In the lead up to free agency, one of the main concepts I heard about most from fans was the timeline of the Lakers’ young core. As the argument goes, the best way for the Lakers to continue to build the team is to seek out players of similar ages to their already existing young core.
LA needs a center, try to get 27 year old Hassan Whiteside or 23 year old Bismack Biyombo. Need a small forward? Look at 24 year old Allen Crabbe, 24 year old Harrison Barnes, 23 year old Maurice Harkless, or even 27 year old Kent Bazemore. These players, the argument goes, could grow with the Lakers’ young core so that when Russell, Randle, Clarkson, and Ingram are more mature and ready to win, the Lakers could potentially have an entire rotation of players in various stages of their respective primes.
All of this sounds great and makes total sense. In some cases, I have even argued for it myself.
In the wake of the Lakers signing soon to be 30 year old Timofey Mozgov and 31 year old Luol Deng — besides the case against paying them what the Lakers are (this applies more to Mozgov) for the number of years they are — the most frequent criticism I have heard about the signings is that neither player is on the young core’s timeline. When the Lakers’ young core is ready to win, these critics say, Mozgov and Deng will be too old or no longer very good.
While there’s a certain logic to this, my counter to this argument is…why should we really care about that?
The way the Lakers are really going to get back to being a contending team is if their young players take the next step and turn into stars. That’s the path. It’s been proven time and time again that a major key to becoming a contending team in the NBA is by drafting a transformational player. Russell and Ingram are #2 overall picks. Randle was picked 7th. These three — or four, if you include Clarkson — represent the Lakers best chance at this and are the key to this team’s future.
But that future is not now. I have my concerns with the Mozgov and Deng contracts. I have spelled those out as best I can in this space already. But when looking at what really matters, how these players line up with the Lakers’ young core’s timeline really isn’t the thing I am looking at. If anything the work they do with the young players in practice, on the bench, in the film room, and in game situations over the next three years to help them become the players the Lakers need them to be matters more than being on the same timeline as them.
Look at it this way: After next season (his 3rd year), Randle will be eligible for a rookie contract extension. If he does not get one, he will then play his 4th season and enter the summer of 2018 as a restricted free agent should the Lakers extend him a qualifying offer. Play the same scenario out for Russell and he’s a RFA in the summer of 2019. Do so for Ingram and it’s the summer of 2020.
That’s 4 years from now. It’s also the year both Deng and Mozgov, should they still be with the Lakers, will come of the books. And then, they’ll be gone.
In between now and then they are very likely to help this young core in any number of ways on and off the court by being good teammates in every manner they have both been up to this point in their careers. They are very likely to help the Lakers win some games between now and then too. These guys can actually still play some pretty good basketball, you know.
From where I sit, the growth needed from the young players in the next four years matters more than anything else to future success. Achieving that growth is a process that can be accomplished any number of ways. The Lakers chose the route of signing high character, good basketball playing older veterans who can serve as both on court helpers and off court mentors.
Yes, they paid a lot of money for them. And yes, they will do so for 4 years.
But, in next 2-4 years, we’ll see what strides these young guys make. If they turn out to be as good as the Lakers hope they are, there will be plenty of more chances to sign guys who are on their timeline. And, I can almost guarantee you, if these guys are that good, there won’t be many free agents who decline meetings or suddenly need an extra year/more money in their contract to play with them.
And if things really do go that way, we might actually end up appreciating Deng and Mozgov for all they did to help make it all happen rather than lamenting how old they were when the process all started.
Msway says
Well said Darius, Do you agree that we should use our remaining space to add more veteran depth to increase our chances in the win column, or do you think the remaining spots should be filled with prospects at the minimum , have you heard any new laker thinking.
manosg says
Adding veteran depth is one thing, paying so much for it is another. Deng is a good acquisition because of all the intangibles he brings and he won’t stunt the development of Ingram and Randle as there are plenty of minutes among them. On a 3-year deal, he would have been an even better signing.
However, not being able (or willing) to bring Biyombo when the Lakers are in dire need of a high quality rim protector is a mistake. Biyombo is a much better choice defensively than Mozgov and the Russian’s veteran presence or intangibles aren’t anything to write home about. The combination of Randle and Mozgov is going to be a problem all year long.
lakersloading says
manosg I doubt either player leaves a contender to come to LA for a lower price. To get them in the Lakers current situation, you have to offer more. Regarding Biyombo: we don’t know if he was interested, maybe they did chase, got nowhere and moved on. A big step from last year, where the Lakers sat on their hands and waited for Aldridge while other pieces signed.
Trust the Process. Lakers didn’t go full Hinkie, but have a plan of their own
markangeloguerra says
manosg what could be the difference with having bismak rather than moz beside randle? they are both just defensive presence..and mozgov have more experience than biyombo FYI..
lalaker14 says
It’s a step in the right direction (albeit a small one); it is progress. Obviously the young core is the most important thing. It’s going to take time. Deng & Mozgov will provide vet leadership in the short term.
Clay Bertrand says
Hell Yes Darius! I agree with every sentence. I can’t wait to watch games with hope again!!
I’m hoping we get the Ingram and Zubac signed before Summer League on Friday.
fidelvti says
Some comments about Moz and Deng hirings:
-They both are not just veteran players. They are nice guys who can bring (specifically Deng) some kind of leadership to the locker room, and work ethics.
