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M*A*S*H* Unit

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I am not Hawkeye Pierce, but I’m happy to play him on the Internet.

[UPDATE]Test results (MRI and ultrasound) show a “mild to moderate” hamstring strain for Pau Gasol. Officially, Gasol is “doubtful” (no way he will play) and is day-to-day after that. I will add this: Gasol is aware of his body in a way most NBA players are not. This is a man raised by a doctor, he may tend toward caution with hamstrings but it’s because when he tried to come back to fast last time there were setbacks. It frustrated Phil, but Gasol has to do what is right for him. If this takes some time, so be it. Get it healthy now, because when it is June the Lakers need him healthy.

Look for a Bynum/Odom/Artest starting front court against Houston.

Now on to good news: [UPDATE] Ron Artest pracitced with the team and should be ready to go Tuesday (Jackson still has to give the final okay). He said there were no after effects from a hard practice, Jackson said his offense looked rusty but his defense should be fine. Again, I have no problem with the delay. I’m a believer that, especially with concussions, players and teams need to take their time and be patient. Ron Artest needed to get his head right, relatively, before returning.

[UPDATE] Luke Walton met with doctors today but was not cleared for full practices. He did take part in 3-on-3 drills and is expected to start practicing Thursday. Look for a return Sunday or next week.

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My two cents on blowing out Dallas: It means about as much as the Mavericks blowing the Lakers out a couple months ago. One well played game in January is not the team turning some proverbial corner, they need to play like that over a stretch of games to show that. Add in, that was about as bad as Dallas can play. They came out flat (blame the back-to-back if you want) and the game got away from them and snowballed. It happens to everyone. It happened to the Lakers on Christmas Day. Neither of those games means squat come a playoff series in May or June.

—————————————————————————–

Darius added these thoughts about Fisher:

I bring up these players and these stats to reiterate the point that no team can be stacked at every position. What teams can hope for is balance with its entire team and to have good replacements and bench players that create a solid team overall. I don’t think any person could claim that because Denver starts Carter/Afflalo/Graham at SG that they’re a bad team (I think the argument would really go something like the Nuggs are a contender because of ‘Melo/Billups and their size/talent at PF/C). Similarly, I don’t think anyone would say that the Spurs aren’t contenders because they start McDyess at C or Finley/Bogans at SG (you’d still point to Duncan/Parker/Ginobili and say those guys are the core and they’ll need to get it done). So, when we look at the Lakers, why is it that Fisher is the guy that is going to hold us back? I mean, are we relying on Fisher in a way that is going to trump the contributions of Kobe/Pau/Bynum/LO/Artest?


Reader Interactions

Comments

  2. jodial says

    If Pau does have to miss any time, maybe the Lakers can sign the “Pau Gasol Impersonator” to a 10-day. Just so the team stays in rhythm.

  3. The STD says

    The point about Fisher is a little off because the Nugs have JR Smith behind those guys.

    WOW isn’t quite there yet, nor is Farmar. Therein lies the problem.

  4. BOOBOO says

    While that’s all well and true, I still can’t think of a worst starting PG than Fisher. Luckily, Fisher fits the triangle offense, or he’d be out of a job (maybe).

  5. Mamula says

    BooBoo,

    Please penalize yourself for saying that! D-Fish would be in this league even if he were not getting any minutes on the court. What Lakers fans need to understand is that the true value of Fish to this team is not usually (except for historic crunch time situations) on the court, but in the locker room, on the plane, in the huddle.

    Guys like Fish are more difficult to find than Farmars or ShanWOWs of the world

  6. LT says

    I realize that Laker fans are spoiled, but I think it is reasonable for Laker fans to want a starting PG that is at least better than most BACKUP PGs. Our team does not have to be stacked at every position, but at the same time, there shouldn’t be any liabilities in the starting lineup either. (Orlando, Boston and Cavs do not have any liabilities in their starting units). Anyway you slice it, Fish has been a liability on both ends of the floor for quite some time now. For me, his leadership, outside shooting and clutch play made up for his lack of athleticism and his inability to guard opposing PGs. The bigger concern for me is his Smush-like decision making of late, his propensity to drive to the basket and throw up hail marys (yes, a driving layup for Fish is in deed a hail mary) and pray for a bailout call, his forced shots and his recent inability to run the offense. If your starting PF is better at running a fast break than your starting PG, than there is a problem.

    Seriously, am I the only one who is petrified at the possibility of Fish playing 35 minutes a game in the finals against either Mo Williams, Rondo or Jameer Nelson? The biggest advantage our team has is obviously at SG. Well this advantage will be pretty much washed out by the huge disadvantage Fish will have against the PGs of these elite teams.

  8. Archon says

    I like the fact that Phil is playing Sasha more. I think he’s come to the conclusion (like I have) that in the playoffs teams are going to swarm Gasol and Bynum and force the lakers to consistantly hit open 3’s. Right now nobody on our team is capable of doing that. That Sasha of 06/07 is gone and never coming back, but if he can hit just enough 3’s to be a deterrence from the hard double down on our big man then it will greatly free up the offense.

  9. j.d. Hastings says

    If I may be permitted a little rant:

    If the Lakers play Houston on Tuesday without Artest and Pau, we don’t have to listen to Houston’s sob story about missing Yao/ McGrady, right? The Lakers will be missing about the same amount of talent as they are, so they should be considered even right?

    In fact, considering that the Rockets have basically conceded that they were holding TMac out for reasons other than injury, we should be able to discount that portion of their sob story straight off. So even if only Pau is missing, we should call it square.

    All credit to the accomplishments of this scrappy Rockets team, and GM Morey for putting it together, I’m just saying people need to credit that instead of lamenting the losses at this point, or the “40 million$” that aren’t playing. Nobody forced them to sign 2 injury prone stars for that much cash, nor sit 1 of them because they just aren’t that into him. Nor should the Lakers have to apologize that they spent enough to ensure their roster is deep enough to not look depleted even though 2 starters are hurt.

    Meanwhile Portland, Denver (now down Billups and Carmelo) , San Antonio (general malaise), Golden State, the Clippers and to a much much lesser extent the Lakers have all had their own health issues.

    I’m not saying that anybody in Houston has whined or made excuses, but I don’t know if the general narrative about their team has kept up with developments: They are short 1 franchise center and gave up on another former all star (actually 2 if you count artest). They didn’t have anybody over 6’8 to take that center’s place because of their own personel decisions. They deserve all the credit for what success they have, but don’t deserve much more sympathy than any of the other teams with injury problems to their frontlines.

  11. Zephid says

    Me thinks that Phil is starting to get my Zen vibes and my Start Sasha! mantra. Slowly but surely, he will come around.

    Start Sasha! Start Sasha!

    Perhaps a whisper this time…

    start sasha… start sasha…

    On a slightly more serious note, it was pretty obvious that the team really really worked on their PNR defense these past few days. Their switches were crisp, the recoveries were quick with good angles on the close outs, and they were able to protect the rim when needed.

    For all the crap Odom gets, he does play great PNR defense. The Sacto games were so close because Bynum couldn’t even come close to Hawes when Hawes popped out on the screens, whereas Odom was able to help off Dirk on the screens then recover in time to affect or dissuade Dirk’s shot. Also credit Sasha, Farmar, and Fisher for playing some solid D.

