Records: Lakers 11-41, Last in the West; Spurs 42-8, 2nd in the West
Offensive ratings: Lakers 97.2, 29th in NBA; Spurs 109.2, 3rd in the NBA
Defensive ratings: Lakers 108.2, Last in the NBA; Spurs 94.7, 1st in the NBA
Projected Starting Lineups: Lakers: Clarkson, Williams, Kobe, Randle, Hibbert
Spurs: Parker, Danny Green, Kawhi, David West, LaMarcus Aldridge
The Lakers Coming in: The Lakers have won two games in a row, beating the Wolves in LA and the Pelicans in New Orleans to start this road trip. The wins were highlighted by strong play from Kobe Bryant, but he did not win these games on his own — not even the Wolves game where he posted a 38-5-5 line that was as throwback as they come.
No, the team has been getting good efforts from multiple players, especially offensively. Julius Randle has been a double-double machine while shooting a strong percentage, D’Angelo Russell has been doing good work in the post while also knocking down outside shots, Jordan Clarkson has been consistent and a top scoring option, and Lou Williams has provided efficient scoring by getting to the line and creating shots in isolation.
More to the point, this is the team many optimists saw as the best version of the Lakers for this season. Factors — up and down play from the youngsters, Kobe’s on and off health and struggles with finding his legs, not being able to compensate for really bad defense — has limited how often we have seen this type of play. But the team has gotten it these last two games and it’s led to wins and some entertaining basketball.
The Spurs Coming in: The Spurs are still viewed as the 2nd best team in the league, but a blowout loss at the hands of the Warriors and injuries to Tim Duncan and (now) Manu Ginobili have cemented that status rather than entertaining notions they might be close to the Warriors as league’s best. Right now they are not. There’s no shame in that, of course. But it’s also the reality.
Still, the Spurs continue to roll on, winning games and playing mostly well. Their depth on the wing is tested with Manu out while missing Duncan hurts their defense. Missing both hurts ball movement and fluidity on offense, turning the team into a more iso-heavy version of themselves as they rely on Kawhi and Aldridge to create shots for themselves. Still, having Parker orchestrate the offense and funnel the ball to Kawhi and LMA isn’t while having Danny Green spotting up off of them isn’t so bad. There’s probably 20+ teams in the league who would love to be able to have this as their base offense.
Spurs Blogs: 48 Minutes of Hell is smart and offers a unique perspective on covering the Spurs. Check them out.
Keys to game: As noted, the Lakers are playing better and the Spurs are a less ideal version of themselves. This might lead one to believe that this game could be a bit closer than the team’s records would imply. After all, the Lakers played the Spurs well for 3 quarters in their match up two weeks ago.
If you’re one of those people, sorry to rain on your parade, but these would be false assumptions. On Friday night the Spurs were leading the Mavs 62-26 at halftime. No, the Mavs aren’t the Lakers — they’re better — but the point is the Spurs still have a gear that the Lakers cannot touch even when playing at their best. The Lakers have been flirting with their best lately, but that likely still will not be good enough to keep the final margin any lower than a 10 point loss. There’s no shame in that.
Now that any hope of actually winning is out the window, the focus should really be on competing and carrying forward some of the positive play from the past two games. Against the Pelicans the Lakers actually had some strong defensive sequences, rotating well, covering for each other, and generally hustling all over the floor. They also started to incorporate some good ball movement into their offense and the players have clearly been comfortable in how they’re going to get shots within the flow of their schemes. Building on these positives would be more than enough for me in this game.
In terms of individual match ups, seeing how Kobe does against Kawhi will be interesting. Leonard is the reigning defensive player of the year and the league’s best defensive wing. Kobe has had lively legs lately and done good work, but can he do the same this game? Randle against either David West or LMA will be a good test. Aldridge isn’t as strong as West, but offers good length and knows how to avoid fouling. West is strong and smart, has good hands, and understands angles. I want to see if Randle can still get his game going against either. Clarkson vs. Parker and Lou vs. Green will also both be fun as both match ups are a bit of a look in the mirror for each guy (less so for Lou/Green, for sure).
Where you can watch: 5:30pm start time on TWC Sportsnet. Also listen on ESPN Radio 710AM Los Angeles.
Mid-Wilshire says
Good write up, Darius.
Clarkson, of course, is from San Antonio. He might be looking forward to this game. And he’s been playing well of late.
My hope is that the Lakers play hard and are competitive.
Go Lakers.