-Technically, Moz is a rim protector, a consolidated player, and a good mentor for Zubac. We also have Black, but I’m afraid Tarik is a bit undersized for the C spot, and I don’t see him going PF. My issue with Moz is that he has restricted range (it’s a paint-only guy, very static), but we have other guys for that (and we need them, because that’s the way basketball is being played nowadays).
-Again from a technical point of view, Deng can be a nice mentor for Ingram. All around player if healthy. Excellent work ethics. If he can help Ingram to become an all around player as well, I’m happy with him.
-From an economical point of view, I’m worried. Committing all this money/time for two veteran, second-tier players, it’s not the best thing you can do. I’m doing the math and we still have room for a big contract if we get rid of some assets (Lou, Nick…). The only good news is that now we have more assets for trading. Even if we are patient enough, Deng and Moz can join the trading block before the season begins (not sure about that).
Plan A: If Lakers goal is to be patient and build from scratch, I’m fine. Not sure why we need to commit all that much money/time to bring guys like Moz and Deng. That’s something to think about. The inability of Mr.Buss to manage this team correctly will cost millions and will bring nothing but disappointment to the fan base.
Plan B: put Nick, Lou, Deng, Moz, Marcelo and Black in the trading block (I know that’s too much!). There are still some very good players under uncomfortable situations in the league we can go after. I’m thinking about Butler: an all-star in a team in reconstruction mood. We need this kind of guy in this team to attract top talent and be back on contention quickly. This is LA Lakers, we cannot wait for years to patiently develop our young core. I would add one of our young guys even, cause I’m afraid it would be necessary.
netgarden says
I think you have to look at this from three perspectives. One is what does success look like in s rebuild?
Well, right now, the Boston Celtics rebuild is held up as a bellwether. Great young coach. Year 1 of the rebuild: 25 wins. Year 2: 40 wins. Year 3: 45 wins.
We feel like we have the coach in Walton. If you accept the idea that this is truly Year 1, then anything better than 25 wins, so long as we feel like we’ve righted the ship, is good enough by me.
Two, the market for starter caliber players from good teams is 4 years and a lot of money. It would have been foolish for the Lakers to sit on their hands in free agency, if for no other reason to say, “We are focused on rebuilding and creating a winning culture. No star caliber players are going to losing teams, unless they are re upping.
Three, you can always trade up when you are in a better place. That has shown itself repeatedly.
I take the long view and I like this core.
manosg says
lakersloading Indeed, we don’t know if there was interest from the Lakers or Biyombo’s side. However, if there was interest from the Lakers’ side and Biyombo decided to join the Magic for playing Vucevic’s sub, that’s very worrisome regarding Laker’s power in the market.
I agree that this year the FO is more active in the market but the previous years’ experience has made me very skeptical. Anyway, Trust the Process and hope everything goes well.
manosg says
markangeloguerra To me, Biyombo is a better rim protector, has more upside and his quicker lateral movement can be translated as better pick n roll defense and better execution in the fast break when Randle gets the rebound and sprints in the offense.
GeraldReyes says
It seem the Lakers FO goes ALL IN to our young Players. Developing them in the next 2-4 years by the help of the newly acquired veterans is the best way to go. This is the beginning of winning 20+ games for experience and adjustments to our rookies and sophomores. No more Top 3 picks but our multiple youngs are enough. Developing them is the priority now. 20~30 wins should be attainable. Making the Playoff(west) should be a big Miracle.
KeithAllard says
manosg markangeloguerra dude go watch moz more he not a slow guy he moves well and can run he not a hibbert dude
KeithAllard says
manosg markangeloguerra and id rather have him where u get better offense then just a defender and moz is way better in pick and roll which russel excels in moz fits system better period
KeithAllard says
manosg markangeloguerra u guys act like moz is a bum he not I love the kid cle gave up 2 first round pics for him and u think he a scrub cuz he had 1 bad yr yr before major reason cle got to finals biyombo is trash one way dudes aren’t my type
blkmacster says
RE”If anything the work they do with the young players in practice, on the bench, in the film room, and in game situations over the next three years to help them become the players the Lakers need them to be matters more than being on the same timeline as them.”
Simply a brilliant analysis and understanding of the current state of the team and a correct analysis (at least it agrees with mine) future prognosis of it. A bit off topic here as follows: People who have vision, understand and can grasp the current state of affairs and understand the future ramifications of those affairs and properly plan for them are often viewed as idiots, by those who don’t have the same gifts. Back on topic, I’m feeling this akin to saving for your retirement. It doesn’t pay off so much now as it will in the the future.
Great article as always.
M~
wwlofficial says
There are a few variations of Laker fans:
1. Unpleasable – these are the guys, who, no matter what management does, has something to say. They are never happy, and will always find fault from the minutest details. Eg. complaining even in wins, saying that winning is not good bc it will worsen our pick.
2. Fair-weather – nice and happy during wins, sulky and unbearable during losses. No view of positives during losses, can’t find fault during wins.
