It is not new news that Jim Buss (and, by association, maybe Mitch Kupchak) has a self imposed deadline for returning the Lakers back into contention. That word — contention — has been defined as competing for a conference championship and/or an NBA championship, so one would assume a push into the 2nd round with either a win or a very competitive loss would be needed to qualify.
The actual timeline has been somewhat debated, but Jeanie Buss has gone on the record, again, to explain that the timeline is by the end of next season. She reiterated this just a few days ago and USA Today’s Sam Amick has the details:
There is no change to the timeline that Jim first shared in April of 2014, when he indicated that he would resign if the team wasn’t contending for a title by next season. Since then, it has become clear that Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak would likely be part of this equation as well.
“I think that (Jim Buss) was very sure of himself when he promised that timeline, and I think that he has everything he needs to fulfill that promise of getting the team back competitive,” Jeanie Buss said. “And when I say competitive, it’s competing for the Western Conference Finals, which would mean at least second round (of the playoffs) – if not more … They have earned the right to take the time that they’ve needed to put together what they want to have out on the court, and if they can’t do that then we have to reexamine how things are going.”
So, there you have it. Again.
I would prefer that Jeanie, every time she goes on the record, wouldn’t feel the need to discuss this timeline. I think it adds needless pressure to an already pressure packed working environment and can be read into as feeding into the perception of discord at the top of the Lakers’ organization. We all know the timeline exists and we all know getting there is more complicated than “having everything (they) need to fulfill that promise.”
There is a massive amount of good fortune that goes into building a true contender and, as history has shown, often doesn’t deal with any sort of timeline. Players grow at their own pace, sometimes a big deal comes out of nowhere. There is also the point that the team can be clearly on the right path of development, but not quite ready to get to where the stated goal is within the stated timeline. But I digress.
When looking at Jeanie’s comment’s, however, it does not seem like any of that type of wiggle room for interpretation exists. Either the Lakers make a huge leap in the upcoming year or top executives are at risk of losing their jobs. Over at Silver Screen & Roll, Harrison Faigen wonders how this might impact decision making this summer:
The worry with such public declarations and a clear deadline is whether or not that threat of accountability will lead to Jim mortgaging the Lakers’ future in an attempt to save his job.
The Lakers’ young core looks promising, but barring a miracle won’t be ready to get to the Western Conference Finals next season. So will Jim look to trade some of those players for more established veterans in an attempt to win now? Could he additionally overpay free agents this summer with contracts the Lakers will regret on the back end for short term gain?
Any of these moves would obviously be a positive if they led the Lakers to contention, but the likelihood of them doing so is small. What is far more likely is that such desperate gambits would lead to a small gain in the near term while ending up prolonging the amount of time before the Lakers are true contenders again.
As Faigen notes, positives could come from reshaping the roster in drastic ways — even if it meant dealing away some young players to get there. As the Lakers learned at the trade deadline, most of the inquiries from other teams centered around their young talent. If those are the pieces teams want and the best way to get better players is to work deals involving the young guys, those are conversations the team should have. Every rational acting team would play out those discussions internally.
Having those talks within the brain-trust isn’t the same as pulling the trigger, however. Any decision the organization makes should be gauging both short and long term implications and looking for options which optimize both. It’s one thing to trade away draft picks or young players when you have a near the end of his prime Kobe + Pau and are trying to extend a championship window. It’s another thing to do so when you’re coming off three of the worst seasons in franchise history in the hopes of meeting a self imposed deadline for building a winner.
This is why Jim Buss needs to wear two hats this summer. As the Lakers’ top basketball decision maker, he should definitely be looking at the best ways to improve the team and get them back to winning at a high level as soon as possible. Executives, like coaches, are hired to be fired eventually. So, finding a way to stay “employed” by building a winner should be a priority.
But Jim isn’t just an executive. He’s a part owner of the team. Even if he steps down from making basketball decisions in a year, his ownership stake in the team will go on indefinitely (there are no indications the Lakers will ever be for sale). Thus, he has a greater responsibility and needs to not only think about the short term, but how today’s moves make sense for 5, 10, 20 years down the line. Grasping for immediate returns in a way which compromises the long term health of the roster is a bad move for any owner.
No one wants to see the Lakers go all-in on a playoff berth next year only to plunge back to the depths of the lottery in another three years. That would be catastrophic to the Lakers’ brand. As President of Basketball Operations and a part owner, Jim Buss needs to understand this better than anyone this summer.
R G says
Love that she puts the pressure on Jim and Mitch need to feel the most pressure ever felt leading up to this summer. Demand excellence Jeanie this is the Lakers I love it.
Anonymous says
Screw the timeline. Assuming we get to keep our pick, Jim needs to look out for the team in the long term and keep those pieces that will give us a young core to become a contender for years to come. That is more important than any timeline Jim has given the public or Jeannie. Assuming we draft well this next year, then Jeannie will have a very, very hard time making a decision on what is best for the team. And that is OK. Frustration over the last few years aside, we may end up with a solid core and plenty of cap space. Sure, not on track to win it all next year, but in the right direction.
I for one, think Jim will end up stepping down after this year. However, I am a strong believer the right man to take his place is Mitch. There really is no better guy for the job anywhere in the world. Please, please, please do not bring Phil in here. Its a recipe for disaster given the huge conflict of interest with Jeannie.
teamn says
Great post. As a fan, I don’t like it when an owner wears two hats like this (or a coach that is also the GM). The competing agendas are often too great, creating a dichotomy too difficult to balance.
I thought Jim made a mistake by taking on this active a role. Hopefully he can learn from it. I would actually like to see him accept that his attempts have failed (for many reasons not just because of him), step back to ownership and let basketball people run the operation. I think that may be the only way the franchise ultimately finds its footing again.
Andres Garcia says
Kurt Helin and Bill Oram discussed on the PBT podcast how the timeline could affect any potential coaching change. Basically, is a new coach going to want to step in only to risk working with a new basketball ops team in one year that didn’t hire him/her? great point and might lead to standing pat with BScott regardless of whether or not they really want to.