Robert says
With regard to the ESPN rankings: It is not just ESPN, but many (on this board as well) have Kobe under rated in the GOAT convo. Comparing guys from different eras is very difficult. That said comparing careers in my opinion should be based on accomplishment. So what does that mean.? In my opinion it means championships, awards, and achievement. If we simply say “I think this guy was better”, then the conversation totally breaks down. Older Knicks fans would say Bernard King was one of the greatest of all time. Crazy right? Yes – but there was a couple of nights at the Garden, where he was. Same with T-Mac fans. For that matter why stop there, you can have people say, “there was this dude at Rucker Park – man he was the greatest of all time”. So again – accomplishment is the key. So for starters, I have #1 as MJ, #2 as KAJ, and #3 as Kobe. Now I can understand a Magic argument over Kobe. I can understand Duncan as being close. Maybe Wilt – as a Laker fan. And LBJ “will be” in that convo. That is really about it for me. Players who played in the 50’s and 60’s played a different sport (sorry old timers, but it is like football without pads). I will give Wilt and Jerry a partial, because they did win a title during the somewhat modern era. Why do people bring up Bill Russell and not George Mikan? Why do Laker fans even do this? Mikan dominated a decade. So do we count the 50’s and 60’s or not – I do not but if you must, add Russell to the top group but only if you also add Mikan (he gets cheated on these lists for reasons unknown by Laker fans). Beyond that – I am not going to debate player for player, but let me just take one that many have higher than KB and compare him – Hakeem (this will show how Kobe would compare to many others). So let’s compare “careers”. Kobe has 5 championships and 7 trips to the Finals, to Hakeem’s 2. Kobe has 2 MVP’s of the finals – same as Hakeem. They each have one NBA MVP award. Kobe has 11 All NBA 1st Team selections and 15 overall selections. Hakeem has 6 and 12. For defensive selections, Kobe has 9 first team and 12 overall, while Hakeem has 5 and 9 (I selected Hakeem – because at least he has accomplishment here – anyone want to check Larry Bird’s record?). Kobe has 18 All Star nods to Hakeem’s 12 . And here is a VERY key stat. Kobe has been top 5 in the MVP voting 11 times to Hakeem’s 7. Kobe’s 11 times is second all time by the way (KAJ), which is a big reason why he should be in the top 5 minimum, in my opinion. This stat is the most objective there is. At the top of the league for the most years – what else is there? Anyone can please counter with some “objective” reasons for saying Hakeem is above Kobe. And somehow ESPN has 11 guys in front of him?!?!? I say “objective”, because if it is subjective, then – well – I knew a guy at Rucker Park : )
stats says
Robert – Appreciate the post and the reliance on semi-objective stats for comparisons. But your post just reminds me that Kobe has been completely ripped off on league MVPs, imo. I know I’m preaching to the choir, but he single handedly got some very lousy teams – arguably worse than even this years team – into the playoffs for a few years. Of course, when the teams were great, he had the share the glory and was discounted for MVP. But looking back on his 20 years and trying to be objective, it seems like only one MVP is a ripoff. LBJ has four already! And Nash has two! I’d love to hear from folks as to what years Kobe was deserving but didn’t get it.
As for tonight: don’t expect much. Hoping for some fight, particularly on the defensive end. Would particularly like to see Randle continue his trend; he’s growing by leaps and bounds. And to see more of Black; I like his hustle but he needs pt.
matt says
Anyone think grayson allen is gonna be a good pro
Mid-Wilshire says
Two nights ago (2/4/2016), Robert Upshaw (remember him?) scored 13 pts. (5-9 shooting, 3-3 FTs) and had 7 rebounds with 4 fouls in 17 minutes in a D League game.
He’s been ill but is back on the court and is looking much more mobile and active than he did last summer. He does get into foul trouble on occasion. And, of course, it’s only the D League.
Even so, I’m curious as to how much he will have improved by this summer. Only time will tell if he has a future in the NBA.
KevTheBold says
Thanks for the update.
I’m rooting for Upshaw.
I for one would welcome a total rookie and 2nd year starting lineup which could gel and grow together.
KenOak says
@Robert
I agree with pretty much your entire post above. I didn’t see the ESPN article, but when Kobe is ranked 11th….I don’t need to read it. Your comparison to Hakeem was very telling considering how many people try to rank him higher. As for Duncan. I just have to say that when Kobe’s teams finished with 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place records in the west…they didn’t get knocked out in the first round of the playoffs. If Tim is so good why didn’t his team win more championships when it’s been stacked damn near every single year.
DonFord says
GOAT: When we’re talking about the very highest tier, I always value two-way players (sorry Magic, Bird, Russell).
So at the very top go Wilt / KAJ / MJ / Kobe / LBJ in some order.
One-way superior players like Magic-Bird-Russell-BigO not far behind.
Tier 1A two-ways (Logo, Hakeem, Duncan, KMalone) right there, too.