3. Sensible – Can understand an argument both ways, despite how extreme.
smokedaddy says
Great minds think alike Darius. I’d include Nance with the
other 4 kids as being part of the young core. Randle, Clarkson, Russell, Nance,
Ingram. All, including DLO appear to
have good character, are hard workers, and like each other. Now its no secret
that what this team needs is better defense and better shooting to go with a
productive, effective offensive system that caters to the talents and skills of
the players. Fortunately, the two skills that can be improved with hard work,
good effort and good coaching are in fact defense and shooting. But when I see
commenters talk about bringing in a stretch 4 or 5 or a 3 and D player as the
solution to our problems, I see this as a fantasy. Playing good basketball also
means being athletic, running the floor, getting to the rim, finishing, and
being a good and willing passer are qualities that need to be there to go with
the 3 and D. Skills our 5 guys already have and will have for the next ten
years. From all reports, our guys appear to be working hard to develop their
shooting at least. On defense, Randle and Russell will not become great
defenders. Randle doesn’t have the arms and Russell lacks great athleticism.
But they can both get a lot better and become decent to good defenders. Nance
and Ingram are already good defenders who could become great. Clarkson is the
wildcard, at least on D. Truthfully at 23, he should be a hell of lot better
than he’s been, good coaching or not. If he puts out the time and effort on the
defensive end like he has with his shot and other parts of his game and body,
then he should be a very good defender and an A level player. If not, then we still have a hole to
fill.
I also really like Mozgov and Deng. High character,
multi-skilled players who’ve got skills and qualities we need on both ends of the court. Mozgov is not a high
flyer but he’s not a plodder or slow footed either though his P&R D is a
problem. What I wonder about that no one has really is whether there’s a real
chance of him not passing his physical with the knees and whether management would listen to
the doctors if he doesn’t. If he passes a real physical and his knees are
structurally sound then I’m good with the signing. 33 is not that old for a
center in good shape who doesn’t rely on their hops. Deng, who I love, would be
more of a concern to me at his position and being a year older with heavy
usage. Still, if he’s playing 15 minutes a night in 2 years while Randle/Nance
and especially are earning 30 min/gm then I’ll be happy. Same with Mozgov and
Zubac who could join the core as well.
wwlofficial says
The Lakers deciding to be “decisive” on Moz and Deng is very important. The Lakers are judged unfairly right now because media wants the team to transform into a contender overnight, and that is impossible to happen even if KD joined the Lakers. I know no team would actually refuse KD realistically, you do everything you must… but that isn’t really the best course of action.
Examine the signings so far, and try to be sensible. Mozgov and Deng being 33/34 when the kids evolve is not really relevant because by the time our kids are stars, they won’t need Moz and Deng. In the meantime, when they learn how to act, speak and play professional, these veterans are here to guide them through the growing pains. Just look at how Nick Young mentored the guys last season.
Signing guys that are 26 or under is cool-sounding, but it doesn’t add value to the team. We already have 2 high end talents in Russell and Ingram, whom we want to be the next superstar PG and SF, we have Clarkson and Randle and Nance who are middle-tier talents or classified as good rotational players. Now, if you add someone who’s got something to prove, the dynamic wouldn’t fit. Their egos won’t fit because no one would give way to the other. It would be detrimental for Russell to allow someone else other than Ingram and himself to star this team.
As mentioned on twitter ad nauseum, the addition of “veterans who can bring us to the playoffs but not stunt the youth’s growth and development” should be the way to go. Deng and Moz are perfect fits so far.
wwlofficial says
I would like to advocate the re-signing of our own Brandon Bass. Something like 33M for 3 seasons with the 3rd year being a team option. We need more high-character locker room guys who can help the youngsters grow to be professionals…
FredP says
Good job of looking behind the curtain to see what might be going on. Mozgov and Deng are not the sexy choices for free agents but they are good options for what the Lakers need. In contrast, Biyombo is terrific on the defensive end of the court and equally bad on the offensive end. His handle is non-existent and he has issues just catching the ball. Teams can ignore him on offense except for the occasional lob. Having Biyombo would mean shutting off the lane for the rest of the Lakers since the double teams would be automatic. Yes, he is young and can develop but he would be holding back the rest of the team.
All in all, the FO seems to be planning for the long term development of the team. This is a huge change in direction from the last few years and gives hope for the future.
Darius Soriano says
smokedaddy I was mostly referring to a player potentially becoming a “star”. I like Nance, but I don’t see that potential in his future at this point.
Msway says
Very good point FredP, One of the reasons the FO wanted mozgov so badly was the way he has been coached in the p/r offense,check the videos out there. When he rolls to the basket there is absoluty no doubt , 275lbs of 7-1 going to the rim like a fullback on goal offense.1st russel will get a giant pick,2nd he will have zero problem seeing the roller,3rd the high dish is unstoppable because it will be higher than the rim,and 4th and most importanly it will make the d collapse and we will finally get uncontested open jumpers, all assists by the way to stack deangelos stat sheet. also he himself will like getting to the rim also. buyombo didn’t bring this to our table so our FO passed on him and went with the superior talent.
JeffFulton says
wwlofficial Bass was excellent when given a chance to play. He’d be great next year as team-mate (locker room, practice) and on the court.
JeffFulton says
smokedaddy Yes. We need to make our own KD and other stars, not buy them.
