And Brown, like Ariza, was taken from the end of another team’s bench. Phil and his staff did a great job finding roles for all of those guys and putting them in positions to succeed.
Baylor Fan says
This puts this season in a whole different perspective in regards to Kobe and the Lakers. This was supposed to be Kobe’s last season and therefore the Lakers are doing everything they can to send him off happy and fulfilled. To me, that means winning as many games as possible no matter the cost. Yet, it has always been true that Kobe will decide when he is ready to retire. If Phil is opening the door to the Knicks for Kobe, where does that put Jeannie who has insisted that Kobe will retire a Laker? It will be good to see Kobe back on the court again and I hope he plays well enough for these things to become issues.
james katt says
If Kobe continues with the Lakers, it cannot be at an insane price.
Kobe may be egomaniacal, but he has got to realize that there can be no success if he hogs the money.
What is he worth after this year? I’d say $7-9 Million a year tops. He is worth more than the mid-level extension.
Teams who vie for his services should realize that he won’t last a full 82 game season. Thus, you have to avoid over-paying him.
Kareeme says
Darius,
At the same time, Robert Horry’s insights into those Lakers team betray to some extent that Phil Jackson wasn’t really that involved in managing or supporting the rotational players. Then again, he selected assistant coaches who were themselves phenomenal in providing that support. I guess we tend to simplify the narratives around the accomplishments of coaches without giving ample credit to the supporting staff that they hand select and employ.
If the Knicks are going to throw down 25 million a year for Kobe at this stage in his career, there’s not much that we as a franchise can do. Then again, maybe that is Phil’s play, attempting to get the Lakers to overpay another round.
A Horse With No Name says
Phil “was” that guy. Now he is a 70 year old guy trying to keep himself and his bottom feeder team/organization relevant. The time for him, like for Kobe, is all but over. Just glad I will be spared a farewell Laker year for Phil. . . .
Snarky George says
I believe if he is healthy and provides a modicum of production that Kobe will want to play next year. I can’t see Kobe going elsewhere for one year (which is all Kobe can realistically hope for). I think Jeanie and Jim would gladly welcome Kobe back. Jeanie, because she loves Kobe and correctly wants him to be a lifelong Laker. Jim, because it will hide the fact that he won’t be able to keep our draft pick, sign any free agents of note or make any significant acquisitions.
Remember when the FO defended the decision of extending Kobe by saying “who else would they spend the money on?” Well that excuse will be used a lot next summer.
Of course signing Kobe for an additional season keeps the franchise in a sort of limbo for another year but the future belongs to the kids and they won’t be ready by 2016/17 season anyway. What this all points to is a harmonic convergence of major factors heading into the summer of 2017.
My predictions for that summer:
1) The sands of time finally run out on Jim and he steps back to being just an owner. So a new President of Basketball Operations will be named.
2) Mitch will retire as GM and will become a consultant to the franchise. So a new GM will be on board.
3) Kobe will have retired.
4) Byron Scott will be replaced. He was brought in to shepherd Kobe’s remaining years and with him gone it will be time for Scott to go as well. So we’ll have a new coach on the sidelines.
5) The kids will have proven their worth and top free agents will finally be attracted to the team’s play and the inspiring new coach and FO.
So the forecast for this year and next is moderate improvement on the floor with the ‘status quo’ everywhere else. However, the Summer of 2017 sees the Lakers breaking out and moving forward.
Goodness, we may even see the playoffs before the end of the decade.
Anonymous says
I missed the last thread so I’m posting this here.
___
I am skeptical about MWP making the team and contributing. He was on his last legs when the Lakers bought him out two years ago. He was even worse when he went to the Knicks. And his stay in China was not sufficient to re-kindle any interest from the NBA.
I think this is just a training camp invite. The Lakers FO want MWP to be on the floor and mentor Randle, Nance and Upshaw — kind of like what Kobe will be to Russell and Clarkson. That’s fine, as we are under the 20 player limit for camp. I doubt he makes the final roster as I believe his playing days are over.
Another, and more concerning, way to look at it is that the FO is feeling the pressure to win this year. I think they are in denial as our roster doesn’t project to more than 30 – 35 wins tops. However, let’s say that Jeannie and the other members of the board are worried about what another lackluster year will do to the money train that is TWC. (I’ve heard that TWC has not made money on the Lakers deal and that has created tension in their relationship with the team.)
The best course of action is to let the kids play and gain experience. But if there is pressure to win the vets may play more than they should. That will be a shame, as in my mind if the kids play a lot we’ll win 25 games — but we’ll be better for it next year. Playing the vets adds 5 – 10 victories but at what cost for the future?