Robert says
I do not see this as Jeanie reiterating, rather she is wavering a bit. In January, this deadline was defined as the WCF. Now we are hedging to the second round. Nobody in media seems to calling attention to this, rather many are sympathizing that there should be no deadline.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-lakers-jeanie-buss-hold-jim-buss-timeline-20150106-story.html
If the deadline is real and will be maintained – there is no point waiting a year. Make the change in 16. Why let Jim bring in a new coach, only to have himself resign a year later?
By the way Darius – very clever how you spoke about Jim disregarding his ownership “HAT”. Nice one !
Todd says
Speak of the devil. CBS Sports Online article about our team. Saw the new thread and deleted this one from the old and posted here since it fits in this discussion.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25491679/jeanie-buss-wants-lakers-competing-for-west-title-next-season
___
Jeanie Buss wants Lakers competing for West title next season
By Ananth Pandian | NBA writer
February 22, 2016
For the third straight season, the Los Angeles Lakers won’t make the playoffs. And for the third straight season, the Lakers are one of the worst teams in the league. One of the winningest franchises in the history of the NBA, the Lakers are stuck in rut and although there is some hope for the future, it looks like they won’t be an elite team for quite some time.
But team president and part owner Jeanie Buss doesn’t appear to be too worried because she thinks by next season, the Lakers will be competing for the Western Conference Finals.
From USA Today’s Sam Amick:
There is no change to the timeline that Jim first shared in April of 2014, when he indicated that he would resign if the team wasn’t contending for a title by next season. Since then, it has become clear that Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak would likely be part of this equation as well.
“I think that (Jim Buss) was very sure of himself when he promised that timeline, and I think that he has everything he needs to fulfill that promise of getting the team back competitive,” Jeanie Buss said. “And when I say competitive, it’s competing for the Western Conference Finals, which would mean at least second round (of the playoffs) – if not more … They have earned the right to take the time that they’ve needed to put together what they want to have out on the court, and if they can’t do that then we have to re-examine how things are going.”
And while next season seems unrealistic for the Lakers to make such a drastic turnaround and compete in the Western Conference Finals, they will have plenty of cap space next summer so they could potentially sign a marquee free agent. Coupled with the fact that Kobe Bryant is retiring, a free agent that wants to play in a bigger market and have a large role while playing alongside the Lakers’ promising core of Jordan Clarkson, Julius Randle and D’Angelo Russell could choose to come to Los Angeles. Buss is optimistic that this will happen:
“I think that what we offered (the many free agents who passed on the Lakers in recent years) didn’t match where they were in their careers or what they were looking for,” Jeanie said. “Hopefully now, our story and what we have to present will be enticing to whoever they have targeted in terms of free agency to bring here. But again, I don’t make the decisions about the vision of basketball.”
A whole lot of factors — and quite frankly luck — need to work in the Lakers’ favor if they want to be one of the top two teams in the West next season. As of right now, it seems extremely unlikely that this will happen. But you never know, anything is possible and the Lakers very well could be in the playoffs again next season.
However if that doesn’t happen, it sounds like Buss will hold her brother and the team’s vice president of basketball operations Jim Buss and general manager Mitch Kupchak accountable.
rr says
Jim was foolish to set the timeline in the first place, and it is one of several things that he has said or done that show questionable leadership instincts. He gets a free ride on that error in judgment (and everything else) at SSR and from some people here, but Jeanie, who is the only person whose opinion on the issue really matters, has hung it around Jim’s neck.
So Jeanie needs to take some responsibility at this point now as well. The timeline isn’t good for the org. and while Jim can resign whenever he feels like it, if Jeanie is actually in charge, then Jim should be on her timeline, not his own. So, like I said a month or so ago, I think she should either clean house at the end of the year, including moving Mitch to a consultant role, or announce that the FO has two more years for sure and the issue will be revisited then.
david h says
“As President of Basketball Operations and a part owner, Jim Buss needs to understand this better than anyone this summer.”
Darius: I don’t think that Jim Buss understands to understand. The fact that you have to state it means he has no idea. Only luck will save him now and we all know how that works for him.
Go lakers
R says
From the last thread, maybe its more relevant here:
The Lakers are the 2nd most valuable team in the league, according to Forbes magazine. I often wonder if they are using (some of) those financial resources to be the best in the league at aspects of winning that aren’t restricted by the salary cap, such as training, analytics, scouting, coaching, management for that matter? Well I guess we know the answer regarding coaching, unless we think Byron is the best coach money can buy! OK, then, how about assistant coaches?
My point is, it would be helpful if the Lakers organization focused on putting themselves in a position to succeed (maybe they are for all I know) rather than this waffling silliness of amorphous results promised by an amorphous deadline. It doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence does it? it honestly makes me wonder if they learned anything at all from the old man.
Kbj says
If the goal is to make the second round of the Western conference playoffs next season, Jeanie Buss may as well fire Jim and Mitch after this season is over. I fail to see how the Lakers can go from a lottery team to the second round of the playoffs. I agree with rr. This timeline makes no sense.
lil pau says
It’s the pursuit of deadlines like this one that have led the Lakers to chase players like Carmelo, which would have insured that we’d be stuck in mediocrity or worse for another 6-7 years. Rebuilding through the draft is hard medicine to swallow, but the worst is behind us and the goal now should be to stay the course rather than mortgaging our future on some B+ player.
Unless we can get a legitimate superstar – which seems unlikely – we should continue to draft well while rounding out the roster so as to be able to land a superstar in the future. The model to avoid: the Atlanta Hawks – always good enough to make the playoffs, never good enough to win
My respect for Jeanie on this issue is less than (even) my respect for Jim– either she knows that it would be foolish to try to compete next year and is cynically hanging Jim out to dry, or she sincerely thinks that’s a realistic goal (and not a future-killing one) in which case she understands less than anyone on this blog which makes her, well, kind of pitiful.
matt says
If jim and jeanie don’t get along why are they the 2 top ones in charge
matt says
I agree with post above, it’s gonna take time for youngsters to be contenders, but with the pressure of win now, they might get buried on the bench, behind free agents signed in desperatation, hopefully these rich kids (sorry they both old now) care more about the team then their management position.
matt says
Am i right in saying that they (jim and jeanie) don’t get along, there was alot of talk when, phil jackson didn’t get hired by jim buss, about a sibling rivalry, jeanie’s talk kinda shows mockery toward jim, i mean who says that, “he said he would get us back into contention, or he’s outta here”, like said above he should just step down cuz it ain’t happening, unless we sign 3 top free agents this summer, a grand slam free agency is highly unlikely, and with a new coach it will take time for chemistry, even lebron, wade, and bosh took time.