Msway says
I’d like to add to the Brandon Bass fans out there, this guy is a full on stud. He brings it on D,Flat out Bad Ass,Great in the locker room,Great off the Bench,Great mentor for terrick blacks development and he wants to stay here.Hope we gotta affordable roster spot for him.
mattal says
Lot’s of rationalizing to the extreme here. My perception was that the Lakers needed to add veteran talent this summer and suddenly the optics have shifted to the Lakers needing to add the equivalent of aging ‘inning eating’ 5th starters.
There is a strong certainty that Mosgov’s and Deng’s ability to contribute will diminish every year over the life of their contracts. Their on court productivity in year one will likely be the high water mark of their Lakers careers. The FO spent dearly on depreciating assets.
They are not solutions, they are placeholders who will be overpaid as early as the second year of their deals. For some to say that Mosgov/Deng are instantly trade assets as a way of defending their deals is telling.
Again, in my mind the objective should have been targeting young talented vets who would be appreciating assets because their on court production would be improving. If the FO pursued those opportunities and were rebuked then patience was the better course versus what we have to show now.
Look at Mosgov’s stats — he’s just a guy. Hibbert on a one year deal would have been better. Deng’s production has been falling every year for the past three years. Deng is more of a Four now. Resigning Bass for two or three years would have been a better course.
rafisher1 says
Msway There are arguments for bring both Black and Huertas back. That leaves two roster slots open if you go all the way to 15. I feel an “older” backup point guard who still has something left in the tank and is a great locker room presence, and Brandon Bass would be good additions. With Huertas and Black QOs calculated the Lakers have 10.9 mil to reach 90% of cap and 20.3 mil to reach full cap. Pick up these two vets and leave some for next summer.
That said, there are the Training Camp Invites to look at.
_ Robert _ says
Most transformational players have been transformational almost immediately. There have not been many that became transformational after 4 years in the league (yes Curry). So we need to see some quick signs of that this year from DAR especially.
So since we do not yet have an immediate transformational player – the key is to have multiple projects, because some of them may not turn out. We have that with our youngsters, but with regard to FA, we should have gone younger, higher potential if possible. If that was not available – we should have waited and filled in with salary dumps (for picks) and role players. This would have kept future years powder dry. Shorter term deals would have been nice. Or team options.
In the case of Mosgov, can you imagine if he had previously signed a long term deal like this with Cleveland? They would be looking to unload him and would be willing to ship a pick to do it.
Everyone has been saying that this was all about development of the young players. I have not yet seen a good explanation as to why these signings help that cause (other than the fact that the two guys are over 30). We will get better, but in another year or so, we will wish these contracts did not exist. They will be coming off the books right around the time when some of our youngsters are due their huge deals (hopefully if they turn out). Then what ? – depending on the CBA at the time – we may box ourselves into the next corner where we do not have enough money to resign our own players and get star FAs to go with them. Somebody paint me the picture towards contention with a timeline.
rafisher1 says
I would like to commend Darius on a great article, AND all of the commenters for actually talking basketball instead of trash talking each other and insulting players, except for Keith’s “Biyombo is trash”. If you are playing in the NBA, you are not trash. Very refreshing.
Msway says
rafisher1, I would have responded to you but i didnt see your post, I need to learn how to answer according to this site, but i guess this method will work. I think we should resign Huertos , Black and Bass if possible and this harkless dude in portland I believe could satisfy some of our fans with a young talent with upside, depending on how expensive and his RFA status, My concern at this point is will anthony brown make our roster? I really hope he is going to develop.But this harkless kid is a Talent kind of a big bazemore and could definately push our talent pool.
new rr says
why should we really
care about that?
Three reasons:
1.As Mattal says, the Lakers have just invested
big money in depreciating assets. You can talk about culture and leadership all
day, but the game is played on the floor, and it is very likely that both Deng
and Mozgov will get materially worse/miss time as their contracts progress. Again:
a lot of people used these kinds of arguments to support the Hibbert deal.
2.These deals may be hard to move, if a star
becomes available. Similar deals to younger guys, like Biyombo and Crabbe,
would probably be easier to move.
3.No one outside of a subset of the Lakers’
fanbase believes that there is a transformational franchise anchor on the
roster right now. Russell is pretty well thought of, but he is generally seen
as an ASG-type guy, not a first-ballot HOF type guy. Ingram is very young and
has nice potential, but he is not seen as a guy who turns your franchise
around, either. If he were, he would
have gone #1. Opinions on Randle vary, but I think his ceiling is seen as being
as #3 type guy with the kind of value Lamar Odom had, and a lot of people don’t
think he will be nearly that good. Nance is seen as a functional rotation player.
There is one guy in this generation of players who is seen as a franchise
anchor, and he plays for Minnesota.
Is it possible that the conventional wisdom on these guys is
wrong? Sure. Maybe Byron was that bad, Walton is going to be that smart, and
these guys are all going to break their likely ceilings into small pieces and
form the core of a Finals team. I hope so. But I will note that the
conventional wisdom on the Lakers the last three years was that they would have
bad, mostly hopeless teams, and they did. The people here who were talking
about the last three teams in optimistic terms were dead wrong.