    Yesterday was like a perfect storm of destruction coming together over Dallas’ foreheads. Dallas was tired, on the last night of a road trip, just waiting to get home. The Lakers had a couple of days to really work on their defense and offense in practice, and were really motivated from their less than stellar performances of late. Throw in the fact that all the guys couldn’t miss no matter how horrible the shots they took (Shannon Brown’s three’s come to mind), and you’ve got a blowout. Our guys, especially the bench, were due for a big game; it just so happened to come against a tired squad that beat us in our first home game, so the revenge factor was there as well.

    If Sasha can continue to make 40% of his three’s, not foul on defense, and rebound as hard as he has been, I think my dream of Sasha starting will come true soon.

    Start Sasha! Start Sasha!

  12. Burgundy says

    Regarding Fisher, Darius’ point is correct with the following caveat:

    If Fish is shooting more than 5 times a game, HE IS holding the team back. As long as Fish plays within himself (ie only takes wide open three pointers and doesn’t try to attack the rim) and doesn’t turn the ball over, then yes, Fish isn’t holding the team back.

  13. j.d. Hastings says

    I just went to 82Games.com to check out the specifics on our PG production. On average we are allowing opposing PGs a PER of 17.3. According to espn:

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?qual=true&sort=per&league=nba&page=2&seasonType=2&qualCnt=60&qualIndex=61

    That means we face a Tony Parker/ Jamal Crawford/ Monta Ellis level player every night. Of course, Ty Lawson, Allen Iverson and Nate Robinson all have PERs higher than those 3, so take from this as you will. Considering that we actually face these players on most nights, it could be worse.

    On the other hand, our production at PG is only 11.2 on average, which is slightly worse than Earl Watson. Ouch.

    However, it should be noted that Fisher’s 9.15 PER IS better than Rafer Alston, Chucky Atkins or Kevin Ollie (he’s still in the league??), so we do have that going for us.

    I’d say the difference between our PG spot and the other weak positions noted by Darius is that the Lakers suffer on both ends of the court, leading to a -6 PER at the position. Denver’s SG’s, even without JR, do defend well, and opposing SGs average under a PER of 15. San Antonio is the closest to our gap, where their PF position is a -4 (Duncan is considered a C). Compare this to the Celtics, who are at least +2 at every position.

    I do agree that this isn’t panic-inducing, but it is easily the most glaring weakness among contenders on both ends of the floor.

  14. j.d. Hastings says

    Zephid- your dream did kind of come true last night. Sasha started the second half since Odom moved to the 4 in Pau’s absence. I’m not sure if that was situational, or because he was playing so well from an all around prespective last night.

  15. drrayeye says

    We’ve had a very similar discussion about Derek some time ago. It led the Lakers to bring in the most stellar defensive PG of his time–“The Glove.” We all remember how that turned out.

    Derek was picked up and paid more on other teams–could have stayed for more pay with the Jazz.

    Derek does what Phil wants him to do. He gets less pay here–but should get more for all the unfair abuse he takes from some on this blog and others.

    All Derek seems to do is to play on NBA championship teams. . . . .

    I guess he’s just lucky.

  16. Snoopy2006 says

    LakerFan – http://www.paugasolimpersonator.com/

    9 – Agreed. We either need everyone to do a passable job, or we need 1 or 2 players to catch fire in the playoffs (like Ariza and Odom last year) to keep the defenses honest. That, to me, is even more critical than the PG position, because our offense will sputter unless we can prevent the defense from collapsing.

  17. wondahbap says

    j.d. hastings,

    No Rockets fan should use Yao being out as any type of excuse because they are better without him. They have been for some time now. Especially against LA, since it means more Carl Landry, Chuck Hayes, and Aaron Brooks. I say Brooks because he doesn’t have to bother to pass it into the post. Instead he gets to take wild shots or bad passes. The the three players who give us fits in their own way. I think Daryl Morey has a convenient problem with Yao’s injury, because they are better without him, but it buys every Rockets fan an excuse AND a reason to be proud of their team…

    I’ll say it…Yao is overrated.

    Also…Rockets fans may tell you that T-Mac and Yao weren’t Morey signings, so neither of them fit what Morey seems to look for. I’m interested to see what he’ll do with money to spend. It’s easy to find good value guys when you don’t have to spend for them. How does he spend that money on a player who fits his specs? Billy Beane opted against dealing with that pressure when he passed on being GM of the Boston Red Sox years back.

  18. Aaron says

    Darius,
    I don’t think anyone is saying the Lakers are not the best team in the NBA. And it is hard to compare PG to any other position in the league. PG’s in the association are a dime a dozen. Most people would put Mo Williams and Jameer Nelson somewhere near the middle of the pack and they were both all stars last season. There are just so many good PG’s.

    I also don’t know of any other PG that gets to play with Kobe, Artest, Lamar, Gasol, and Bynum every minute of the game. I shutter to think of the godly shooting percentages bad NBA PG (20-30) Beno Udrih would put up on the Lakers.

    PER tells a great story offensively but it doesn’t account for defense. Most people complain of Fisher’s inability to make a lay up or shoot an open jump shot… but it is his 35 year old D that really sinks the Lakers ship.

    You seem to think Derek doesn’t effect the game because he is playing with so much talent around him. However, the easiest way to improve a team is to replace a bad player with an average player. Just like a Kobe or Lebron make everyone around them better a player like Derek Fisher (at this point in his career) will make everyone around him that much worse on both sides of the ball.

    lastly you speak about somebody needing to make it impossible for Phil to keep Fisher in the starting lineup. This isn’t Eddie Jones fending off a young Kobe. Derek Fisher isn’t a serviceable player. He is the worst starting PG in the entire NBA and probably couldn’t play back up PG on any other team in the league. And don’t say the Lakers system is different. Derek was a traditional PG coming out of college. He isn’t Shannon Brown, Sasha, or Ron Harper. The guy is a traditional PG. He is 6 ft and gets people involved. He isn’t a scoring PG who attacks the basket often but he is a traditional PG.

    Taking Fisher out of the rotation completely is all the more easy now that we know Sasha can play well given the minutes. Brown and Farmat share the PG minutes and Sasha can step in as the back up SG.

  19. Darius says

    Aaron,
    Thank you for your opinion. I’m not going to really talk Fisher with you, though. We do, and will continue to, just have to agree to disagree. Our line(s) of thinking on this topic aren’t even in the same ballpark and it just leads to bickering that does nothing but lower the level of commentary on this site. I’m not saying that you’re insight is wrong or invalid, it’s just different than mine and I’d rather not have the back and forth anymore.

  20. robinred says

    Re-posted from other thread:

    Re. Fisher/Farmar

    I agree that some of what Fisher does is not captured in numbers; a lot of that is that Fisher understands his role on the team. Also, as noted by many, including Farmar himself, Farmar’s skills and preferences do not fit the triangle and this team that well. Farmar likes to play in transition and create off the dribble.

    That said, some of what Fisher does DOES show up in the numbers. As per Basketball Reference:

    2008/9:

    FARMAR 3P% 33.6 TO% 16.3
    FISHER 3P% 39.7 TO% 8.8

    This year, however, we see a different picture:

    2009/10

    FARMAR 3P% 35.9 TO% 12.7
    FISHER 3P% 35.2 TO% 14.1

    So, if Fisher is not knocking dowm more 3s than Farmar is and is turning the ball over more, that would seem to be an argument to give Farmar more time. Fisher’s value is mostly in knowing his role, avoiding mistakes, and hitting 3s.