Anonymous says
I’m not worried about Kobe’s current all time ranking. There is a lot of noise out there right now. To some degree Kobe is being held down because he followed so closely behind another elite SG, MJ. Plus, there is some push back because Kobe has been injured these past few years so he’s playing as a shell of his former self.
In time, clarity will come through, and he’ll move into the top 4-7 positions, which Is where belongs.
T. Rogers says
Kobe’s value will be better realized later on. In an era where the best players are becoming 3 point specialists Kobe’s triple threat skill set of his prime will be remembered well. No, he’s never been a great 3 point shooter. But when KB was on he was threat to kill you off the dribble, in the post, mid range, or from behind the arc. Plus, his first team all defense selections well earned during his prime years. He is the player the young guys cite when asked who have they learned from. Wiggins isn’t trying to shoot 30 footers like Curry. He’s trying to master the post game like Kobe.
Lastly, the analytics crazy guys at ESPN don’t like Kobe’s game. The over penalize him for his shot selection.
Tim says
Nice tribute to Kobe by the Spurs.
KO says
Do not fear tankeys. Look at schedule. Expect to lose next 8 games.
Guaranteed.
Baylor Fan says
Russell continues to be #1 simply because he delivered time and time again. He was a Swiss Army Knife at center directing the defense and anticipating where the ball was heading and being there to stop plays. In his later years, he was as much coach as player, redesigning the offense to fit the personnel of the Celtics. All this was accomplished at a time when black folks were poorly tolerated in white society. He endured slurs and hatred even in Boston. Kobe has done nothing that compares with Russell’s total portfolio. However, Kobe has shown great respect for Russell and has sought out his advice. As a student of the game, Kobe has few peers.
LKK says
I’m convinced Poppvich has an underground lab where he churns out Euro-bigs. JC with a great half, helping to keep it close.
LKK says
JR is becoming much more comfortable with looking for (and making) his mid range shots recently. Good to see.
LKK says
I’m going to miss Kobe Bryant!!! What a third quarter!! Pure offensive audacity!!
LKK says
Very entertaining game. Our guys are really battling!
Tim says
What a third quarter by Kobe as the Lakers lead and have a chance to steal a win, like the way the are competing tonight.
Fern says
Kobe’s last hurrah in SA!!! and all those analytics are not the total measure of a player. Those analytics dudes are nerds that had never hold a basketball in their hands, some of it is useful most of it is not. Kobe is a top 5 player of all time top 10 at the worst. His body of work his first 17 years prove it more than enough, and lately he is breaking new ground, finding ways to score and be effective, it’s all about having huge stones now insane longevity for a guard, and tonight he is bringin it. Up by two after 3 quarters, win or lose this is a hell of a performance.
LKK says
Julius is beasting on the boards! Rebound #16 was a man’s rebound!
Tim says
Please be ok Julius Randle
LKK says
Let’s hope Randle’s injury isn’t serious.
Fern says
Julius suck it up and stayed in the game, man, when he gets it all togheter look out, this is not against bottom feeder teams or garbage time this is against the Spurs and Lamarcus Aldridge he is legit..
KevTheBold says
Randle is ok, thank God !!
This was a good game, one we could have won.
Would like to see more of these.
KO says
He did not stay in game. But Bryon decided to put rim protecter Nicky Young in instead. Oh well great effort.
Mid-Wilshire says
This was a truly well-fought game by the (young) Lakers against a very difficult opponent on the 2nd of 4 road games. Despite Kobe going 9-28, the Lakers still fought San Antonio down to the last few seconds. Who stood out? The kids. It’s games like this that renew my confidence in this team’s future. Here are the stat lines for the 4 players who, I thought, played well tonight:
Jordan Clarkson — 21 pts. (9-14 shooting), 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 TO
Julius Randle — 15 pts. (5-12 shooting), 17 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 3 TOs
D’Angelo Russell — 12 pts. (3-7 shooting, 2-4 from 3), 2 rebs., 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 TO
Tarik Black — 4 pts. (2-4 shooting), 8 rebounds (in 17:01), zero TOs, 2 fouls
This is all very encouraging. If this continues (and the Lakers get some more talent here and there in the off season), they could actually have a future.
Chris J says
I really wanted the win tonight, but come May’s lottery I suspect I’ll be more pleased with the L since that should (hopefully) translate to a better draft pick. The kids fought hard and Kobe’s really turned back the clock the past week. All that aside, the less time Hibbert is on the floor, the better the Lakers look. Black’s earning his minutes, and Bass has been a solid pro all season. An enjoyable loss, such as there is such a thing…
LKK says
According to several sources, X-ray of JR’s ankle was negative.
harold says
I just don’t think the way they rank the players is very realistic. In my mind, the only way to rank them fairly is to go through this hypothetical scenario – if there were 30 teams making their picks today, knowing what we know today, where would players go?