So, that being the case, I think the FO would have been better
off trying to add younger players, even just OK ones, like Biyombo and Crabbe, even the though they are both limited talents,
to expand the young talent base, rather than going with Deng and Mozgov. Mozgov’s deal seems to have to set the market
for that group of 5s: Biyombo got 4/70 and Mahinmi got 4/64. I would rather
have either of them than Mozgov. I also
would have been OK with just getting a 5 and then going cheap with the rest of
the moves, and keeping more “financial flexibility.”
One last point: Jerry West built the Lake Show and the Threepeat
teams in a very different time, and that team was not down draft picks. But one
thing he didn’t do, in getting the franchise back on track, was give big roles
to older guys. All those guys–Divac, Campbell, Van Exel, Ceballos, Lynch,
Peeler, Jones—came to the Lakers when they were young.
Like I said yesterday, I do not think these deals are
disasters, and Deng and Mozgov are guys I will enjoy rooting for. But I do not
see these moves as a reason to have more confidence in the FO.
rafisher1 says
Msway Yes – Anthony Brown is on the roster. When writers mention Randle, Russell, Ingram, and Clarkson, they sometimes mention Nance, but usually leave out Black and Anthony Brown as part of the young group. Black and Brown didn’t get much of a shot last year, so let’s see what Walton will do with them. Walton has mentioned Black, so I presume he will be resigned. Mitch said Zubac will take some time to develop, so that means Black should get more playing time, especially as a small ball center.
rafisher1 says
_ Robert _ Darius covered some of your questions in the article. Those two big contracts begin to timeout as the kids come off of rookie scale contracts. The cap is projected to 108 mil next summer and will probably go up from there. By not using all of this years cap, 20.3 mil left at this point, plus the increase the Lakers should be in decent shape next summer. That said, they still won’t be far enough along the development curve to lure the top talent who will want to go to contenders. So far, the Lakers FO is doing exactly what Walton said they would do this year.
Have patience.
Msway says
I was pretty excited about anthony brown at the 2015 draft, it would be great if he can nock down a higher percentage of his shots this year and build his confidence to become a major contributer.As far as black, I think this kid is a stud, but byron kind of hid him last year.This is a new season,new coach and philosophy,Kobe is gone,Nothing better for a city to come together with our own drafted players, and watch them compete for us and develope into battle tested champs. Hey rafisher, you ever caught a ray on 6pound?
jameskatt says
No legitimate star in the NBA wants to come to the Lakers because the Lakers Front Office has been so dysfunctional, toxic, and backstabbing to their own star players (Pau Gasol, etc.). The stench of this will linger for years. Star players simply cannot trust the Lakers. Hopefully Luke Walton can change that perception. LUKE!
So the Lakers have to rebuild the old fashion way: building its roster from the ground up with draft picks. And adding veteran mid-level talent players to act as the glue.
In a way, this is the best long-term way to do this – if the Lakers Front Office is good enough to find talent.
In comparison, the San Antonio Spurs are fantastic in doing this – always picking up great players with late draft picks.
Drew Gordon says
rafisher1 _ Robert _ I agree, Robert. How much added value does signing Mozgov really bring to the development of the young core. Because the on court value is probably going to be minimal. Compare that to the cost of the contract and its hamstringing effect on cap space moving forward. And, as I posted below, compare it to the contracts Biyombo, Mahimni, and Aldrich just signed. Couldn’t we have been a possibly more enticing option for Biyombo? Orlando has Vucevic.
Drew Gordon says
Msway Harkless no longer makes as much sense after the Deng signing–Crabbe does. Harkless is a 3/4. Crabbe is a 2/3. The question is do you offer him potentially 20+ mil.
TempleOfJamesWorthy says
Just a couple of quick comments:
A) There were no perfect solutions for the Lakers this offseason. They have a very young very sparse roster whose only veteran influences are Lou Williams (probably an OK guy, but has no reputation as a positive mentor) and Swaggy P (enough said). The money chasing the available free agents meant prices would be high. They are at least 3 years away from being attractive to top-tier free agents, and the CBA salary floor forces the Lakers (as every other team) to spend their money. In that environment, the Mozgov/Deng signings are not terrible.
B) Unmoveable contracts? Maybe yes, maybe no. If Mozgov/Deng were being paid far above market rate, then it might be a problem. But the evidence suggests they’re not. Evan Turner got 4 years/$70 million. Ian Mahinmi got a Mozgov-like contract. The examples are legion. Two or three years from now, almost every team will have poor-value contracts roughly matching Mozgov, Deng, et al. Trading them, straight up, of course won’t improve matters. But such deals can be incorporated into larger transactions where there’s an overall net gain. I don’t think Mozgov/Deng will be necessarily untradeable.
_ Robert _ says
If either the Celtics or the Spurs sign Durant – I am going to be very unhappy
Drew Gordon says
new rr Well said. I think it may be time to question whether or not a change needs to be made in the front office. I’m just not really seeing any kind of adherence to a long-term vision. And this is coming from someone who had been defending them pretty consistently over the past couple years. Welp, not anymore. Unfortunately, Jeannie would be the one making the call. Not sure I have a lot of trust there either. I’m just hoping that the kiddos make a huge leap under Luke’s tutelage.