Anonymous says
I think the Jim/Mitch FO is dead man walking. However, my fear is that if there are no checks and balances in Lakers management. What’s to stop Jim from going rogue and trading the kids for vets in an effort to make the playoffs and keep his job?
Even adding a top pick to our core won’t be enough to make the playoffs. So absent rash moves the Lakers will simply make organic progress. So what’s the point of keeping Jim if the road back to being a championship contender is building through the draft and adding an elite or two at some future point?
Jim’s deadline means he’s not part of the Lakers future. So in my mind its best to just clean house this summer and put an FO in place that can actually help craft that future by bringing on a long term coach, bringing the organization’s capabilities up to par (analytics, training, scouting etc).
I think its long overdue to open the doors and windows and let new ideas come into the organization. The key in my mind is a young energetic GM who has a vision and can clearly communicate that vision to his coach and prospective free agents. I’d open the money bags for Sam Presti. He’s smart enough to realize that the Lakers are the preeminent NBA franchise and young enough to seize the opportunity to re-establish their greatness. This is would be a rare and career crowning achievement.
The nice thing about being the Lakers is that they have the financial resources to hire the best talent. There is no cap on GM or coaching salaries — there is no cap on the amount and organization can spend on analytics, training and scouting.
The time is now to move forward.
Anonymous says
Am i right in saying that they (jim and jeanie) don’t get along
—
matt – where have you been?
matt says
I’m here,,,, inform me of it. They are never together in public.
matt says
I know the rest of the owners respected and almost feared jerry buss
LT Mitchell says
Jerry Buss made it clear that he wanted Jimbo to be in charge of basketball operations. How can anyone fault Jeannie for following her father’s dying wish? If it were up to her, she would have hired a qualified president of basketball ops years ago, which may have prevented the worst years in Laker history.
As far as her continued public reminders of Jimbo’s timeline, I think it is very important. When Jimbo first announced his timeline in years, it was unclear if the timeline started from the date of the announcement or from the day Jim became president of basketball ops. It was also unclear exactly what contending meant. She has since cleared that up. Jimbo has also tried to add another year to his timeline, so again, I think it was wise of Jeannie to announce that the deadline remains unchanged.
While I agree that this deadline can have a negative impact on signing free agents (particularly elite free agents) and coaching hires……. it is much more important for the Lakers future to get rid of Jimbo and hire someone qualified. Jeannie may not know basketball, but at least she has a firm grasp on what is the root cause of the Lakers struggles.
Clay Bertrand says
I don’t know why we all WORSHIP the management savvy of Dr. Buss. He is the guy who NEVER had his kids work in the the Lakers organization save for a handful of years just before he died. Then he somehow INSISTED that every living BUSS family member become hired as an actual WORKING EMPLOYEE of the Lakers Front Office!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!???????
How many Phillip Anschutz relatives are working in the Scouting Dept.?? Jesse Buss is the Director of Scouting. How may Dr. Phillip Soon Shiong relatives are picking players and coaches and making timelines???
Majority ownership entitles this family to INJECT themselves into the ACTUAL DAY TO DAY RUNNINGS OF A PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAM!!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Its utterly ridiculous that ANY Buss kid is ANYTHING other than “part of ownership”. You don’t see this type of arrangement on this type of scale in ANY professional sports franchise IN ANY SPORT!!!!!!!
ALL of the Busses are incompetent to OPERATE an NBA franchise. They are all qualified to be owners. They should just accept their role as THE OWNERS OF THE LAKERS and stop trying to be professional basketball and business people. Even Jeanie is pathetic.
AND PLEASE STOP GIVING FRIGGING INTERVIEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
R says
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14750602/how-golden-state-warriors-stephen-curry-got-best-worst-ankles-sports
The above is an example of how the Warriors go about things. Can the Lakers match this level of excellence? They can certainly afford to do so, it would seem.
Anonymous says
The cleanest and best solution for the organization is for Jim to step aside and simply wear his owner hat.
The Lakers need a new coach next year and as previously mentioned, what coach of any merit would take a job knowing that the guy that hired him will likely be replaced the following year. It’s just not a good scenario unless you hire someone like Rambis who would instantly become a lame duck coach.
But in reality the Lakers not only need a new coach — they need a great coach. And a great coach would only come into a stable environment: 1) is my boss’ job stable 2) does my vision and my boss’ vision match 3) does my boss have a plan to get talent and can he execute on that plan.
From an FO perspective the Lakers situation has progressively gotten worse and as we’ve seen in the press the stakes are high. No good coach would want to insert themselves into this mess.
Jim has to resign for the benefit of the organization.
KevTheBold says
I highly doubt any free agent of franchise impact, will consider the Lakers this summer regardless
of our front office status.
Trying in vain, will only further damage our reputation in rejections and snubs.
We just are not ready yet, so let our past rejections be forgotten, not reinforced.
The good news is that we will finally be able to develop our core next season, and hopefully add to that core from our rookies, and D league prospects.
With a solid new generation coach, and a full season of progress, the 2017 off season would hopefully be our time to strike for a free agent worthy of the Lakers and vice versa.
rr says
BK on Facebook:
But whether you’re talking about coaches, general managers, or both, generally speaking once people start questioning — not in a shallow, hot-talk way but genuinely, deeply questioning — it’s almost always too late. The Lakers have to figure out how to get both sides of their organization working in true concert, and if that means Jim Buss and Kupchak are sacrificed in the process, then that’s what has to happen. If everyone knows what’s coming, waiting another 12 months is pointless.
The easiest thing Jeanie can do is wait and when the time comes reluctantly say that she has to act. Jim, after all, put her in this position. And like I said, if she’s lucky he’ll do it for her, and all Jeanie will need to do it make a call on Mitch.
But unless she’s willing to publicly declare Jim’s timeline moot, that she plans to evaluate things based on more attainable forms of progress — a totally defensible idea, it should be noted — the smarter thing is to step up and make changes this summer.
lil pau says
I find this ‘promise’ discussion borderline infuriating. let’s say, for the sake of argument, that Westbrook’s agent has whispered in the Lakers ear that he’s coming in 2017. Obviously, that would affect everything from 2016 acquisitions, to a coaching hire, etc. But, according to this idiotic timeline, the Lakers should make moves that would hinder the team for the next 5 years just to fulfill some arbitrary promise made in a radio interview.