In that scenario, I can see Kobe going in the top 10, simply because some historical players’ games will not translate well in the modern game. But otherwise, I think the list of KAJ/MJ/Wilt/Russell/Magic/Bird is virtually unassailable, with Shaq/TD/Hakeem/LBJ rounding the top 10…
Chearn says
Grayson Allen will definitely be a pro! Watched the kid rise to a level of prominence last year in the NCAA.
matt says
Randle and clarkson starting to play like real pros
Anonymous says
I like how the Spurs fans appreciated Kobe’s greatness even though he was a major rival. That’s good sportsmanship.
Fern says
Listening to a Kobe chant in SA was just surreal but it speaks volumes of the Spurs and their fans. Must had meant the world to Kobe…
Robert says
harold: Question: Why Russell and not Mikan? If anything – Mikan was more dominant in his decade. Or are you saying that players who played with peach baskets should not be on the list? In which case Russell should not be on there. Not picking on you, but it bugs me that Laker fans bow down to Russell and ignore Mikan when the two are basically the same. Also, since you have Hakeem in there – can you state where my comparison to Kobe is flawed? By the way – there really was this dude at Rucker Park – can’t remember his name – but he really should be on the list : )
Robert says
Harold: With regard to “drafting” as the ranking criteria. Kobe would go even higher. If you could draft a guy that would be in the top 5 for MVP 11 times, he would probably go second right behind the guy who did it 15 times (KAJ). Wow – I guess by your criteria – I have Kobe under-rated at 3rd : ) It is all good – no right answer here.
pat oslon says
Julius Randle was in beast mode: 15 pts. (5-12 shooting), 17 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 3 TOs
Craig W. says
While ‘rings’ cannot be discounted, this is still a team game and one person simply cannot win rings by themselves. It is also a game of eras and today’s fans of course consider the current era to be the most definitive. Us older fans may consider the era when we were young to be the best. There is no real way to measure any of this.
Boston had a team of all-stars in the 60s and Chicago had a clearly superior team in the 90s. In th 80s there were two pinnacle teams, and – from today’s viewpoint – the star players on those teams suffer in comparison with MJ. In the 60s both Wilt and Bill Russell changed the game of basketball, but Russell being surrounded by all-stars makes his impact seem greater and Wilt’s seem less. Then we all can so easily forget Oscar,Jerry and Elgin. Oh, and Mikan also changed the game of basketball, but he had several all-star players around him.
This comparison thing simply gets too complex for any of us to resolve – except for our own steadfast opinions.
LKK says
Robert….
Imagine Kobe w/ good health these past 3 years. He would be close to the all time points record and his all time totals would be even more amazing. ESPN feeds on lists and comparisons. All I know is that Kobe belongs in the GOAT conversation. That’s enough for me. And, as you said, it’s a very subjective argument.
Brandon B says
@KenOak As a Spurs fan, I can trestify that Duncan’s Spurs teams weren’t always stacked. They had years where they relied on 75 year-old Michael Finley, past his prime Brent Barry, the corpse of Antonio McDyess, and depressed Richard Jefferson. Keep in mind the Spurs were able to attract ZERO coveted free agents before Aldridge this year. When I think of a stacked team that should’ve won more championships, I think of OKC or the Lakers with Dwight Howard and Pau Gasol.
Hale says
Who’s greatness was greater? It’s even less interesting than watching otaku debate the power level difference of 1954 Godzilla and 1968 Gamera.
LKK says
Brandon B….
Tim has never had to carry a team by himself. Most #1 picks go to a very poor team. Due to injury to David Robinson, the Spurs lucked out and got Duncan. An anomaly for sure. So Tim came to a very good team from the start. I would also argue that any team that has Ginobli, Parker and Duncan is pretty “stacked” regardless of the complementary players. Tim has been part of a big three for most of his career. I think Tim is a great player, no doubt. I don’t think he is the greatest power forward of all time, though, because he’s spent most of his career splitting time between forward and center. Again, one’s fandom affects this most subjective of arguments.
rr says
Duncan: Duncan’s most impressive run carrying a Finals team was in 2003 before Parker and Ginobili fully came into their own. The 1999 Spurs team had him and Robinson; Robinson was old then, but still very good. But all the Spurs teams since 2005 have had Ginobili and Parker, who have had great careers and are still both pretty good even now, and more recently, Leonard. Parker and Leonard both won Finals MVPs on teams that Duncan was on. As to OKC, their FO traded Harden and they have not had Durant and Westbrook both fully healthy in post-season since then. The Lakers only had Howard for one year and he has not been the same since back trouble, although he is still good. As Pelton sometimes says, teams win titles, not players. Duncan is of course without question one of the greatest players ever.