Drew Gordon says
jameskatt The problem is that the worst thing you can do under the current CBA is to add middling talent on pricey long term deals. The cost is always more than the benefit. The opposite is true for high-end talent and young players on cost-controlled contracts. In these cases, the value generally outweighs the cost. This is why reasonable people outside of the Lakers sphere (538, Pelton, etc.) are bashing the Mozgov deal.
Clay Bertrand says
jameskatt
Dude, its the team record and lack of talent that keeps players from wanting to come here not a story about brothers and sisters not exchanging Deepest Sympathy cards over Pet Deaths.
“In comparison, the San Antonio Spurs are fantastic in doing this – always picking up great players with late draft picks.”
_______________________________
Every one believes this urban myth about the AMAZING Spurs: EVERYONE they draft ends up being good and they ALWAYS make great choices drafting late. They drafted 2 players who turned out to be starters late in the First Round (Parker) and Ginobili with a Second Round pick.
OTHER THAN THOSE PICKS, the Spurs vaunted Late Round Mining of Gems has been largely pedestrian. In fact, the Lakers record over the last 10 year is nearly comparable to the Spurs.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/a-decade-of-drafts-which-teams-fared-best/
Drew Gordon says
TempleOfJamesWorthy Wouldn’t Mahimni have been preferable to Mozgov? He even signed for less.
Clay Bertrand says
Drew Gordon jameskatt
” The problem is that the worst thing you can do under the current CBA is to add middling talent on pricey long term deals.”
______________________________________________
The CBA is going to look different in one year. There will be a strike or a lock out even if not a protracted one and this agreement will be tweaked if not changed significantly in some respects. Sky ain’t falling yet!
Clay Bertrand says
_ Robert _
If Durant signs with the Celtics, Bill Simmons’ mind will literally be blown rendering him a drooling vegetable who needs his diapers changed even more often than he does now. That would be the only silver lining IMO.
Clay Bertrand says
Tyron Lue Tweet on Mosgov:
Lue says Mozgov was “the best verticality guy in the league.” Says it will be tough to lose him and Dellavedova.
Drew Gordon says
Clay Bertrand Drew Gordon jameskatt Very true. But at this point, that is still an unknown variable. I wouldn’t say the sky is falling. The only way that happens is if our young core turns out to not be very good. But, I still think it is fair to call the Mozgov deal a mistake based on current information. Obviously, there is a chance he surprises. I just think that percent chance is realistically too low for the deal we gave him.
Also, let me take a second to commend you for your insight provided on this blog. You are easily my favorite commenter, and I always scroll through to read your thoughts. Always, good stuff!
Drew Gordon says
Clay Bertrand jameskatt Yeah, our recent drafting has been the highlight of our front office, along with the Luke hiring of course.
Drew Gordon says
Clay Bertrand _ Robert _ Unfortunately, my mind would probably do the same.
Drew Gordon says
Clay Bertrand I’m more concerned with his P&R defense. Also, a question for you: Do you know how good his hands are? He actually rolls like a locomotive to the rim–one of the most encouraging aspects he brings to the team. Just wasn’t sure how well he catches.
Mildredpierce says
One thing to point out on these two: they both have playoff experience, and performed well, on pretty good teams-last years Cavs and this year’s Heat. These aren’t guys off the garbage heap.
Clay Bertrand says
Drew Gordon Clay Bertrand jameskatt
I’m with you in that I am concerned about these deals somewhat. But I am going to quietly reserve judgment after initially being puzzled because I have been wrong before. Sometimes these odd looking signings are actually good basketball fits.
For example, I didn’t understand the Brian Shaw signing back in the day or really, the Ron Harper deal. Both seemed useless wasted signings to me at the time but both were guys the Coaching staff wanted to implement their vision.
I still don’t like the length/structure of these deals per se, but the fit I am willing to wait and see on. Luke was in favor of these signings to help fulfill his vision.
Thanks for the kind words bro! We are all Laker Lifers in here and I’ve been maniacally/pathetically obsessed with the Lakers since 3rd grade. Its an illness……Lol
You post solidly yourself! This is a good group here even when we differ. We fancy ourselves as the PEOPLE’S FRONT OFFICE!!!!!
_Craig W says
Drew Gordon TempleOfJamesWorthy
One key here is to realize that Brian Shaw coached Moz and not all the teams we will play during the year will be GS. GS has Bogut for a reason. Also, Walton will not likely be duplicating the GS system. As Luke said, you have to adjust your system to the skills of the players you have.
We knew that we would have to overpay for our players and we knew the prices would go way up. No matter what we were told, there was ‘sticker shock’ when the Mos deal was announced. The ‘talking heads’ drive much of this conversation and fan unrest and they like nothing better than to get open shots on the Lakers, as it draws all kinds of hits on their comments. This is why I think Ding released his article when he did.
We have two vets who are going to be good to have in the locker room for our youngsters. They will also contribute much for the next few years (Mos has little NBA mileage for his age). Let’s not exhaust ourselves wishing for the perfect and try to see the benefits of what has been done. We didn’t strike out, like we did the last couple of years – even if we didn’t get the cream.
Drew Gordon says
_Craig W Drew Gordon TempleOfJamesWorthy Ughhhhh, the Kevin Ding article (ghost written by Jeannie?). Well said though!