It’s nonsensical. now take away the theoretical and it’s still the same issue– this is about being ready for the right game-changer, not about finding someone to plug in next season and hopefully get to 45 wins (not that that’s so easy anyway).
The Lakers have created a good-to-excellent nucleus of young players under rookie contracts. They have flexibility and cap space. They are on their way to being a very good team again in the next few years. What could be dumber than throwing that progress away for some ill-fated FAs who move the bar next season but might cost us our youth or our ability to strike when the right game-changer becomes available?
Gene says
So does Jeannie tell Phil Jackson needs to retire in 2 years if the Knicks are still
struggling….
T. Rogers says
Great comments all around. My own $0.02 is Jim needs to go at the end of the season. The team is not about to become a 50+ win playoff team by next season. And the limbo created by Jim’s timeline only serves to weaken the Lakers hand in free agency.
The Lakers need a FO house cleaning. Kobe is walking away. Now is a great time to close the chapter completely by resetting the organization from the top down. Let the new GM hire the next coach. Why waste time by waiting another year?
bluehill says
I agree with the Kam bros and others here about making the decision this year rather than waiting another year. I think part of the reasoning behind Jeanie’s periodic public reminders of the deadline is to be able to point back to it when she kicks Jim/Mitch out. I doubt she really believes that the team can go from almost worst to almost first in a years time. So this is all part of the posturing for the eventual move.
Not knowing what goes on at their family meetings maybe this deadline is necessary to deal with internal politics. Unfortunately, it doesn’t cast the organization in a good light and isn’t appealing to potential free agents.
Fern says
I post this in the prior thread by mistake: Fern February 23, 2016 at 12:45 pm
For me is this simple, if the ping pong balls dont bounce our way and we fail to make any significant splash in free agency Jim, Byron and Mitch needs to be fired. The entire regime needs to go. I dont mind Jimbo’s self imposed timeline, but promising a WCF? I would had settle for playoffs, unless some FA coup for the ages happen which is highly improbable, it’s an imposible task. I don’t trust Jeanie either and im terrified that her “Lakers Grand Recue Plan” is bringing PJ back to run the team and of course run the triangle which its been proven that w/o trancendent First Ballot HOF players just dont translate to wins. We need to get younger and with the times not only on the court.
rr says
But, according to this idiotic timeline, the Lakers should make moves that would hinder the team for the next 5 years just to fulfill some arbitrary promise made in a radio interview.
—
This was the VP of Basketball Ops promising in clear, concrete terms to step down at a certain time if a clear goal wasn’t reached. Also, for the record, it didn’t happen in a radio interview. Jim said it to Bresnahan after a meeting among the Busses themselves, and indicated that he made the promise to his siblings:
>Lakers owner and head of basketball operations Jim Buss says he told his family business during a January business meeting that he will step down if the Lakers do not return to contention within “three or fours years.” From the Los Angeles Times:
“I was laying myself on the line by saying, if this doesn’t work in three to four years, if we’re not back on the top — and the definition of top means contending for the Western Conference, contending for a championship — then I will step down because that means I have failed,” he told The Times about the meeting. “I don’t know if you can fire yourself if you own the team … but what I would say is I’d walk away and you guys figure out who’s going to run basketball operations because I obviously couldn’t do the job.
“There’s no question in my mind we will accomplish success. I’m not worried about putting myself on the line.”
Jei Shun says
Why include Mitch to step down?
he did a great job as a GM the past decade or so. Its just that , the odds did not favor with the Lakers. example is the CP3 trade. We had it but it was nixed by the NBA.
another example is the Nash and Howard trade, we also had it BUT we had a (somewhat wrong) coach to lay things out and Nash broke his leg in a accident and things started to brake down.
In the bright side, we did get JC, DLo, Randle and hopefully this 2016 draft pick and some young pieces to bulid from . and thats a great thing for us to leave the things in the past and live what we have right now. A new beggining of an new era of basketball.
lil pau says
rr,
point taken and I appreciate the correction.
still, the main point is… we have a plan in place that is working, a natural timeline that has been substantiated by good drafting and a logical pace of developing our young players. other than the fact that jim said it, what possible reason is there to adhere to a timeline that seems to be clearly at odds with our personnel and their likely timeframe to develop?
furthermore, i agree with Jei that there doesn’t seem to be any reason – or any defensible reason – to wed Mitch to Jim Buss. Mitch has executed the plan well– drafting successfully and prioritizing flexibility (1 year contracts) above all else. The only exception I see is Nick, but that’s not a fireable offense imo. I think Lou Williams can be a great (and cheap) 6th man moving forward….
The last few years have been brutal, but if we trade our youth for a Horford like player, I’m going burst a blood vessel (or worse, move to orange county to be closer to Ko’s bottomless supply of Italian red)
/LP
KevTheBold says
Wisdom true Lil pau; foresight it seems, is in short supply.
Either that, or it’s a shopaholic urge to buy or trade; any movement to scratch the itch, even if it becomes infected.
Clay Bertrand says
I strongly second rr and Jei….
When did Mitch just BECOME part of Jim Buss’s “Timeline” anyway????? Did Mitch stand by with Jim nodding in agreement or something?? OR did Mitch just NOT SAY ANYTHING because he is an employee??
I personally don’t think that Mitch is a bad basketball guy at all and I think you people with the THROW THE WHOLE FO OUT are just pulling ALL teeth to get rid of the cavity here!! Is Mitch a bad GM??
Please, anyone, provide some EVIDENCE that Mitch is a problem and that this down time for the team is due to HIS ACTIONS/INACTIONS.
I don’t see it. Who drafted the guys WE DO HAVE?!?!?!!? Danny Ainge isn’t drafting like Mitch. We are not where we are because Mitch mismanaged this team.
Specifically, why does Mitch deserve to be FIRED????
This narrative has even been taken up by the national pundits of late that Jim is LINKED with Mitch and NO ONE puts out any reasoning other than, “Oh they need to clean house…blah blah blah…”
Teamn says
rr,
It is almost too late, in many ways. The winning culture is just about gone and may take a very long time to recapture.