LT Mitchell says
Jim Buss, along with the rest of us, has no clue as to how effective and healthy Kobe will be by the end of the season. That being the case, why would an owner publicly state that Kobe would have to return in a reduced role (AKA bench role)……before even seeing Kobe on the court? At least wait until the end of the season before deciding what Kobe’s potential role should be. This is just another head scratcher in a long list of head scratchers by Jimbo. Jim’s comment was not only disrespectful to a Laker legend, it was irresponsible. If Kobe ends up having a great season and wants to play another year, he almost has no choice but to change teams after the owner’s comments.
Phil must have been shaking his head with a wide grin when reading Jim’s comments, and I agree that Phil is planting the seed in case Kobe shows he has something left in the tank by the end of the season.
Joel says
However, the Summer of 2017 sees the Lakers breaking out and moving forward.
___
Amen!
Craig W. says
Snarky George,
Be careful what you wish for. Organizations simply don’t make big leaps forward when they undergo wholesale changes in coaching and front office. Because we replace Byron Scott doesn’t mean we get a better coach who fits the personnel better. Because Mitch steps down, doesn’t mean we get a more productive GM.
The Chinese proverb is as true today as it was when first uttered.
Craig W. says
Darius & Kareeme,
You are both correct. Phil must be given credit for the assistants he did hire.
I am biased in the Phil Jackson matter, because I just can’t put him on the pedestal others seem to. At the pinnacle of Laker history I put Jerry West and, since Phil Jackson took the crevice between Jerry Buss and Jerry West and turned it into a chasm, I simply cannot forgive what I feel is a tremendous loss to our organization. That will always be part of my accounting for Phil Jackson.
Snarky George says
Be careful what you wish for.
—-
If Jeanie keeps an ineffectual FO in place because she’s afraid she can’t do better, it would confirm what many fans already suspect — that the Buss kids are in over their heads. It’s time for the Lakers to dare to be great again. And it’s time to see if Jeanie is up to the task of leading them there.
PS: The Warriors weren’t afraid to make FO changes and they seemed to weather the storm fairly well.
Joel says
Craig W.:
The Lakers have finished with franchise worst records in consecutive seasons. Yes, we have some young talent — but we paid for them by losing 116 games these last two years.
What exactly are you clinging onto here?
rr says
Organizations simply don’t make big leaps forward when they undergo wholesale changes in coaching and front office.
___________________________
Stability certainly has value, but I expect that if you actually checked the facts, you would find that leaps forward often involve a coaching change and/or a FO change. For example, last year, Golden State hired Steve Kerr and Atlanta hired Mike Budenholzer. The Lakers moved forward when Phil came on board, both times.
But, really, the NBA remains a talent league, so until the Jim Buss FO brings in some elite talent and the Lakers are no longer one of the league’s bottom feeders, FO defense cases and the various appurtenances thereof (like bashing Phil and suggesting that FO changes won’t help) are largely exercises in rhetorical futility. As T Rogers succinctly put it, the Buss FO needs their decisions to start actually bearing fruit. Russell and Randle are the guys who can help the Jim Buss FO, not the people here and at other Laker sites who so energetically defend them (which is not to say opinions should not be shared).
rr says
The Phil/West thing was for me sort of a FO/coach version of Shaq/Kobe: ships can only have one captain and one captain-sized ego.
Justin says
@LT Mitchell, Everything I have heard is that is being told to future FA. The idea being that whomever the Lakers can get that is a superstar will be the face of the franchise and not have to worry about Kobe. If say Durant wants to come only if Kobe is gone so he can be the man, the Lakers have let it be known publicly they will do that. If Durant comes and wants to play with Kobe they have let Kobe know he will either have to let Durant star or not come back. And not just Durant, but whomever will be the next star in LA. The point being they are letting fans, the media, and future FA that Kobe doesn’t hold the cards. This is kinda the same thing they did with Kobe back in 2004 when they traded Shaq to keep him. They could have gotten more for Shaq if they would have waited longer, but Kobe was ready to sign with the Clippers.
Anonymous says
It’s not even about defending the front office anymore, it’s just real old and tired. Hearing the same old whine about the FO day in and day out, no matter what topic is discussed. It’s always, blame it on the FO. Dog days of summer for sure. I sometimes avoid coming here because I don’t want to see the same points being made again and again like a broken record or like a former poster here who use to post about Fisher all the time. Depressing. How many more days of FO rag do we need to discuss? 365? 400? 750 until 2017?
Vasheed says
I think what Kobe decides next year will be entirely dependent on what happens this year. If he goes out injured yet again I would assume retirement. If he is healthy and the team proves to pretty good this year then I would expect he signs back up for another year. If he is healthy all year and the team completely bombs than perhaps he looks elsewhere to take 1 more crack at that 6th ring.
I’m pretty happy with the team we have assembled. For all the distress over how bad this team will be, yet we are concerned with squeezing every last bit of talent into the 15 allotted roster spots. In other words we look pretty deep. It is a good start to the year.
Anonymous says
Justin– no worries as KD is not coming. The other notable FA is Horford who is a bad fit — although that might not prevent Jim from pursuing him.