Clay Bertrand says
Drew Gordon Clay Bertrand
His PnR D really isn’t as bad as would be imagined. His PnR finishing is also not bad. I believe his finishing clip is well above average as a dive man. He should be pretty effective in this role and would instantly become the Lakers best PnR big. I’ve seen some numbers on his finishing and I read an article hashed thru Bleacher Report that I will try to find to post here in case you haven’t seen it.
VincentCh says
Hello Everyone,
On the Side note, Washington just got Trey Burke for pennies…
can i say WOW.
*Long time reader, 1st time poster.
Clay Bertrand says
Drew Gordon Clay Bertrand _ Robert _
The FB&G crew will be there by your bedside until you come out of it bro!!!! Can’t say the same for Lil Bill……….
Drew Gordon says
Clay Bertrand Drew Gordon jameskatt Yeah, sometimes I wonder if the front office ever keeps tabs on this blog. Always a lot of very good takes here. I know I would if I were them. Makes sense to source as many different thoughtful views as possible.
Like you, it was more the length of the deals that freaked me out. But, you raise a good point regarding Luke. If he was for these moves, we certainly owe him the benefit of the doubt. And if anyone should be seen as a visionary within the Lakers org, I’m betting on Luke.
Clay Bertrand says
VincentCh
Welcome to FB&B!
The First Rule of FB&B is You don’t talk about FB&B!!
The Second Rule of FB & B is……….CRAP I forget the Second Rule but I think its similar to the first!!! ; )
That is a GREAT pick up for the Wiz! For a future 2nd rounder too…….SMH……Woulda been a nice Guard pick up for us but maybe another young guys isn’t in the cards for us at this time.
Drew Gordon says
Clay Bertrand Drew Gordon _ Robert _ Haha. As for Bill, he seems to be on a downward trajectory already. I used to be able to tolerate him. But more and more he seems to be heading toward the Stephen A and Skip realm.
Drew Gordon says
Clay Bertrand Drew Gordon Yeah, I had seen his roll numbers were quite good. I just wasn’t sure how much was due to small sample size and playing against favorable bench matchups. If he can be a force in that area of the game, it would be a massive boon to Russell’s development.
On an unrelated note, what do you think about potentially offering Crabbe an offer sheet? Caveat, if Pau signs there, they will have to renounce him and he becomes an UFA. He’s from LA and as a 2/3 would be a great young fit for the team–Lou would become expendable. It would probably take at least a Bazemore sized deal to get him. Thoughts?
A Horse With No Name says
Wow. Tyler Johnson to the Nets for fifty, with poison pill provisions (peter piper picked a pepper). Will the Heat match? We are so dang lucky that Jordan Clarkson bleeds purple and gold . . . . such a deal for the Lakers. I love this kid, I get misty eyed thinking about the purity of his vision for himself.
A Horse With No Name says
Clay Bertrand
You mean we got the true King of Verticality? And he can run without tripping over his feet? Talk about an upgrade.
A Horse With No Name says
_ Robert _
Don’t worry. No way no how, dude. It’s either OKC or the Warriors. Keep your angst manageable and worry about our vet signings instead.
Clay Bertrand says
Drew Gordon Clay Bertrand _ Robert _
Yeah, I used to dig Grantland and the pop culture/sports fusion was fresh IMO.
But Bitter Bitch Boston Bill, his inferiority complex/ego, and his ridiculous, unwavering New England HOMERISM just has me waiting ever so patiently for every opportunity to SAVOR his suffering. Its the greatest single Premeditated Schadenfreude planning I have ever undertaken. His time is coming…….. lol
Clay Bertrand says
Drew Gordon Clay Bertrand
Personally, I’d like to see the Lakers fill out the roster with minimumish deals and roll the cap space to next season. We MAY be in a position to bring in more of a difference maker next summer and at this point, any additional spending begins to eat into the potential MAX slot for next summer.
I’m not saying we go back into the whole HOARDING CAP SPACE and fielding a broken team scenario of the past couple of years. I’m just saying at this point, why ruin the potential of adding a real difference making FA in next years class by adding a more medium level guy at this time???
Not to mention Crabbe is Restricted and the contract would likely need to contain poison pill structuring to keep Portland from Matching. Not ideal IMO.
Clay Bertrand says
A Horse With No Name Clay Bertrand
LOL! That’s the rumor!!
Most of the pundits, especially those INSIDERS who hold themselves out as stat gurus and analytics specialists are just KILLING the Lakers moves (mostly the Mozgov signing). But the closer to you get to ACTUAL BASKETBALL PEOPLE, i.e. coaches, gms etc., they don’t think Mozgov is the STIFF the fans believe him to be. He is under the radar in what he can do as a 7 footer in many respects.
Lue, Shaw, and Luke all see something worthwhile in this guy. Its not like Jim Buss woke from a Scientologist Induced hypnosis eyes wide open repeatedly uttering the word “MOZGOV…….MOZGOV…….MOZGOV…..” like he did with Bynum. Lol
Busboys4me says
Like his front office resembles more a retirement home and it does bring transferring NBA basketball team in today’s world. Free agents who are interested in coming to the Lakers would rather be wowed by future earnings
Clay Bertrand says
Mildredpierce
I know people will roll their eyes with this comment…lol….but MOZGOV is literally a CHAMPION!!! When we visit Cleveland, he will get his ring in front of his new team and EVERYONE will be checking that out in the Locker Room………
Every little bit helps.