  21. The Dude Abides says

    I missed this during last night’s blowout, but it was captured on Ball Don’t Lie. Ammo is one funny dude, and the victim of his little prank was that nihilist Tim Thomas, who was trash talking in the 4th while his team was cutting a 43-pt deficit down to 34:
    http://tinyurl.com/ycakng8

    Edit: forgot to give the hat tip to the original blogger who posted the video of Ammo, but Snoopy beat me to it below.

  23. Snoopy2006 says

    Whoops the Dude beat me to it. I still can’t figure out if he’s awkwardly hilarious on purpose, or if he honestly didn’t see the Mav behind him and thought “Well, I can’t let this poor guy hold his hand out for nothing.” Or maybe he just got excited that another NBA player had acknowledged him.

    • Kurt says

      Quick injuries update: Artest practiced and is good to go tomorrow, Walton took part in 3-on-3 but no full contact, something that may come Thursday with him returning next week. No word yet on Gasol.

  24. Franky says

    Way off topic,

    Reading all the material on the best and worst of the 2000’s, it amazed me at how manty times the 4th quarter of game 6 in the 02′ confrence finals came up. Perhaps it still resonates because of the Donaghy scandal, but it seems like real baskerball people are still upset about it.

    I went back and watched the game and would be lying if I said there weren’t some curious calls. But lets remember that Shaq was in his prime and extremely tough for an official to call. Besides for that, there were a tone of calls that game. The lakers shot 40 fts, but Sacramento got their fair share with 25. That’s a ft descrepancy 15, hardly something unique with the Lakers when they had both Shaq and Kobe in their primes.

    For all of the conspiracy theorists, I only have to show you game 2 of 08′ finals ( I wasn’t aware of this site at the time, so I don’t know what the sentimant was here), to me the worst officiated game I’ve ever seen. Ft descrepancy in that game was 28, almost double of that in the 02′ game. That’s right, Boston shot 38 fts to the Lakers 10 in that game, a game the Lakers wound up losing by 6. For all I hear about the Celtics “dismanteling the Lakers”, and how “the refs won that game for the Lakers” against Sacto, I don’t hear one word about that game 2 in Boston.

    I may just be acting as a Laker homer when I say this, but I honestly believe that was the difference in the Boston series. Just think, If we win that game and get at least 2 at home, we could have gotten 1 out of the last 2 in Boston, a far cry from the supposed dismanteling everyone talks about.

  25. Tsig says

    KB-4 rings
    TD-4 rings
    SO-4 rings
    DF-4 rings

    Derek has something that can’t be quantified by stats; true grit. He’s also fearless. The ladies love him too.

    He can’t corral the PG’s who rely on sheer speed like Tony Parker, or Rondo, but he does a better job on D-Will than anyone else on our team.

    Ariza provided us with defensive footspeed and could keep opposing PG’s out the paint, this team’s still learning how to make up for what he brought. Our three guard lineup may be useful for this.

    We’ll see how many Brooks scores tomorrow night.

    16 is the only number I’m concerned with this year.

  26. Jay says

    Franky, you don’t have to even go that far to find an equally lopsided game. The very game BEFORE Game 6.

    Shaq fouled out and shot (wait for it) ONE FREE THROW the entire game. Kobe was literally undressed with a King having a full fistful of jersey on the final play trying to get the last shot off. I should mention that this is a game the Lakers ended up losing by one point.

    The mythos of Game 6 continues to grow, but the entire series outside of Game 7 was as shaky as it gets. I don’t believe the league had any ulterior motive in deciding the eventual NBA champion, but when you look at that 96 minute stretch of basketball, it’s very hard to argue against the league desperately wanting a 7th game.

  27. Icaros says

    To my eyes, Shannon Brown was a better defender against D-Will in last year’s playoff series, and Farmar has looked better against him so far this season. Not sure what the stats say, though.

  29. j.d. Hastings says

    In that Sacto series, the Kings were:

    Game 1: -5 FTA, +5 PF
    Game 2: +13 FTA, -6 PF
    Game 3: +20 FTA, -9 PF
    Game 4: -1 FTA, -1 PF
    Game 5: +16 FTA, -7 PF
    Game 6: -15 FTA, +7 PF
    Game 7: -3 FTA, +5 PF

    Series Totals: +25 FTA, -6 PFs

    The Kings had 3 games with heavily favorable officiating, all wins for them. The Lakers got 1.

  30. Aaron says

    Darius,
    Don’t worry… you don’t have to reply to any of my comments. I just try to give you food for thought. You will soon come around. You know far too much about the game of basketball for love and commitment to blind you for too much longer

    J.D.,
    Great comment on our PG situation. You echoed my thoughts exactly except I was too lazy to look up the numbers. I couldn’t agree with you more.

    I do disagree with you on the Kings series though. plus/minus in calls and ft’s say little to the officiating. If the Lakers did all the fouling and the Kings didn’t foul once in the series (extreme example) then the refs did an awful job that series. The only way to judge officiating is watching the games and seeing how many missed calls were made.

  31. The Dude Abides says

    28. Jay hit the nail on the head. The last 20 seconds of Game 5 of the 2002 WCF was an utter travesty. First, the out of bounds call that went in SAC’s favor when replays of every angle clearly showed a King touched the ball last. Next, one of the most blatantly illegal screens of all time by Webber on D-Fish, freeing up Bibby for the go-ahead jumper.

    Finally, for the encore, Bobby Jackson pulling Kobe’s jersey completely out of his shorts while Kobe was trying to elevate for the final jump shot. A good “no-call” by the refs.
    /snark

    Game 2 of that series was also a massive travesty. Remember, at that point, the Lakers had won six consecutive playoff games vs SAC, most of them being blowouts, with the 4th, 5th, and 6th games of that streak being blowouts on SAC’s home court. The Kings desperately needed referee resuscitation, and got it in Game 2 (and later on in Game 5).

    25. Franky, yes, this blog has discussed the one-sided joke that was Game 2 of the 2008 NBA Finals. At one point, halfway through the 3rd quarter, the FT discrepancy was 25 FTA for BOS vs 2 FTA for LA. If you go over the shot chart for that game, the Lakers took just as many shots from inside the paint than BOS did. Total joke.

    One more game that isn’t discussed much in national circles is Game 4 of last season’s NBA Finals. From the beginning of the 4th quarter until seven seconds remained in overtime (16 min, 53 sec total), ORL shot 18 FTs to the Lakers zero. The 2008 Lakers would not have been able to handle the horrendous officiating, and would have lost this game. The 2009 Lakers? Played through the calls, won Game 4 on two D-Fish daggers and clutch play from Pau, Trevor, and Kobe, then closed out the championship with a Game 5 blowout. This was a mentally tough team that was forged in the fires of 2008 NBA Finals Game 6.

    I fully expect that a 2010 Laker team at full strength will be back-to-back NBA champions.

  32. j.d. Hastings says

    18- wondahbap- I’ve often wondered the same thing myself. Morey has proven good at identifying role players, but I’m waiting to see him get over the hump and find a franchise player to commit too. It’s easier to find bargains in the bargain bin than in the full price rack.

    33- Aaron- On the Kings I agree with you but I don’t have the tapes or the shot charts to look at that. The discrepancies in how the games were called can itself be used to show the lack of consistency in how things were called, and that the Kings only won when the calls favored them, though.

  33. VoR says

    The Sasha issue is this – he needs to be playing with the starters (or a large contingent of them – especially Kobe). This frees him up for better / more open looks and it keeps him in check in terms of his role.