GOAT: GOAT, like GLOAT, is not entirely just my opinion vs. yours. Some opinions are far better supported than others. That said, a lot depends on what criteria you choose and how you deal with the timeline. Robert’s Kobe arguments have always revolved around cumulative career achievements, and if you go by that, Kobe is way up the list. If you go more by the contemporary metrics, he drops considerably.
Russell and Chamberlain were before my time, and so was most of Kareem’s prime. There is no doubt in my mind that they were such awesome talents that they could play at a high level today, but given how the game is played now, they would have to play differently. One thing about timelining: If Chamberlain or Russell were both 25 years old right now, we should remember that they would have access to modern training, nutrition, equipment, etc.
Robert says
LKK: Agreed – but had he retired 3 years ago it still would have been a phenomenal 17 year career. This is why I give him the nod over Magic who had a MUCH shorter career (My ATF prior to KB). Comparisons to Bird are comical.
Craig W: There was only one pinnacle team of the 80’s. We have the 50’s, the 80’s, and the 2000’s. I will give the Celtics the 60’s when they still had jump balls after each basket. I do like the Mikan mentions though. I still do not get it with Laker fans. Laker fans discount Mikan and Baylor and West and bow down to Oscar and Russell. Go figure. Where is the homerism when we need it : )
Brandon B: Take this as a compliment. I hate the Spurs.
Robert says
Hale: Well let’s see. Godzilla played in the 50’s so I guess that is Mikan. And Gamera in the 60’s so I guess that is Russell. Now I would not compare either of them to more modern monsters, but I guess if I were a typical Laker fan succumbing to the media/Celtic hype, then I would not even mention Godzilla and would give the nod to Gamera. Fortunately I am not this way and I would say that both of these monsters played with the equivalent of peach baskets.
Fern says
Russell and Mikan were in another era when your avg fwd and center was like 6’4, the NBA was a league of midgets back then, the were monsters and dominated because they were bigger than everybody else. Built a time machine and send Roy Hibbert to the 50s and 60s and he would had insane numbers and rings. They dont count on the all time lists in my opinion…
Fern says
I respect them as pioneers but in GOATS conversations? Not a chance..
Hale says
Robert: That’s quite possibly the greatest response that I’ve ever seen regarding basketball and kaiju.
Mid-Wilshire says
Elgin Baylor makes my list of the top 10…maybe even top 5. Check out the following clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E
Fern says
@ Robert that cracked me up lol good one, on the subject you put Shaq in the same time machine and he would avg like 100ppg 50rpg and 20 blocks, eaaasyyy
LKK says
Fern, Robert….
I think you guys go a little too far with discrediting the players of previous generations. I think the best players of those eras would find success today as well. What Draymond Green is doing now, Bill Russell was doing 50 years ago. Bill was also the original rim protector and fully capable of defending his own man. In addition to spearheading Boston’s vaunted fast break, Mr. Russell also was instrumental in the acceptance and eventual celebration of African-Americans in the NBA. That’s something that’s easy to forget when one looks at the makeup of the league today. I can’t stand the Celtics, but I admire and respect MR. Russell.
Elgin Baylor led to Dr. J to Michael to Kobe to Lebron. Jerry West could shoot, defend, assist and compete in any era. I once saw Bob Pettit play games with a broken arm, cast and all. Played well, too! Do you think any of today’s multi-millionaires would do that? 6’5″ forwards and centers? Green may be 6’6″”, but I don’t see many 7 footers dominating him. Barkeley was only 6’4″, but he held his own. I’m sure there were tough, savvy guys like Dave DeBusschere and Cliff Hagan that would be considered undersized at their positions today, who held their own back then against bigger opponents as well.
I get it that you guys feel that today’s game is far superior. I’m not so sure. It’s certainly different with the emphasis on 3 point shooting and the legality of zone defenses. Today’s players are bigger, stronger and richer, but not as fundamentally sound. We have more athletes and fewer basketball players, IMO.
These are fun arguments for which there are few real answers, but certainly plenty of opinions.
rr says
Fern,
Walt Bellamy, Zelmo Beaty, Willis Reed, and Nate Thurmond, among others, might disagree with you. Mikan was bigger than a lot of guys in the 50s, but Russell was not exceptionally tall for a C in the time he played in. He was just an awesome athlete with long arms, big hands, and great instincts.
Fern says
In the 60′ 6’9 was still taller than almost everybody else, he did have abilities betond his height in that era…
bleedpurplegold says
@fern: agree with everything but your hibbert take :(:( he is a scrub, no matter the era….sad to say, even kwame looked better than what he shows us thus far
Off topic:
Great Super bowl, broncos D toughest i have seen in years…even seattle cant come close to this kind of pass rush…olsen not to be seen the entire game….manning deserves to go out this way, classy, hard working guy….much like kobe would have deserved to go out…..
david h says
Can’t believe Carolina get pants by Broncos at Levi’s stadium.