LordMo says
From the comments section from the link @Todd posted.
BINGO!
Knox PC
7 hours ago
A shell of their former glory. Blame that on holding on to a has-been too long to milk his marketing value. This broad doesn’t have a clue.
Freddie Last
5 hours ago
Yes, and in addition, going after Howard and Nash, getting rid of a solid front line consisting of Gasol, Odom, and, yes, Bynum, who actually had a pretty good year before being run out of town because he took his shirt off. Laker fans kept saying “championship or bust” when justifying getting Howard. Well, bust doesn’t feel so good, does it? This management turned a 50+ win team into a lottery pick team.
Clay Bertrand says
Hey Lord Mo, so you still follow Bynum’s career??? Yeah bro, he’s pretty dominant huh?? Just if you would, give us some of his recent stats. You can give us this year or last year OR THE YEAR BEFORE or an average or ANYTHING. Plus/Minus???
So we got rid of Bynum because he took his shirt off??!??!!?!?!?!?!? I thought it was because he had the knees of a 90 year old!!!!!
But what do I know???? All I got going for me is a fairly normally functioning memory.
SMH
Fern says
Clay as much as i respect Mitch accomplishments as the Lakers GM and i gave him a million passes before, he is responsible too, and LordMo, the trade for Howard was the best thing that could happen regarding Bynum, because we got a full season from Howard and Bynum didn’t made it to training camp, how many games has he played in the NBA since? We got the best we could get out of Bynum and ship him out before he broke down on us because it was just a matter of time…
Vasheed says
I personally think that if the Lakers are still in the hunt for the Playoffs next year Jim will get a lot more slack. You might say but he promised to contend for the WCF! However, I would predict that if they are even within striking distance of getting into the playoffs these forums will sound a lot different. You will hear discussions focused on how to micromanage things to eek out another win. A completely different tenor.
However, if the Lakers go through another season where by the All-Star break, fans are obsessing over wether or not the Lakers can keep a top 3 protected pick, then that will be the last nail in the coffin for Jim Bus.
LordMo says
Andrew get ur mind right bro! Lol
http://www.believethehypenba.com/2016/01/08/where-in-the-world-is-andrew-bynum/
TempleOfJamesWorthy says
I know it’s in the nature of sports fans to be irrational and advocate from their desires, not their knowledge, but please everyone…get a grip.
This process is FAR more random and unpredictable than people want to admit. So we assign heroes (Jerry Buss, Jeanie, PhilJax) and villains (Jimmy, Mitch, Byron), and we weave narratives in which the heroes and villains fit.
We ignore that Jeanie has shown her genius at running the Lakers by…um, remind me again. What has she done to gain credibility other than be attractive and personable on camera, date Phil, and moan about what a crap job Jim/Mitch are doing?
One poster above wanted a “young GM with a winning vision.” OK, who? What have Darrel Morey, Sam Henkie, Sam Presti, etc. ever won? OKC won ONE Finals game..and that’s it. If Durant leaves this summer, they’re toast. Houston is already toast. Philly is still YEARS away from even contending for a playoff spot. What have these “fresh young minds” really done?
Yes, some organizations have more success than others (San Antonio, Miami, Golden State recently). Typically, what you find in those organizations are:
1) Patience to endure the ups and downs of building a winning team
2) Superstar talent willing to sacrifice ego/shots/money/personal agendas for the good of team success.
If any of you have a sure-fire method of acheving 2), submit your names to every team in the league, because you have a future as an NBA GM. In reality, it takes a whole lot of luck and patience to build that kind of culture with the necessary talent to win in the NBA.
Maybe Jim (and Mitch?) should step down. Maybe the Lakers need a more professional organizational structure where the Busses are just owners, not executives. But unless whatever structure replaces the current one incorporates factors 1) and 2) mentioned above, it’s unlikely to have any more success than the current one.
rr says
Lil Pau-
One thing I disagree with is your statement that the Lakers have a plan in place that is working. Again: Jim said in public that he wanted to sign two max free agents, and the FO has gone hard after Anthony and Aldridge. Mitch has stated publicly that he thought the 2014 team could win over 40 games and that this year’s team would be a fringe playoff contender. The only way to turn those statements into a plan that matches the team out on the floor now is the various stealth tank narratives, and we saw those come out again earlier last week.
As to the young guys, R said it well a couple of days ago: yeah, the Lakers’ young guys have some talent, but every team in the NBA has some talent, and I would add that every bad team, except Brooklyn, which as I said in preseason is the only org. in the game clearly in worse shape than the Lakers are, has a couple of young guys they like, some of whom are already playing quite well: Okafor, Noel, Booker, Knight, Towns, Wiggins, Jokic, Mudiay, Porzingis, Antetokounmpo et al. And the lower-tier playoff contenders mostly have a guy like Lillard, Drummond, Harden, George, Wall, Cousins, and in one case, of course, Davis. Then after all those teams, you get to the Lakers.
The counters to this are that Byron is so terrible that firing him will be like adding a star, that he is holding back the young guys who will really show what they have when he is gone, and that the market and the brand will eventually kick in to take the Lakers to the FA Promised Land once their young core, as people like to call it, hits their stride. I hope that it works out that way—but that is just a hope.
That said, I think that a structural case can be made for giving the FO more time. But I don’t think that Russell/Randle/Clarkson/Black/Nance/Brown, in and of themselves, are enough to make that case.
Anonymous says
Mitch has a lot of experience and a proven track record as a GM. I agree that the people who want to see him go should point to a more convincing alternative.
Ryan West? Does he have the necessary experience? Granted, his father is as brilliant as Jim’s father was, but is that enough?
Phil? Is that who Jeanie wants to bring in once she’s gotten rid of Mitch? How confident can we be that this would turn things around? Or would it be another case of nepotism?
Some ambitious young guy? That takes us back to Mitch’s track record. Which isn’t all that bad. Change for the sake of change is not guaranteed to lead to better results.
Anon#1 says
I think Mitch’s future role depends upon who you can get to come to the Lakers. Jeanie is a supposed fan of Sam Presti — if she hits a home run and get him to come in then Mitch likely becomes a consultant to the organization. If she hires someone who is an up and coming GM, but hasn’t run a team before, then Mitch likely takes on a more a VP role with the new GM slotted under him.