    I think last night this is what happened with Kobe at the three and Sasha at the two. he played a decent game.

    He can’t handle defending point guards and playing him with the taco unit types brings out the worst in him in terms of his decision making and in terms of his weaknesses getting exposed.

    So that is the dilemma. He can play a productive role for the team – it is just not a role that is much needed except when Kobe is playing the three.

    I think Phil sees this and with Ron out he can give Sasha some minutes – but those will be harder to find with Ron back.

    • Kurt says

      Wondahbap/JD, I think this is true across the board. The hardest part of assembling a championship team is to get the Kobe/LeBron/KG/Duncan/Shaq/Wade whoever that is the unstoppable cornerstone. A good GM can find the role players to fit a system, and should be able to get the other one or two “stars.” But you need to get dealt an ace.

      In that sense, I don’t blame Morey. He came in to a franchise that was paying Yao and McGrady to be the stars, and he built around them. Maybe you can argue he tries to get out of McGrady earlier (maybe he did try) but Yao is not the kind of talent you just trade. Now Morey is back with the problem a lot of teams have — they are in the middle of the pack, too good to get John Wall next draft but not good enough to be a threat for a title. And getting that needed ace is not going to be easy.

  34. Tsig says

    Fish played with D-will for two years, he’s got him scouted

    He’s strong enough to keep him away from his sweet spots, and he knows where those spots are. He just has to be lucky with keeping out of foul trouble.

  36. Craig W. says

    Can we p-l-e-a-s-e stop talking about Fish. there are no new facts, no new opinions, no new interpretations, no new insights.

    This should now fall in the open-ended trade discussions on this site.

  37. j.d. Hastings says

    Or Kobe shooting like 10 FTAs the entire Spurs series in 2008 (but everybody agreeing the series was fixed because of the no-call on Fisher)

    All of these conspiracy theories come down to selection biases.

  38. The Dude Abides says

    35. JD, the one “legitimate” victory for the Kings in that series was Game 3 at Staples. Pretty much a blowout, spurred by the confidence the Kings developed after they won Game 2 in a travesty. Their confidence seeped into Game 4, where they built a 24-point lead before the Lakers started their comeback, which culminated in Big Shot Rob’s game-winning three at the buzzer.

    Also, the one play in the 4th quarter of Game 6 that is the most frequently cited by SAC fans as officiating bias is the play where Kobe’s elbow nailed Bibby’s face as Kobe was trying to free himself on an inbounds pass. Bibby had Kobe in full grasp, then Kobe swung his right arm from right to left in an effort to free himself of the hold, and in doing so hit Bibby in the face with his elbow. Bibby flopped, bringing Kobe down on top of him (he was still holding Kobe). The ref had to call something, so he chose to call the first foul. If Bibby doesn’t flop, then it’s a no-call.

  39. Mike Penberthy says

    The reason that game 5 is not talked about is because the kings getting preferential treatment from the refs is not nearly as interesting of a story as the great satan – the lakers getting favourable calls.

  40. J says

    I’m with Craig W. on the Fish talk. We’re just going around in circles and nothing new is being presented or solutions for that matter. One of my favorite things to do at work is to point out when someone is just constantly complaining about a problem but never has a realistic solution. It’s a waste of everyone’s time.

    Regarding last year’s Game 4 officiating, one of my proudest Laker fan moments occured in the day after the game. I was killing time at a coffee shop before an appointment when at the next table an Orlando fan was preaching to 3 other fans about the injustice of the previous night’s officiating. He went on about the no call on the Kobe elbow before the pass to Fish’s three. The other 3 fans were all agreeing about how the officiating was so lopsided and Lakers got a gift win.

    I finished my coffee, sauntered towards the door past their table and stopped. The fan stopped pontificating and looked at me questioningly. I said in an awed voice, “wow Orlando really got shafted by the officiating last night huh?” He started grinning thinking I was another Magic fan. I then continued and said “Lakers 0 FT’s all of 4th quarter and almost entire OT, until the intentional foul in the last ten seconds. Orlando got 14 FT’s in the fourth” The guy’s jaw literally dropped open and he couldn’t get any sound out. The other 3 fans were also in shock and not moving. I walked away and got in my car and not a peep was heard.

    I’m proud about how I didn’t use anger, profanity or anything crude to shut them up. Just stated some indisputable facts to refute their previously unassailable belief that Orlando was screwed. It felt great to just walk away with that line and their reaction.

  41. T. Rogers says

    A couple of things:

    1) Let’s put away Houston’s injury card. They are clearly better WITHOUT McGrady and Yao. Yes, they are. They are not doing anything special anymore. I give them credit for being a scrappy team, though.

    2) I hear all the talk about Fish. Even still all I can only think about are those two huge shots he hit in the Finals. When the game is on the line (particularly a key playoff game) there is no backcourt in the league as feared as Kobe and Fish. Farmar wouldn’t have hit those shots. Shannon wouldn’t have them. And Sasha? Yeah, ok…

    3) I am actually looking forward to the ugly road trip later this month. It will help them focus and force them out of the lackadasical funk they have been in. Hopefully, Pau will be ready to go by then.

  42. Burgundy says

    Man, the officiating discussion is riling me up.

    What really annoys me is the national media’s insistence, as others have mentioned in this thread, of continuously pointing to Game 6 of the 2002 Conference Finals, and ignoring the complete screw-jobs LA got in Game 2 and Game 5…or the fact that Sacto ended the series with an absurd 25 more free throw attempts than LA…but hey, how about that 4th Quarter of Game 6!

    It’s lazy reporting, and it highlights the fact that the Lakers are treated like the Yankees of the NBA: everyone outside of LA actively HATES the Lakers.

    It’s not paranoia, it’s the truth.

    And yes, Game 2 of the 2008 Finals (and while we’re at it, the officiating in just about every game of the 2004 Finals) was a much bigger travesty than Game 6 of the 2002 WCF, but again, the media won’t mention it because that would be putting the Lakers in a sympathetic light, and we certainly can’t have that!

    Bill Simmons (of all people!) was the only who mentioned the absurd officiating in Game 4 of the Finals last year. Nobody else mentioned it.

  43. Zephid says

    Btw, seems that with Pau going out, Andrew Bynum finally learned to pass last game. When he was single covered by Drew Gooden or Dirk, Bynum ate them alive. When the Mavs brought help after they realized Bynum was chowing down on their bigs like me on a plate of filet mignons with Bernaise sauce, he kicked the ball out to shooters on the wings, where they actually came through for a change.

    Although, he was going against Drew Gooden and Dirk Nowitski… It’ll be interesting to see how he does when he goes against a legitimate post defender.

  44. Burgundy says

    RE: 44

    In other words, Gasol will be out for a month…

    (Sorry guys, Pau is a fantastic player, but he’s like Kwame Brown when it comes to injuries).

    “Oh, but it’s his hammy! You have to be careful with the hammy!”

    Please.

  45. jodial says

    Considering Sacramento missed 14 of 30 free throws in their own building in game 7 of the 2002 series (an OT loss), I’d say complaining about free throw discrepancies would be a rather shaky argument even if it were a valid one.