Go lakers
pat oslon says
Robert Upshaw highlights/stats Saturday night: 16 points
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouGobnQkwMU&ebc=ANyPxKqXgNW2FVyPU-2CRxOwPi4Jy21fTDRuFR8nvAy8yjJ3sTJG0IUXlQrLrVr0ZKJcUxyNE22COANMyugRPr08kt2sAs1eag&app=desktop
Baylor Fan says
LKK – thank you for keeping it real. I do not think Chamberlain would have been too happy about the midgets comments.
DonFord says
Pat Oslon: Appreciate the Upshaw link!!
He can shoot, even the 3 !
That left hook was nice too.
I have no idea of how the pacing of the D league compares to the pros, beyond the obvious substantial leap…
Robert says
LKK: Not discrediting anyone in my case. I just want consistency. It is clear that the game was totally different back then. When games are played in Cleveland in the NFL, nobody talks about all their 60’s titles. Nobody talks about Yale and Harvard’s NCAA football titles. Why do the Celtics get so much credit for titles that were a half a century ago? And the consistency – again your post did not mention Mikan. Why? There is no correct answer, but having Russell in the top 5 and Mikan out of the top 10 is just an inconsistent thing. They should either be both in or both out. This is a Lakers board, and we are favoring Bird and Russell. Mikan dominated way more than Bird. What is up with that? Oh yea – peach baskets – which leads me back to leaving all the guys where there is no video of them playing out – of the convo ; ) But if you want them in, then do not discriminate against one of the greatest Lakers – George Mikan.
Fern says
Well i neglected to mention the great Wilt Chamberlain but one of the reasons he dominated was because he was 7’1 obviously not a midget, but 7 footers were not the norm back then now they are a dime a dozen, he would not had put those video game cheat code numbers in later decades. But he would have been pretty good.
mud says
Fern, by the mid 60s, there were a number of 7 footers in the NBA. most Centers from about 1960 on were at least 6′ 10″, almost never less than 6′ 9″. in 1960 there were at least three 7 footers in the league including 7′ 3″ Swede Holbrook, which is probably pretty similar to the number of 7 footers playing center in today’s game, proportionally(there were a lot fewer teams in 1960). the Lakers had two 7 foot centers and one who was 6′ 10″ in 1966. the NBA West Champion Lakers of 1962 were about the same size as the current Lakers squad, minus Big Roy. they had two 6′ 10″ centers
go to Basketball reference and look at all of the lineups. there are definitely more big teams, but basketball is still basketball. it’s always been a tall man’s game.
there were plenty of tall people in the world in the 50s and 60s. any family that can afford good food has tall kids. the USA was quite prosperous in the 1950s. not so many of the tall people became professional athletes back then, it didn’t pay as well as(some) other work. the NBA wasn’t full of midgets, though. Wilt didn’t dominate just because he was bigger and stronger. if that’s all it took then Swen Nater, Darrell Imhoff, Mel Counts, and Hank Finkel should have all been all-time greats.
LKK says
Baylor Fan….
Elgin was my all time favorite Laker until Kobe came along. Being an old timer gives me a different perspective than some commenters here. Today’s players didn’t invent the game. It was handed down to them from strong, skilled hands.
harold says
Robert: I think for me the draft scenario is based on how their abilities would translate to the current game. My reasoning is, Wilt was countered by Russel, and since Wilt is somebody who could play today, Russel could play today, although probably not as center. Mikan, on the other hand, I doubt his game would translate well today, if only because I see pictures of him with glasses… a game that was playable with regular glasses probably was a very different game from the game that is played today.
As for Kobe, maybe with the current de-emphasis on the center position, maybe he’ll go higher, especially knowing that he could thrive on a GS type offensive system where he could showcase his entire arsenal; but i still think dominant two-way centers could wreak havoc to the GS system, so centers still would have value in today’s game.
don ford says
Fisher fired by Knicks. (Gotta wonder what the Jackson/Fisher dynamics are of that.)
Some interesting quotes (from ESPN article) that could affect our own head coaching search, particularly as to Luke Walton’s purported thought process:
“Two other former Jackson players, Brian Shaw and Luke Walton, are candidates to the full-time job, sources told ESPN. Shaw coached parts of two seasons in Denver, while Walton led the defending champion Golden State Warriors to a record start this season, filling in for injured coach Steve Kerr. Sources tell Shelburne, though, that Walton is determined to take his time before accepting a head coaching position. Much like Kerr two summers ago, Walton wants to make sure he’s setting himself up for success.”
stats says
Call me crazy, superstitious, whatever, but I’d like to see Fish back in the Lakers organization. Feels like karma. The question would be his role. [btw This is why I don’t run the FO, that and the fact that my daddy didn’t own a team.]