While I certainly prefer Mitch over Jim as the person running player personnel I think its time for a complete change in leadership. So much has gone wrong these past years — did Jim just run over Mitch’s opinions and advice? Did Mitch buy in and support these moves? If Mitch played Jim’s game then how damaged is Mitch’s reputation around the league that he let a know nothing owner destroy the best franchise in team sports. I think there is enough evidence for Jeanie to say, ‘Mitch we value your input and want to keep you on as a consultant but we’re going to let Sam Presti run the Lakers.’
Again, in my mind, its time to open the doors and windows folks. The Lakers leadership has become so insular — always playing catch up in areas that give other teams competitive advantages. I’m not talking just analytics, training/medical and international scouting — I’m talking leveraging the 3pt shot and playing small ball.
Mid-Wilshire says
About two years ago, I suggested that the Lakers should reconcile themselves to a 5-year Strategic Plan, just as they do in the business world when a company is trying to turn itself around.
Many corporations have found themselves in a Turn Around situation — IBM in the early 1990s, Apple in 2000-02, Yahoo and Hewlett-Packard today, Chrysler Corporation in the 1980s, and so forth. It happens to the biggest and the best of them. Right now, it’s happening to the Lakers. It’s actually the norm.
My suggested time line (as I recall) was as follows:
Years 1-3 — Concentrate on acquiring talent (drafts, trades, and, if possible, Free Agency);
Years 2-4 — Refine the skills of the primarily younger players by teaching 1) team defense and 2) having them learn to play together as a team; in the process, they will hopefully gain an identity and build a strong team chemistry;
Year 5 — Put the finishing touches on to the team by addressing any lingering areas of weakness that need improvement (as Steve Kerr did so masterfully last year with GS).
The Lakers are still in Year #2 of that 5-Year Period. They’re 1/3 of the way through the entire process. It could even take longer than 5 years. It probably won’t take less.
Therefore, we must embrace the following:
1) Patience; these things take time;
2) We must continue to acquire talent; we’re still in that phase (BTW, this is a real strength of Mitch Kupchak; we should not even think of getting rid of him until that process is completed);
3) We must bring in an outstanding Head Coach who is truly adept at mentoring young players; that coach, for all we know, may not even be in the NBA right now; this is a major priority.
If the Lakers commit themselves to this sort of timeline, then they will have a much better chance of success than they would if we were to jettison Mitch Kupchak in some sort of wild, mob-rule frenzy of cleaning house.
Years, like the current one, are very painful. But they’re also necessary. Golden State went through it. So did OKC who, in the first year of the pairing of Russ Westbrook and Kevin Durant, started off that season 3-29.
The Lakers are in the early stages of a Turn Around. Let’s give it a chance to work. We are still acquiring young talent and doing that very well. My instincts tell me that we may need Mitch Kupchak to guide us through the entire process. I believe has the experience and the vision. He certainly has the Resume. There aren’t too many GMs with his credentials.
Anon#1 says
I know it’s in the nature of sports fans to be irrational and advocate from their desires, not their knowledge, but please everyone…get a grip.
___
Stop being afraid of change — we can do better than Jim Buss. Its not like he’s being kicked to the curb — he’ll just be an owner.
What has Sam Presti done? He took a struggling franchise in a brand new city and made then one of the most relevant teams in the NBA. The Lakers have so many built in advantages that other franchises don’t have. I don’t look at Presti and say he hasn’t won anything I look at him and say he can help the Lakers win.
Stop settling for mediocrity!
rr says
OK, who?
—
I gave a lengthy list of possible candidates weeks ago. Finding a young guy from a winning org to take the job would not be hard at all. And it does in fact take luck nad timing to build a really good team, much less a great one. But a competitive team can be built with some smarts and a little time–Utah, Detroit, and Portland are good examples.
I think people are mostly frustrated by the internally contradictory elements of how the FO has handled the landscape post-Kobe injury and post-Howard and of course, by Byron. I think if the young guys were playing under some well-regarded youngish coach most people could deal with the losing.
As to the heroes/villains/narrative/irrationality stuff: apply those words to yourself the next time you take either a direct or veiled shot at Kobe. He didn’t sign himself to the extension.
lil pau says
rr, we can agree to disagree (and I do want to say that I am usually a big fan of your posts), but to clarify: I’m always going to judge the Lakers based on what they’ve DONE rather than what they SAID they want to do or apparently TRIED to do. There are plenty of insider types, for example, who claim that the Lakers did not sincerely go after Melo once it was clear they could not pair him with LBJ, that they went through a kind of b.s. protocol in deference to his agents. I have no idea if this is true or not, but if so, it would change the narrative, don’t you think? Mitch (and management) have generally played their (actual) cards close to the vest; that strategy includes misrepresenting ostensible strategy for a variety of reasons– competitive advantage, pleasing season ticket holders, etc. We can disagree (and I think we do) on where the Lakers stand in terms of their actual personnel (I am certainly more bullish on the kids than you seem to be and would value them higher than most [but not all] of those other players you listed), but I want to make it clear that I will always judge this team on what they have actually done rather than what they may – or may not – have tried to accomplish. There’s so much we don’t know– so many conversations between agents and management that speak to the likelihood of acquiring different players down the road. The point is, for me, I like our roster construction and think Mitch has done a great job executing the plan. Of course, it depends on a homerun down the road (a stud FA or, better, a pair of them who want to play together), but that’s the right approach imo, even as i acknowledge it could certainly backfire in a Waiting for Godot kind of way. I understand and respect that you feel differently.
lil pau says
if it’s not apparent, I am firmly in the mid-wilshire camp. his plan seems just about perfect to me.
Darius Soriano says
While I fully agree there would have been pitfalls to signing Carmelo and/or Pau, LMA, etc there is a part of me which also chuckles at fans talking about those players in a bad light when the Lakers are, along with Philly, the worst team in the league. One can argue the ceiling of what a team with Melo/LMA as its anchors would be, but that sort of team with reasonable role players would be far improved over this tire fire of a team.