  46. Gr8 Scott says

    Aaron,

    Leave the Fisher situation alone. The dude has proven that he seems to have a knack for making big plays. This might be his last Laker hurrah, so let’s enjoy it and see if the other guards can step up. You mentioned some stats, but the 3pt % were identical and the TO% was only 2% – hardly enough to justify pulling Fish. And Phil, thankfully, doesn’t just use stats to get our team going. I’m with you Darius – Fish is the starter. And as another poster put it (and apologies that I’m continuing this) – let’s drop this debate. Get healthy, Pau and welcome back, Ron. Go Lakers!

  47. j.d. Hastings says

    41- Kurt, I’m still very impressed with what Morey has done, and my original post was more annoyance at the narrative that has Houston as a great victim relative to a host of teams with inury issues. Having said that, if the team is starting a 6’6 center it’s because Morey never picked up anymore size, other than the 60 year old Dikembe Mutombo. Their lack of size isn’t something they can blame completely on chance, whereas a team like Portland CAN bemoan fate on that front.

    Similarly, the TMac drama (and getting rid of Artest) seems to me almost as though they’d rather play the overperforming bunch of scrappy players than possibly winning a few extra games with the imperfect star (speculation because we have no idea how much either player would have helped their record this season, but neither do they).

    So I respect what Morey has built and he didn’t pick Tmac and Yao, but see a lot of their situation as self-imposed as much as it was thrust upon them. And I’m interested to see what he’s able to do once he has more $ to spend

    (like an indie band that builds its reputation by scrappy over-achievement finally going to a big label, with a budget to match- does the extra money add extra gains or just negate what was their great skill?)

  48. The Dude Abides says

    48. Zephid, in addition to Drew finding the open man for threes while he was being doubled, he also looked for cutters. He would have had a 5th assist if LO hadn’t missed an easy uncontested layup (should have dunked it) when he got a pass from Drew while cutting to the hoop. I think Drew is developing into a better than average passer from the post. I’d still like him to go after more offensive rebounds, though. Maybe he’s been told to be less aggressive on the offensive boards as a way to limit his fouls.

  49. MannyP13 says

    Two Questions:
    (1) Was Pau’s last straing “mild to moderate” or “moderate to serious”? Just trying to prep myself for the appropriate number of missed games.

    (2) Is Walton still on the roster? I thought he retired. j/k

  50. j.d. Hastings says

    50- The choke job by the Kings in game 7 (not just the missed FTs but several missed open shots by Christie and Peja) just shows that they were in on the fix! As were the Pope and Fidel Castro. This goes deeper than any of us have been ready to look.

  51. thisisweaksauce says

    I was looking back at the post right after Game 6 of the 2008 NBA Finals, called “There’s Got To Be A Morning After.” Kurt was reminding people not to go into rampant trade speculation, such as “let’s trade Odom for Artest.” It’s funny that we have both of them now (and there have still been some complaints and wild suggestions of who the Lakers should get to fix the slumping play – Nate Robinson, anyone?). Oh well, let’s enjoy this win over Dallas, hope that the play from the game becomes a trend, and hope that Pau isn’t out too long (unless you’re Andrew Bynum).

  52. Zephid says

    54, interesting, because the only reason he picks up so many fouls on offensive rebounds is because he’s lazy. Instead of going for position and getting around his defender, he too often tries to just outjump his man and subsequently gets an over-the-back call. It’s guys who get good position, like Varejao, who sneak under the basket and in front of their defenders that snag so many offensive rebounds. Although I would say that I would rather he didn’t go after an offensive rebound at all versus picking up stupid fouls.

  53. Craig W. says

    The Lakers and the Cowboys are the most like the Yankees in their respective sports. Them’s just the facts people. We will always draw extra hatred because of our situation and our style.

    Since I hate the Yankees and Cowboys, I see both sides of this argument, but it really doesn’t change my Laker feelings.

    By the same token it really pi**es a lot of fans off that the Lakers, Cowboys, and Yankees always seem to have more supporters in every stadium than any other team but the home team.

    Hey, the hate runs deep people.

  54. Mike Penberthy says

    As for Fisher being a liability, yes of course he is. But in an era of 30 NBA teams even a championship team will have at least one position where it’s weak. For this team it’s pg. Of course when there were only 20 teams in the league for much of the 80’s you could have loaded teams like the Lakers and Celtics. It’s impossible now.

  55. The Dude Abides says

    58. Maybe learning how to get good offensive rebounding position will be one of Drew’s next steps in his development. We’re still talking about a guy with very little high school/AAU experience compared to most good college and NBA players. I’d love to see Drew divide his off-season between workouts with his personal trainer and a visit to Newell’s Big Man Camp.

  56. Joel says

    If Houston really is better without T-Mac and/or Yao, that actually makes the job Morey has done even more amazing. They were there when he took over as GM, on max contracts, and he has still managed to add enough pieces to make the team competitive with both of them injured. Compare that to what happened in 2007 when T-Mac and Yao didn’t even miss half the season.

    Not that I’m buying the theory that losing Yao is somehow good for the Rockets until I see some actual proof on the court. I remember more than just the last 4 games of the Lakers-Rockets series (2 of which were blowout wins for the Lakers anyway), and the fact is that Yao led that team to 53 wins and the second round of the playoffs. The fact that the Lakers had nobody who could guard Aaron Brooks does not change that. (T-Mac, at least in his current state, is another story altogether.)

  57. dave says

    I know a lot of people are sick of talking about Fisher.

    But the problem is that as long as he is one of the worst statistical point guards in the NBA(and he is), then the issue is not going to go away. If anything, Fisher is getting worse. He has shot 26 percent the last 6 games, with 9 turnovers and only 9 assists.

    Also, there is an obvious solution. Start Farmar. In the past this might not have worked, but this year he has been much better.

    Maybe you can make a rule that Fisher can’t be mentioned unless the original post brings him up, as this one did.

  58. wondahbap says

    Joel,

    If Yao never got hurt. We win that series 4-1. He slowed them down. We trap the hell out of Yao, and they pass to him begrudgingly, then he gets tired in the 4th. Bynum and Pau run the floor on him and get easy buckets.

  59. Mike Penberthy says

    “I’d love to see Drew divide his off-season between workouts with his personal trainer and a visit to Newell’s Big Man Camp.”

    Is it still going on even without Newell?

  60. Joel says

    64

    The only time Houston looked even close to winning in LA was when Yao was on the court, so I’m not convinced about that. It certainly isn’t enough to erase what happened in the 88 games prior to that series. Yes, the smallball Rockets were a trickier matchup for the Lakers in particular, but are they a better team overall? Their defense is certainly a lot worse without Yao in the middle.

  61. Midnight says

    Regarding officiating, I agree with many of the comments noted above, namely that people tend to overlook bad officiating against the Lakers (2002 WCF, games 2 and 5; 2004 Finals; 2008 WCF, entire series, 2008 Finals, game 2) and fixate on bad officiating that favored the Lakers (2002 WCF, game 6). But I think it is important to avoid making a judgment about the quality of officiating simply by looking at total fouls and free throws. For example, some have noted that the Lakers got only two free throws in the 4th quarter and overtime of Game 4 of the 2009 Finals, while Orlando got a bunch (either 16 or 18, I think). After the discrepancy was first noted on this blog, I watched the game again, and I only saw one or two calls that I disagreed with.

  62. kehn says

    @ Mike (60) – and even then during the 80’s Laker fans like myself looked at PFs like Charles Barkley, Kevin McHale and Karl Malone and wished for one of them instead of Kurt Rambis/AC Green. 🙁 Silly in retrospect, but hey.