Vasheed says
I would expect Shaw to take over the Knicks. Shaw I felt was the guy the Lakers should have gone with after Phil if they wanted to continue the Triangle and continue with their roster. Not to rehash the Lakers decision to go away from that but, Phil has been fairly adamant about sticking with the Triangle. I could think of no one more suitable than Shaw to do that. Not to mention Phil’s habit to prefer guys he knows. Walton is a Phil guy too but, I would suspect Shaw would be more faithful to instituting the Triangle.
Fern says
The Lakers need to bring Luke back home no matter what it takes. I don’t care about the triangle, Tex Winters and Phil are the only ones that really have sucess with it, and it took several transendent talents to make it work, we dont have any of that…
Anonymous says
I think Derek is dealing with some personal issues. He’s recently divorced and was in that scrum with Matt Barnes over dating his ex-wife. I’d want to make sure that he’s on level ground before bringing him back into the Lakers family. We’ve got enough sideshows going on as it is.
I mean he only lasted a year and a half under his mentor PJ – who hand picked him for the job. The Knicks were awful prior to PJ and Fisher getting there so I would think there was definitely more time left on the honeymoon before the coaching seat got this hot.
Case in point: look at the Lakers and Byron – he’s still here and his W/L records have been worse. I just think there is more going on with Derek than meets the eye.
matt says
Interesting arguments for kobe’s GOAT rankings, heres my take, kobe did not get MVP, in the years ending, 2005, 06, 07… in those years his stats were incredible
2005, 35.4 pts, 4.5 ast, 5.9 reb, 48%fg
2006, 31.6 pts, 5.4 ast, 5.3 reb, 49%fg
2007, 28.3 pts, 5.4 ast, 5.7 reb, 49%fg
05, 06 mvp steve nash, 07 dirk
Not to discredit them but, the argument for kobe in those 3 years is valid.
Kobe has only won MVP once
bluehill says
Not a knock on Luke, but what’s the difference between Fish and Luke? Both were Lakers under Phil and presumably Phil respected both of them. If Fish were on the Warriors staff and Luke on the Knicks would the interest in Luke be as great. Luke would need to develop players and implement a system if he went to Lakers or the Knicks. Hard to evaluate his ability to do that from his Warrior stint.
T. Rogers says
Perception is everything. Phil cutting Fish so soon say a whole lot. It says his expectations for the Knicks are high. It also says that his personal relationship with Fisher won’t get in the way of trying to win. I still think Walton hangs on with Dubs and ends up as the main guy at some point in the near future.
KevTheBold says
The firing of fish is definitely interesting.
If having Laker history has anything to do with the front office’s inclinations to hire a new coach, then Fish, Shaw, and Walton are on the radar.
Out of those three, the one with the most determined mindset as a player to win, imo, is Fish.
Maybe he simply didn’t gel with Jackson in NY.
I would certainly consider him.
Fern says
Sorry but word from the NYpress is that Fish had wonky rotations and his decision making or lack thereoff, sounds familiar??
KevTheBold says
Could be, yet team composition is always a factor in that.
Chris J says
Wish I could have put some money down on this one a year and a half ago, but the Fisher news from New York was no surprise here (see below post)… If anything, given the unexpected success they’ve had this season (and by success I mean marked improvement), I’d have figured Derek would have been given a bit more time, maybe to finish out this season. Good luck to whomever replaces him. That’s the worst job in the NBA.
Chris J June 10, 2014 at 1:16 pm
Just my opinion here…
I wish Fisher nothing but the best, but I would be extremely surprised if he is the Knicks coach for the length of that contract, or even three years from now. New York has a way of chewing up people with high expectations and demand for immediate results. I would guess not even Phil will be immune.
Don Nelson received a 3-year deal and didn’t make it through a full season. D’Antoni had a 4-year deal and didn’t make it through the end of his third season. Mike Woodson received a 3-year extension in March 2012 and was ousted just 25 months later. Those guys all had lengthy NBA careers on the sidelines, with varying degrees of success, but in some cases quite a bit of success. And all were run off sooner than planned. Dolan has a way about him, and he passes out contract years and cash like a Pez dispenser shoots out candy. Neither is particularly filling, however.
Jeff Van Gundy is the one recent exception Fisher should hope to emulate, but in his case, he’d been a longtime assistant and took over a veteran team with many talented players; the transition back to Riley-ball (after the brief Nelson tenure, which was doomed from the jump) was welcomed by the longtime Knicks players and fans, which put Van Gundy in a great position to succeed.