Also, one never knows how team building is affected by free agency wins like the ones described above. Does the perception shift if Jim/Mitch close on those two guys? Are the Lakers now viewed as a “destination” again? Does playing with those two guys mean something to other, lower level FA’s? I don’t know the answers to those questions, but they are worthwhile questions if we’re really going to discuss hypotheticals.
Anyways.
Anonymous says
Lil pau–
The problems with that are:
1. We are not sure that the young guys are really all that. Rebuilds guarantee nothing. Ask the Timberwolves, the Wizards, the Kings, and any number of other franchises.
2. Mid-Wilshire isn’t the VP of Basketball Ops.
That said, Jim and Mitch would be getting less heat if they had said something along those lines after Kobe went down and Howard walked. Instead, as I have said, they appear to have tried and failed to be Dallas:
1. Maintain a competitive team built around an old franchise legend.
2. Leave enough cap space open to chase high-level free agents.
As to Mitch, he does have a pretty good drafting record, and the recent picks look pretty good. His record on building benches and picking up cheap, useful veterans, going back to the Samaki Walker years, is a little spottier.
rr says
DS,
You’re missing the point: Aldridge and Anthony are very good players, but a lot of people want to give credit to the FO for a slick start on a rebuild in getting this young group together when that doesn’t appear to have been what the FO actually wanted to do. That’s why other people, including me, bring up the failed FA chases.
As to the hypothetical team that they might have had with those guys, you are leaving two things out: 1) Kobe signed his extension before they went after either of those guys, and 2) the FO also supposedly offered Pau 2/20 to stay. So, if that had gone through, they would have had Pau/Kobe/Melo as the core, and Aldridge is not on the table. In fact, I am not sure he would be on the table with Kobe/Melo and no Pau given how much of the cap Kobe and Melo would have taken up.
rr says
I have no idea if this is true or not, but if so, it would change the narrative, don’t you think?
—
Not for me, no, especially since we have no way of knowing some stuff as you say. We know that the Lakers met with Anthony multiple times and it was reported that they offered him a max deal. We know that they met with Aldridge twice and supposedly would have offered him a max deal.
Like I have said, I do think a structural case can be made for keeping the current FO in place based on:
1. Wanting another run for Jerry Buss and Kobe before the sun went down on Dr. Buss’ life and Kobe’s career leading to the Nash and Howard deals.
2. The Veto
3. The CBA
4. The recent picks
5. Needing some stability to hire the next coach.
But I do not think that case can be made on the young guys alone, or on conspiracy theories.
And I am big fan of your posts, and I hope that the young guys are as good as you think they are.
Anonymous says
once it was clear they could not pair him with LBJ
__
Jim/Mitch were so brilliant that in crafting the Kobe extension that there wasn’t enough room to sign two max free agents that summer. So even if Lebron and Melo wanted to come to LA it couldn’t be done.
Anonymous says
Temple of Worthy: keep posting please. It’s a nice break from the gloom and doom trash constantly posted by rr, Robert, KO and a handful of others.
david h says
darius: we get it; in a perfect world we would have been jockeying for playoff position with said retention (pau) and/or free acquisition last summer. for one thing, Byron would have been getting his wins and in all likelihood the young core would be less under the gun. consequently, the day to day narrative would be different and lottery pick yearning and tanking would be a distant memory.
the good old days…thanks for the reminder.
Go lakers
Robert says
Mid: “The Lakers are still in Year #2 of that 5-Year Period” How can you say this? What were we doing in the 2013-2014 season? This was MD’s last year. We had already lost DH and Kobe had already been injured. So how was that year not already the start of the rebuild? We have been horrible for 3 years. To say we are only 2 years into a rebuild is really saying the FO does not know what it is doing. We are 3 years in or we were asleep at the switch. With regard to your corporate comparisons, they always embark on new 5 year plans, with new management. Can you imagine presenting before the board of directors?: Well we took a big gamble (Nash/DH), and it failed. We then meandered around for another year trying to figure out what we wanted to do (the last MD year), and then we embarked on a rebuild, although we told shareholders we would be competitive during the rebuild. The last 3 years have been the most unprofitable in company history. So please give us 5 years to fix this. Sound compelling?
Chris J says
“So even if Lebron and Melo wanted to come to LA it couldn’t be done.”
———-
That made me think of Aaron, and how much more enjoyable this site has become sans his never-ending nonsense. So a sincere thanks again for that, Darius.
Mid-Wilshire says
Robert,
Thanks for your note. It’s always good to hear from you.
I stated that we are in the 2nd year of our re-build because virtually none of the players from Mike D’Antoni’s last year will be part of the long-term solution. I strongly suspect that Nick Young and Robert Sacre will be gone from the team within 2 years. And, of course, Jodie Meeks, Xavier Henry, and Jordan Hill have long since departed. As a result, there was no true rebuilding going on at that time…just treading water.
However, last year things changed. The Lakers drafted (quite wisely, I think) Julius Randle and Jordan Clarkson. (Technically, Clarkson was purchased, not drafted, from the Wizards. Even so, it was a shrewd, even brilliant, acquisition.) Also, the Lakers signed Tarik Black off of waivers. From that point on, then, the re-build (as I see it) was in motion. These are all players who could potentially play a role in the Lakers’ long-term future.
That process continued this season with the drafting of D’Angelo Russell , Larry Nance, Jr., and Anthony Brown. That means that in two years the Lakers have added anywhere from 4 to 6 young players who could potentially be a significant part of the team’s future.
Because all of this began to unfold last year, I measure the “turn around” from the 2014-15 season — especially with the emergence of Jordan Clarkson.
In another 3 years, Clarkson will be 26, Nance, Jr., will also be 26, Randle will be 24, and Russell will be all of 22.
Players of that age rarely win championships. But they can certainly begin to contend. And with the addition of a few more pieces, they Lakers could actually have a legitimate future to look forward to.
Of course, time will tell. In any event, it will all have taken 5 years, maybe more. Regardless of the starting point, I sense that the Lakers could actually be moving in the right direction. Let’s hope for the best.
Bruce McNall says
Temple O’ Worthy: Great post. Keep ’em coming.
rr says
It’s a nice break from the gloom and doom trash constantly posted by rr, Robert, KO and a handful of others.
—
Feel free to scroll past my posts or to attempt to use specifics to refute them. And feel free to choose a handle, especially since one of the many Anonymi is far more critical of the FO than I am.