Snarky George says
I come down on West’s side in the West /Phil argument. West was tired of running interference between Kobe and Shaq. He knew the Lakers needed a strong coach and Phil was available. West had to have been aware of Phil’s reputation of being a manipulative tool.
Phil comes on board settles the talent down and starts winning championships. Around this time he starts dating the owners daughter and notices that Dr. Buss is older, that Dr. Buss does’t fully appreciate West and that Jim Buss is definitely not his dad. So he sees a golden opportunity to oust West, neutralize Jim and bide his time until he could take over the Lakers.
Phil’s plan fell apart because he wouldn’t marry Jeanie. And that pissed of Dr. Buss and Jim as they saw that Phil was just using Jeanie as a means to take the team over.
Bottom line is that Jerry West should have never left the Lakers.
LKK says
If you ask me, PJ’s latest comments about Kobe can be seen as borderline tampering. What right has Phil to speculate about the future contractual possibilities for a player that is currently under contract to another team? All the speculation and prognostication in the world is not going to reveal Kobe’s future. We will just have to wait and see how this season goes for him and what he wants to do at the end of said season.
Anon says
I’m with the other Anon. The FO Bashers and FO Apologists have made me stay away pretty consistently the last 18 months or so. Its a real shame since all but maybe 2 or 3 of these folks actually have quite a lot of basketball knowledge and insights to share. Unfortunately, too many times I see the conversation go off track because these same knowledgeable/insightful people cannot let a Basher or Apologist make a silly unfounded comment without engaging them and then the conversation goes downhill from there to rehash the same Pro and Con arguments against Jim Buss, Jeannie, Phil, etc. I really wish people would just let it go. Most of the time, when you do not respond to a troll, they tend to go away – and when I mean do not respond, I mean do not say “you are wrong b/c…” or “you are so right b/c….” Frankly, if the post adds zero insight, just ignore it…. much like many of you will ignore this post and the ramblings of this tired old man.
Craig W. says
Vasheed,
Agreed! I am really looking forward to this year – and keeping my fingers crossed regarding injury issues.
Sure I would like to see a large jump in our win totals – last year was extremely depressing – but I really want to measure how our young players develop and learn. I love that we have so many youngsters, but also an experienced veteran at every position. With Kobe and Meta – in any capacity – I feel our leadership and defensive buy-in (include Hibbert here) will be strong.
Mister X says
The FO banter pro/con goes away when the team starts winning. Then the dialogue will be about the players
Right or wrong the Buss kids are polarizing. Are they ‘Peter O’Malley who provided capable stewardship for the Dodgers after his dad died. Or are they ‘Jim Dolan’, who took over for his dad and has darn near cratered the Knicks franchise.
In a hard cap league everything matters: coaching, drafting, cap management, trades, etc. — the FO manages all of those aspects. So it’s logical that at this time the FO would be under a certain amount of scrutiny.
Jim and Jeanie can make it go away by borrowing a line from Al Davis: ‘Just win, baby.’
Robert says
As everyone knows. I have the catch phrase for “years 21 + 22” trademark registered. Been talking abut this for years. Now Phil says it and voila – a whole thread about “years 21 + 22”.
Darius: I agree he is “that dude”. And I agree that he is under-rated in terms of player development. However – who cares – he has 13 rings !!!!! The amazing thing is that Phil replaced Pat as being “that dude” and that not easy to do.
rr says
Anon at 124 PM
Well, I’ll tell you something. I don’t think that Byron Scott is an especially good coach, and I think that the Lakers should have hired someone else. But I have heard more than enough about how Byron doesn’t like the three-pointer, runs tough practices, is out of touch, is not as smart as D’Antoni, needs to change etc. The guy had been coaching 13 years for three different franchises before he got the Lakers gig and is in his 50s, so all those traits of his that can be measured/observed were known well before he was hired and none of it should be a surprise to anyone who is reasonably well-informed.
Also, DS runs pieces about other stuff all the time, so you can talk about that, rather than complaining about the FO chatter. I am not all that interested in the “One Player, One Skill” series, but it is great with me if DS is and other people want to talk about it. Post and let post.
And of course Mister X is right. When a team is losing, the FO (and the coach) are going to get the scrutiny.
bleedpurplegold says
Well it is simple: kobe himself told the media that he would retire once not being able to play at an elite level. For as long as he can provide that, we should kot want him to leave, and if he cant anymore, he will go by himself.
Patrick Lanigan says
What does “player development” mean? Some young players have had success in a Phil Jackson system, while playing alongside the greatest players of their generation. How many of those young players ever experienced individual success after leaving the protection of Phil’s teams and the security of playing alongside top 25 all time talents?
Anonymous says
It is the summer. There are no games. So until then, it’s dull, boring, and unproductive to repeat the same thing over and over again until the season starts. We get it. Yes, you are the smartest and most knowledgeable one on this blog. You know everything and you are going to tell us this every day it’s the FO fault. Never heard that one before.