Fisher will enjoy a honeymoon period, but it won’t last long.
Anonymous says
KevTheBold – Its not that the NY FO did not gel with Fish, it’s that Fish is not a good coach.
KevTheBold says
Possibly, yet the learning curve has maybe not been met.
rr says
Kerr was Phil’s first choice for the NY gig.
anon says
Fisher wasn’t ready, plain and simple. He needed to be an assistant coach for a few years at least. His personal life problems didn’t help his cause. Perception is reality, and his involvement with an ex-teammates estranged wife showed poor judgement at best. (Not to mention a serious breach of the bro code.) He’s got plenty of money still coming in from his coaching contract–not going to feel too bad for him.
matt says
I will never forget the way jeff van gundy looked when he coached the knicks, stressed beyond belief, looked like a balding zombie, d’antoni looked stressed too l, the lakers job was like vacation to him, that is a very high expectation job, maybe its the city, because even the jets got high expectations.
KevTheBold says
Word is Jackson is high on Rambis, and it was he who helped push Fish to the door.
LKK says
Robert….
I never saw Mikan play! I’m not that old. 🙂 He was however, voted on the original 50 greatest players’ list. Oh, and if we are not giving credit to the 11 titles the Celtics won back in the day, do Mikan’s 5 in Minny disappear as well?? Consistency.
Craig W. says
Reading the comments here, I wonder how many bloggers think the Laker coaching job is much better? Certainly the fanbase is no less vocal.
Anonymous says
Serious question: What makes one think that Walton or Madsen would not fare the same fate as Fisher? I know that Fisher was well respected for his “leadership” abilities – and while that certainly is a key ingredient to coaching, it is but one of many attributes (including motivation and coaching skill) to being a good coach.
With Walton and Madsen, I have never heard anyone refer to them as “leaders”….. so that begs the question: whey do some here think they would be a good coaching choice?
matt says
For espn to rate lebron higher than kobe and curry in the top 30 is completely biased and reflects a interest in ratings, they want fans to think lebron is greater so they tune in, because they don’t wana miss “one of the greatest players ever”.overrated.
So here’s my biased opinion as a lakers fan, lebron is nowhere near kobe, kobe is the most exciting player to come along in a long time, lebron is great but he’s boring, to put him on a list ahead of kobe is insulting, lebron should come play in the west and watch his numbers fall. Lebron will only be remembered for “the decision”,, oh yeah and “not one, not two, not three, but six”, gimme a break, kobe’s post game as a guard reflects, Jordan. His acrobatic shots are marvelous. Even now in his retirement year he’s more exciting to watch than lebron…..but hey it’s my opinion, ask the players.
Anonymous says
matt– some of that is projection of what LBJ and Curry have left in the tank. Having said that, I totally agree with you: need to judge based on what has been seen so far in comparison to the greats. Curry should get an Incomplete at this stage – and that’s ok. As far as Lebron, the same can be said to a lesser extent. If he wins 0 championships in the next 15 years and 0 MVPs, he will be looked at as a failure and not worthy of the top 50 tag. At this stage, he probably is top 50, but not top 10 or 15 of all time – again, based on where he is as of today and given that his career may last an unkown timespan.
Robert says
LKK: That is my point. Having Mikan at 15 and Russell 5 makes no sense. I would put them both at about 15. But if you must – put them both at 5-6
Mid-Wilshire says
In a post about 2 months ago, I suggested that the Lakers try to find the next Brad Stevens not among the ranks of past NBA coaches (too many of them are damaged goods) or current NBA assistant coaches (no real experience as leaders) but among the college ranks. After all, it seems to be paying off for Boston (although it’s failed for others).
My suggestion was Sean Miller of the University of Arizona. Other than having a superb won/loss record in college (both with Xavier and the U of A), he seems to be an excellent mentor to young players. (Miller is a still youngish 45.)
Think of some of the players he’s recently sent to the pros: Aaron Gordon, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Stanley Johnson, T.J. McConnell. Although they vary widely in their various skills, they all have certain interesting traits in common.
(1) They’re all intense on-ball defenders. Obviously, they’ve been taught to play defense and it shows. (2) They share the basketball willingly and have an excellent sense of team ball. (3) They’re all tough, physically and mentally…totally fearless. Not one of them backs down from anyone. (4) They’re all used to winning. Anything else is unacceptable.
Perhaps someone like Sean Miller could be the answer to the Lakers’ coaching woes. It’s worth a shot. Almost certainly, he’ll be better at relating to young players than Fisher, Shaw, or (God knows) Byron Scott.
When it comes to finding their next head coach (which hopefully will come soon), perhaps the Lakers should think outside the box for a change.