  63. j.d. Hastings says

    To tie together the different threads from the comments here:

    Rick Adelman (coach of the Rockets and the 2002 Kings) is probably the whiniest coach the league has ever seen (in terms of longevity and constant griping).

    And I wouldn’t start him over Fisher.

  64. j.d. Hastings says

    On a completely unrelated note, witnessing Gilbert Arenas’s twitter tourettes the last few days has been like watching a train wreck. Then still watching as the engineer backs the train up and re-wrecks it continuously.

  65. LT says

    I agree with Dave (63). Why are Laker fans on this blog trying to silence those who are simply pointing out a glaring weakness on this team, that might possibly be the biggest obstacle for a repeat? I see a mob mentality when it comes to Bynum’s deficiencies, but the biggest liability on this team (Fish) should be left alone? I don’t get it. There are plenty of possible solutions as Dave mentioned:

    1. Continue to start Fish, but rest him for the playoffs by limiting his minutes to about 15/game, and play him in crunch time. Let Fish play the Horry type role. I don’t think Phil has any choice but to start Fish because he needs good players around him to be effective. If Fish were playing on the second unit, it would be a gruesome sight.
    2. Start Farmar / Shannon / Sasha. At the very least, they have earned more playing time, and should be given some of Fish’s minutes.
    3. Trade for a PG.

    I also don’t buy into the argument that most teams have a liability in their starting unit. I can’t find one on the Clippers/Thunder/Mavs/Jazz/Rockets, let alone the only teams I really care about (Orlando, Boston, Cavs, Spurs and Denver).

  67. exhelodrvr says

    No one here has blinders on about Fisher. (Well, maybe Aaron, but from the other perspective.)
    Unfortunately, Farmar has not shown that he is ready to be the starter. Last night was the exception, by far, rather than the rule. If he would show some consistency and willingness to paly within the system and within his own limitations, he’d have been the starter last season.

  68. Snoopy2006 says

    71 – You can’t find a liability in the Clippers starting unit? The entire organization is a liability to humanity, from top to bottom.

  69. J says

    69 JD, you know I used to not respect Adelman a whole lot. While I do tend to agree that he can be whiny, I’ve come to respect his coaching abilities. Everywhere he’s gone, his teams have done well. He may not be an all time great like PJ, but i think he’s a damn good coach.

    Look at his Portland and Sac teams. Sure you can say they were stacked but he still took them pretty far. It was just his bad luck to run into PJ repeatedly. If it weren’t for PJ’s Bulls and Lakers teams, Adelman probably has at least one if not two rings.

    When he took over Hou, he retained the defensive mentality that JVG installed while making Hou a more potent offensive team. Before T-mac went down, he, Ron and Yao were playing solid offensive ball with the role players filling in properly.

    Before this season started, I flat out told my friends who were Hou fans that this was going to be a tough team. They were going to bring the defensive intensity regularly and Adelman would have a whole training camp to figure out a solid offense that didn’t include Yao. They weren’t going to be a contender but I didn’t think they were lottery bound either.

    • Kurt says

      LT, you don’t see a weakness in the starting lineups of the Clippers/Thunder/Mavs/Jazz/Rockets? Have you really watched them play? I can assure you the fans (and owners) of every one of those teams would trade starting lineups in a heartbeat. And, for the record, all those teams have a worse record than the Lakers. Same with all those teams you fear from the East.

      The Fisher debate has become as tedious as the Health Care debate and for much the same reason: Nobody listens or compromises. It is treated as a black and white issue, as opposed to shades of gray. It’s like listening to political talk radio.

  70. R says

    One possible way to discourage discussions about Fish is to not reply when posts knocking him come up. One possible way to encourage said discussions is to ask that people “knock it off” or similar.

    I’d like to start a similar contentious thread: Does anybody think PJ daydreams of a return to NYC and starting another three peat run, this time with LBJ?

  72. Aaron says

    Kurt,
    You see a glaring weakness in those starting lineups like the Lakers have at PG? really? Let me copy and paste from the brilliant J.D. on this one…

    I just went to 82Games.com to check out the specifics on our PG production. On average we are allowing opposing PGs a PER of 17.3. According to espn:

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?qual=true&sort=per&league=nba&page=2&seasonType=2&qualCnt=60&qualIndex=61

    That means we face a Tony Parker/ Jamal Crawford/ Monta Ellis level player every night. Of course, Ty Lawson, Allen Iverson and Nate Robinson all have PERs higher than those 3, so take from this as you will. Considering that we actually face these players on most nights, it could be worse.

    On the other hand, our production at PG is only 11.2 on average, which is slightly worse than Earl Watson. Ouch.

    However, it should be noted that Fisher’s 9.15 PER IS better than Rafer Alston, Chucky Atkins or Kevin Ollie (he’s still in the league??), so we do have that going for us.

    I’d say the difference between our PG spot and the other weak positions noted by Darius is that the Lakers suffer on both ends of the court, leading to a -6 PER at the position. Denver’s SG’s, even without JR, do defend well, and opposing SGs average under a PER of 15. San Antonio is the closest to our gap, where their PF position is a -4 (Duncan is considered a C). Compare this to the Celtics, who are at least +2 at every position.

    I do agree that this isn’t panic-inducing, but it is easily the most glaring weakness among contenders on both ends of the floor.

  73. Aaron says

    …thanks J.D. for letting me steal from you. I would also like to respond to those who say that Farmar and Brown haven’t proven they can start at PG and be better then Fisher. Logic says that there stats better than Fisher at the moment would be even better playing with the first unit. You have seen recently how they have played in tight 4th quarter games with Fisher on the bench. It also is a catch 22. If Brown, Farmar, or Sasha are not allowed to start we will never see if they can perform better than Fisher.

    Overall it is foolish to not speak about the Lakers biggest weakness on this blog. If we decide to not discuss the biggest problems like Health Care, Fisher, or Slavery they will never be solved. I have already seen improvement on this very blog. Late last season when I first brought up Fisher’s uselessness 19 out of 20 commentors not so kindly disagreed with me. Today only 3 out of 10 disagree with me. So we are making progress.

  74. harold says

    Geez, unless you field an all-star team, and even then, you’re not going to have your starting lineup be superior, or even equivalent to EVERY darn team we face.

    The price we paid for having 4 out of the 5 spots be superior to most and at least equivalent to the rest is that we’re giving the opposition an advantage at the one.

    Now how much that advantage ends up being is a matter of team execution on both offense and defense, not a matter of Fisher (or Farmar or Brown).

    We have 4 mismatches we can exploit, and only have to cover one. If you can’t live with it, you should be rooting once in every 4 years for the US National team, not the Lakers.

  75. j. d. hastings says

    A- What I wrote wasn’t about Fisher. I did not look at starting lineups, I looked at total production by position. Those PER diferential numbers are for ALL our PGs, none of whom’s own production is close to 15 (average).

    B- I only looked at other “contenders” with that, meaning BOS, CLE, ORL, PHX, DAL, SAS and DEN. The Rockets, Thunder and Clippers all have 3 positions where they have a negative PER differential (the jazz have 2 positions). While none of them have a single position as off as the Laker PG squad, LA dominates every other position so well it doesn’t matter (evidence: compare the records). Interesting comparison- Phoenix has a negative PER at every position but PG.

    C- PER differential is useful for this task, but I’d LOVE to see the numbers for the three-peat teams’ PF spot. Championship teams can deal. So its a concern, not a deal breaker. Fisher has the worst PER of the Laker PGs, but the best +/- (least worst? how can everybody who plays the PG position on our succesful team have a negative +/-??)