Clay Bertrand says
Sam Presti had LUCK, a High Lotto pick, Greg Oden, and the Portland Trailblazers to have Durant fall into his lap. I give him credit for Westbrook who many thought was a reach or unproven.
But who traded James Harden?? Sam Presti.
Harden was close runner up for MVP last season.
The Thunder have VERY if little if anything to show for that trade and a lot of analysts believe he got completely fleeced. Some would say among the worst trades in modern NBA history. Even Memphis ended up with Marc Gasol for trading Pau. The Harden trade makes our little gripes about getting nothing for Howard and Pau sound pitiful. Sam Presti destroyed a Finals Team because of monetary concerns that had not even fully played out yet.
When you have a lottery pick and its a once in a generation type of draft that’s just the luck of being bad at the right time. The Sonics/Thunder got Kevin Durant. But very few drafts HAVE a generational game changer. The Spurs, already a decent team, had David Robinson get shut down with a “BAD BACK” for nearly a full season and they ended up with the first pick in the draft who happened to be Tim Duncan. Wow Buford and the Spurs are pure geniuses!!!!
Sam Presti is under contract with the Thunder. Meaning, we are not hiring Sam Presti.
Mitch Kupchak is a home grown Laker GM. He’s not Billy King or a Colangelo or some other retread who has been with several teams. He has been a level headed rational face of the FO in this time of generational overhaul since Dr. Buss died and his drafting has been pretty good (I would argue at least well above average). I’m fine with him staying around as long as Jim Buss isn’t allowed in Mitch’s office other than to drop of his checks.
Its the BUSS kids that need to go. They need to go and be OWNERS not EMPLOYEES.
I can’t be the only one who sees that the OWNERS acting (and I do mean “acting”) as basketball professionals as the most major flaw in the Lakers leadership.
rr says
Clay,
Good reminders. All great teams have luck and timing that plays into their roster construction. But I don’t think most people who are down on the FO are complaining because the Lakers aren’t great.
Clay Bertrand says
rr,
“But I don’t think most people who are down on the FO are complaining because the Lakers aren’t great.”
_____________________________________________________________________________
I was more responding to the calls for Mitch’s head and the tossing around of names of employed GMs that we are not going to be able to hire. I liked a few names on your list (a couple of weeks back) and honestly, you are the only poster besides me here who has mentioned any realistic pool of potential up and coming GMs (Sean Marks just got plucked) when calling for FO change.
I think most people are just crying over spilled milk with the “THE FO SUCKS BECAUSE THEY TRADED FOR NASH AND HOWARD AND DIDN’T HIRE PJ AND NOW LOOK AT THE TEAM” claims when we all know at the time, those trades looked to be championship moves. Nash had what turned out to be a career ending injury, Howard left and Kobe had a career ending (IMO) injury. Neither Nash nor Kobe’s injury was the fault of their coaches (MB & MDA) and now some fans claim they saw it all coming and that the FO was foolish to make these deals and the coaches were terrible hires.
Hindsight truly is talking out of your HIND and of course, its 20/20!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, this thread has been one of the most impassioned we’ve seen all season IMO. Darius knows he just has to title the thread with the mention of JIM BUSS and the natives get crazy!!
Anonymous says
But who traded James Harden?? Sam Presti.
__
OKC’s owner did not want to pay a tax. Plus OKC already had two players that needed the ball: Westbrook and Durant. Integrating a third would have been problematic. But the original driver of the deal was ownership.
You can give Presti credit for drafting Harden, however.
LordMo says
It has been such a great run over the years that this is tough for us and going to probably get worse before it gets better. According to my biz guru (Marcus Lemonis) Second Generation businesses have over a 60 percent failure rate and Third up to 90. Yikes! As great as the Buss Ownership has been it was Dr. Jerry Buss who was the visionary. His offspring do not seem to have what it is going to take to run the ship. Steady decline since his illness took him away from the day to day. We might not be back to the level of success we are accustomed to until a ownership change takes place.
http://www.inc.com/graham-winfrey/the-profit-grafton-furniture.html
Clay Bertrand says
Anon, I DO give Presti credit for drafting Harden.
I understand the context but the trade was still crappy. They knew they had to get an extension done and had a year to do it. They made a strong offer to keep him and then they made the trade hastily right before the deadline to sign extensions and got a pile of NOTHING in return.
Harden himself felt the trade was hasty and claimed he was given little time to decide on the Thunder’s contract offer.
http://www.slamonline.com/nba/james-harden-says-okc-thunder-didn%E2%80%99t-give-him-enough-time-to-consider-final-offer/#u5sIcPr0HiwLo7O2.97
This could all just be post trade posturing and there is only ONE ball with KD, Westbrook already splitting time with it. Presti thought Ibaka would be a better fit for positional balance. I understand that ownership was also a factor. Ownership is a factor with the Lakers as well.
My point is the return for Harden was BAD then and its BAD now and Sam Presti is not infallible. I have never read that OKC Owners demanded/forced that trade. In fact, they made a strong though not max offer to keep him and he was considering it.
Everyone is fixated on this JEANNIE BUSS LIKES SAM PRESTI narrative. Really?? So Jeannie thinks the GM of one of the TOP 3 teams in the league is a good GM?!??!!?!? BRAVO Jeannie!!!! SOOOO outside the box!! SOOOOO shrewd!!!! TO quote Willie Wonka (the REAL one not J.Depp) “She’s a girl who knows where she’s GOING!”
Patrick O'Connor says
To get into the second round of the playoffs likely means getting to at least the fifth seed in the rankings. RIght now that slot is held by the Grizzlies who have a 23.5 game lead on the Lakers. I couldn’t find a record for all-time most improved NBA team in one year but I am betting it is less than 24 games. And the Lakers are likely to fall further behind with 23 games left to play. If I was betting person I would not bet the Lakers show this level of improvement.
Selectah says
@Patrick O’Connor
that is a lost bet. there are multiple teams that had a swing of even more than 30 games. the spurs alone had 2 swings of 35 and 36 games in the 1990s (both courtesy of david robinson, among others).
http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=list/050110/nbaturnarounds
R says
Our hated Celtics 2007-2008 edition improved by 42 wins over the previous season.
How soon they forget!