    D- For laughs, The worst team position PER diferentials in the NBA:
    1- Pacers SG: -7.0
    2- New Jersey PF: -6.6
    2- Utah SG: -6.6
    4-MIN SG: -6.5
    5- Lakers PG: -6.2
    6- Sacramento PF: -6.0

    E- I trust PJ’s decisions on who plays when. In general I believe the Lakers need to improve at PG, but the most likely place for that improvement to occur is internally.

  76. j. d. hastings says

    Okay, now looking at it, Fisher has a net positive +/- and is the only laker PG to do so (though we all know the problems with making statements of relative value based on that. I’m just correcting something I said a minute ago)

  78. Aaron says

    J.D.
    The reason Fisher is the Lakers only PG to have a positive plus/minus is because he only is allowed to play with the starters.

  79. ken says

    No pt you are not the only one who fears Fish in any finals. He is 30th of 30 teams in 3 catogories and 29th in another in pg in the NBA. Never in my research has a starter of a champ team been last in fg%, assists, point per game and point aganist. Never I repeat. Do you think other coaches can read stats? If he cares about this team he would do a Walton of last year. Sit me coach!

  81. Joel says

    I consider myself a harsh critic of Fisher, but I do love Fisher as well. Starting last season fisher developed an alter ego named Allen Iverson. Fishers best and important asset is his leadership, and I think he hasn’t shown much of it this season. When the lakers are struggling, sometimes fisher has a mind set of I’ll shoot the lakers out of it. fisher has taken way too many contested and ill advised shots. Fisher should almost never take a bad shot. His shots should basically be all wide open shots as a result of the triangle offense and ball movement. The Lakers have 5 guys that all need shots, fisher isn’t one
    of them. Fisher has to be they guy to run the offense when the lakers are getting sloppy, slow the game and get the team to execute, now launch up contest 20+ ft shots or drive into two or three guys and miss a lay up. That’s all I want to see from fisher is get back showing his leadership. Making the right plays and the right time. That’s all. When he does that the lakers are so much better.

    I also believe Phil has to limit his minutes to under 25 minutes and not be afraid to leave in farmar when farmar is playing well. Fisher is 35 years old and he just can’t play 35+ minutes a night and expect to play for a couple of more years.

  83. ken says

    If it matters Aaron I am a 40 year fan and season ticket holder with a entire section saying the same about Fish. Start farmer, start brown, start sasha, start shaw, start my mother! Stop with this “remember that shot” story! Perhaps Lakers don’t need the 3-times a year big shot if your pg is not giving up 10 more point then he scores!

  84. Great Wall says

    Ok. Ia am going to chime in on the Discussion that the Rockets are better without Yao Ming. It is probably easy for you Laker fans who see the Rockets sparingly to say they are better without Yao. As a Rocket fans who watches 82 games a year, I can assure you that they are not better without him (McGrady yes). We have absolutely no consistent scorer, someone who we can count on in crunchtime. I don’t believe that us Rocket fans have had some big pity-party about our injuries, but it would be like you losing Kobe. I am not for a moment saying that Yao is in the stratosphere of Kobe, but he is our go-to guy and emotional leader. He is the best player on the team, and also the hardest worker.

  85. 81 Witness says

    All this talk about Fisher, damn. The PER numbers can be very misleading.

    PER is heavily favored by offensive statistics. Fisher is the #5 option on offense and his weakness is finishing at the rim. 3 other players handle the ball well at the same time. Fisher’s PER will be low. The Lakers play better as a team when Fisher’s FGA is lower because he is taking shots away from where the Lakers have a clear advantage.

    The PG is a role player in the triangle system, not a number one option, not a generator of offense. There are usually multiple passes and the ball may stay in the post where we have mismatches with our big men.

    Someone please tell the fire department that Rome is not burning, false alarm.

  86. BOOBOO says

    #6, While I agree with you, most of Fisher’s intangibles are directly in result of his experience and age. True, leadership is sometimes an innate quality, but by all accounts, Farmar was a vocal and mature leader when he played at Taft and UCLA. In the Lakers locker room, Farmar would never even have the chance to be the leader Fisher is, simply due to the fact that his experience and age are incomparable to Fisher’s.

    Also, I’ve always wondered this: If Fisher was a better overall basketball player, would the Lakers even have been in situations in which we needed his clutchness?

    Anyways, I was just pointing out that I could not think of a worse starting PG. I’ve always liked Fish, it actually upset me more that he left the Lakers (because of GP) than Ronny leaving because the Lakers signed Vujacic. Besides, Fisher does what the Lakers need him to do (sometimes), which is why I said I’m glad he fits in the system because, honestly, even if Fisher had a job on another team, he would either be the experienced, older player that doesn’t get much playing time, or getting blown by by 75% of the league’s starting PGs.

    • Kurt says

      When Joel says he has not seen Fisher’s leadership, I will simply say that when you are in the locker room that is not the feeling at all. He is a leader, he is a voice of reason, he is the one guy who can get through to Kobe when others cannot. But I think that is what I was saying about this debate, and same with others, who come in with a radio talk perspective of “pick an opinion and never give an inch.” There is no middle ground, as if the Farmar supporters think he is CP3. There is nobody who watches Lakers games who think Fisher is fantastic right now. But to suggest you know more than Phil Jackson and his choice as to what is best for this team is a fools errand to me. This whole conversation is frustrating to me because, like trade talk, I am learning nothing from it. It’s just people trying to convince others they are wrong.

      I am amazed we are the fans of the best team in the league, because frankly I’m not sure we deserve to be. The team just played the best game of the year and they get ripped in the comments. It seems to miss the entire perspective of rooting for the team, of enjoying the journey, of being a fan to me. If Karma takes hold we’ll be rooting for the Knicks in a few years.

  87. chris h says

    personally for me, (a long time member of this site), I find it tedious at best to keep seeing the same note from the same poster about the same player, it’s old news for me, and I don’t equate it with slavery. it’s basketball. I have faith in the pros of the game, our coach and GM/owners have experience, and this is their full time job, so they “live” this, whereas we are just fans, maybe very passionate fans, (I don’t miss a game if I can catch it, sometimes travel makes it hard) but what’s most annoying is when these bashers claim to “know” what PJ or a teammate is thinking. come on, get over yourself. we are fans, we enjoy the game and our team, but, we are not pros.

  88. Great Wall says

    I apologize for the typos in my previous post, but as a TCU graduate I have had a rough 24 hours.

  89. live rugby says

    Fisher might have his struggles at times during the regular season but he steps up and knocks down some of the biggest shots when it really counts in the playoffs.

  90. Snoopy2006 says

    I second someone’s earlier motion. Let’s add Fisher talk, temporarily, to the banned list of things like “trade talk.” It just doesn’t add anything to the discussion, it’s mind-numbing to read. It’s the same bleating on both sides, over and over again.

  91. Darius says

    I promised myself that I wouldn’t comment anymore about Fish (at least on this thread)…so much for that.

    I do want to say that I too have thought what someone else mentioned – how will we ever know what another player is capable of doing unless he gets a shot? And then I revert back to what Kurt has said several times in the past – if Farmar or Brown want to overtake Fisher, one of them must make it crystal clear that they’re the better player and do it in all facets. They have to prove it. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. And when I watch the games, I don’t see it. Not yet at least. Others may, and that is fine. But I don’t. And while I never claim to know what the coaches think or say, based off the fact that #2 is still starting at PG for the Lakers, I don’t think the staff sees it either. Maybe in stats, but not in all facets.

    One last thing (and then a link), BOOBOO (#93) mentioned that Fisher’s leadership and intangibles are mostly due to his age and tenure in the league. But I disagree with that. There’s a great story that I wish I could find a link to where the Lakers are in the locker room during a playoff series. It’s Derek Fisher’s rookie season. The Lakers are in the process of losing the series to the Jazz and Fisher is the player that stands up and tries to inspire his team through a motivational talk. Now, the Lakers go on to lose that series (remember a skinny Kobe airballing fall aways?), but that story always stuck with me. Fisher, a rookie and on a team with Shaq and Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel is the guy that is trying to lead the team. And you wonder why Kobe, a rookie on that same team, loves Fish. Why he trusts Fish. Those two are guys that have been through so many wars and they’re guys that want it the same way. Two guys that are cut from the same cloth. Anyways. I’ve said enough on this already.

    Here’s what some of Fish’s teammates and coaches have to say about him. This is pretty recent stuff too.

    http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/woelfel/category/derek-fisher/

  92. sT says

    Wow, 100 comments in a MASH Unit post today, what a great read this is tonight. This is what make’s this FB&G blog great, lot’s of stats, PER’s, references, intelligent conversations, and some cool Sasha videos, etc.

    Let’s start a 6’7″ PG that used to hit dagger 3’s regularly in games. Give him 40 minutes a game and see what he does. Add a little oil and start “The Machine”, start “The Machine”…

    Enjoy the moment for what it is… “Life is fast and things happen quickly.” – Derek Fisher

    • Kurt says

      New post up, the video of Morrison stealing the high five.

      sT, are you sure that’s a Fisher quote and not from Ferris Bueler’s Day Off?

  93. ray says

    For everyone commenting that Fisher should not start, and Farmar or someone else starts, I want to reiterate what Kurt said. We do not know more than Phil Jackson. We do not know more than the staff that sees the players in practice and in games.

    IF you guys are all about numbers, then let this one help the debate: PHIL JACKSON 10 rings. He gets those because he makes the right choices.

  94. nimble says

    nice link Darius,

    I am 100% with you on Derek.But please tell him no more PUJIT hail marys 🙂

  95. DieTryin' says

    Nice preview post up on SS&R for both the upcoming Rockets & Clippers games.

    Here it is:

    http://tiny.cc/f8H8u

    A slow newsday so far so thought this might satisfy your hunger until Kurt gets his preview up.

    I don’t expect Pau to be back for 4 weeks. if so this will be a pretty stern (pun unintentional) test, given the Lakers schedule.

  96. JOE says

    Phil is not going to bench Fisher and thats the bottom line—unless Fish volunteers for it (just like Luke did for Ariza last year). I do believe we will have a new starting PG next season though–but not this season. Fish would make an excellent back up PG. He still got 2-3 seasons left in him as a back up.
    Brown looked very good the other night–as did Farmar. I still believe that if Brown were given more time that he would be the perfect fit for the triangle.

    Off the topic–did anyone see the NBA power rankings on ESPN and that Marc Stein ranked Cleveland #1 after losing at home to the Bobcats or something like that. The Lakers have 3 less losses and Boston has 1 less loss but yet this tool ranks Cleveland above them. I mean what has Cleveland and Lebron accomplished? I think Lebron is great and all but Cleveland is not that good enough to be ranked #1 overall–I don’t care who they beat. The more articles I read the more and more I see these writers being partial to almost an anti-Laker movement here-lol. What happened to the days when you wrote without being partial?

  97. Yusuf says

    We’re almost at the halfway point of the season and we havent had a chance to play with our full roster for a full month yet.

    Walton, Pau, Bynum and Artest have all missed time.

    Cant wait to see what our bench looks like when we have Walton back.

  98. Yusuf says

    Kobe’s ranked 3rd in Kelly Dwyers MVP list right now… What more does he have to do? Teams ranked first in the league and he leads the league in scoring… All while dealin with Pau & Ron missing time and with no bench production to speak of.

    Lebron has 3/5ths of the starting lineup that won 66 games last year on his BENCH this year. Ilgauskas/Varejao and Delonte all coming off the pine.

    Duncan still has Parker/Ginobili/Jefferson mixed with a bunch of good role players.

    Now im not sayin Kobe’s supporting cast isnt better but he deserves better than third.

  99. Aaron says

    Ray (102),
    So I didn’t know more than Phil when I wanted Ariza to start over Vlad and Walton? Just because Phil is the best coach in the history of the NBA doesn’t mean he can never be wrong. And if Fisher is still starting after the all star break (which I don’t think he will be) than I think Phil will be wrong.

    Joe (105),
    Do you really think Walton volunteered to be benched? I doubt it. What is more likely is Phil didn’t want to make waves in the locker room by benching a veteran for a young player like Ariza. When Phil decides to bench Fisher in favor of another young Laker I would assume Phil would use that same line again.

    Darius,
    Derek led from the bench that season… and he can do the same thing from the bench this season. The last place he can help the team is on the floor.

  100. Aaron says

    …and Kurt,
    Nobody thinks Farmar or Brown or Sasha are good NBA PG’s. But all three are better than Fisher. Just like when we had to start Walton years back… he was the worst SF in the league but he was better than who we had on the bench. Whoever the Lakers start at PG will be the worst starting PG in the NBA most likely, but they are better than Fisher.

    And just because people complain that as of today we are not starting our best PG doesn’t mean they are not happy with the team. Nobody is saying the Lakers are not the best team in the NBA.

  101. JOE says

    Ray everyone that followed the Lakers knew that Vlad was useless to the Lakers and Ariza/Walton were much better options. Maybe Phil did not want to make waves, but I don’t think Phil cares too much about waves–so I will take Walton’s word when he says he volunteered himself to the bench.
    Fisher isn’t Walton or Ariza—he has done some major things for the Laker organization and Kobe loves him. Phil will not bench him in the middle of a season–its just not gonna happen.

    I really love the potential that Brown brings to the game. Phil can do what he did the last couple of games and reduce Fishers minutes and give more to Brown, Farmar, and the fouling machine.

  103. Aaron says

    Exactly… just like everyone knows now that Brown/Sasha/Farmar are better options at PG than Fisher.

  105. ray says

    My point is, Aaron, is that there are reasons why Phil plays who he plays, and they are reasons we don’t know because we aren’t in the locker room or at the practice. And I don’t buy the whole he wont sit veterans for young guys because he chose to bench LO over Bynum last year, and that worked out pretty well. There are probably other reasons. You may think he is wrong, but maybe he has a better feel about how his team plays and where a person should play.

    And seeing as how he has a pretty good success rate (including this year btw), maybe he knows what he is doing? Maybe Fisher doesn’t have the legs to sit for 8 minutes after warm ups to be effective? Maybe Farmar and Brown are better as catalysts off the bench? Non laker fans are always amazed that Luke walton gets playing time when they think he sucks, but maybe phil jackson plays him cuz he knows the system?

    Like Kurt says, no one will change your mind about Fisher. And I didn’t want to get in the whole argument about why they should or shouldn’t. My argument was that I think Phil knows what he is doing, knows the team better than any fan knows, and it’s Phil Jackson. If it were mike dunleavy making this choice, then for sure, question the guy. But dude, the results with Fisher starting is pretty good no?