Clay Bertrand says
A Horse With No Name
We are lucky both sides moved to lock in JC!!!
We coulda been the ones eating Peter Pipers Peck of Poisioned Pickle Peppers!!!!!!
Clay Bertrand says
@Drew Gordon & Anyone else who hasn’t seen this piece to sip some Mozgov Kool Aid:
http://www.todaysfastbreak.com/nba-west/los-angeles-lakers/lakers-addition-timofey-mozgov-actually-makes-sense/
Just a different view……
Busboys4me says
Like his front office resembles more a retirement home and it does bring transferring NBA basketball team in today’s world. Free agents who are interested in coming to the Lakers would rather be wowed by future earnings and possibilities rather than tradition and past accomplishments. We need to get younger and all facets of the game.
With that being said, we also need to re-ward those players who were there for us. It makes no sense to have Brandon Bass swinging in the wind when he did everything that we asked of him. He should be side post haste given that he was a great locker room guy and a damn good player. He and Lou Williams were are only logical veterans behind Kobe last year. It’s time to stretch NickY and get a player like Crabbe for his offensive potential then add Jabari Brown and the Serbian F/C (Nikolai Jovanovic) from SC and be done with it.
Has anyone seen Jonathan Holmes? He would be the my final player given a chance.
Clay Bertrand says
Busboys4me
I too wonder what happened to “Johhny Wadd”???? I thought Holmes had a nice game for the modern NBA. Sucks he separated his shoulder diving for a ball!!
Although he is another PF (we got like 50!!) and fairly raw, Auguste the kid from Notre Dame on our Summer League team is another guy to keep an eye on in addition to Jovanovic. Jovanovic is IMO sort of like Sacre in that his upside is pretty limited. Auguste still has ceiling to develop as a potential Energy 4-5 IMO. Is there a role for him here with us???? We shall see………
Busboys4me says
We sabotaged two years of our team by deciding to pay Kobe $48 million for two years, but we basically paid homage to a player that was one of the greatest of all time. To see what Miami is doing with DWade reminds me why players almost always take their money first, you just can’t trust a businessman (see Mr. Durant from Hell on Wheels). Let’s see how Dallas reacts to Dirk and San Antonio to Timmy as they play their swan songs.
Old as we may be, sometimes respect and decorum is way more palatable. Hopefully the younger generation sees that and we can play on it next year.
Busboys4me says
As long as he hasn’t gone the way of Javaris Critterton, I’m okay with bringing him back….oh the discussions we had on that guy. lol
Drew Gordon says
Clay Bertrand A Horse With No Name Clay, you are successfully making me feel less anxiety ridden over this. To back up your point, here is a nice piece in much the same vein. Ironically, it’s on The Ringer, but Tjarks is formerly of Grantland. It’s worth a gander.
You HOPE that isn’t how Jim made this decision.
https://theringer.com/lakers-sign-timofey-mozgov-luol-deng-2016-nba-free-agency-59da626f5a4e#.b1mj1junh
Drew Gordon says
Clay Bertrand Thanks! I linked another positive piece to you below. I will post it again here.
https://theringer.com/lakers-sign-timofey-mozgov-luol-deng-2016-nba-free-agency-59da626f5a4e#.b1mj1junh
Drew Gordon says
Busboys4me It is possible that treating Kobe as we did increases our cachet with future free agents. I’m sure players took notice of that loyalty.
_Chris J says
The “they paid a lot of money for them” argument doesn’t concern me because this summer everyone is getting paid a lot, and next summer could be worse. If Austin Rivers is worth nearly $12 million a year, I’m OK with paying slightly more for a 7-footer and a quality wing. Yes, three-year deals may have been preferable, but there’s no promise the Lakers would have landed either guy if that reduced offer was made. I am optimistic both can lend something the the team on and off the floor. A healthy Mozgov looked great in the Finals a year ago, and Luke saw that talent up close, as has Shaw.
That said, a year ago I liked the Hibbert deal, so who knows? But I am not going to slam either of these moves at this point. Both ostensibly address glaring needs on the roster, and the market value is what it is in today’s NBA.
Msway says
Good article from hannah kulick at laker nation
Clay Bertrand says
Drew Gordon Busboys4me
Honestly, I think this angle is overplayed and overrated. I doubt VERY highly that this will be taken into account by many FAs we have the chance at. It did nothing for us this off season. Maybe an older broken down Chris Paul will say, “Hey, I wanna go there so that when I’m HURT, they will still pay me top dollar!!
However the Fact is that Kobe’s contract was earned through accumulated years of SUPERSTAR production and a multitude of rings. You could say he was just being compensated for the over and above Championship income he brought in. It doesn’t mean every player will get this kind of treatment just for signing here. They have to bring THE GLORY too!!!!
Some people paint the picture that Kobe’s contract was just a DUMB SIGNING as opposed to some grandiose contractual send off to Kobe. How it all translates to today’s players in the long run I think will be minimal.
I think it even potentially sends the OPPOSITE message–THE LAKERS WILL HONOR ONE PLAYER AT THE EXPENSE OF THE TEAM. That’s not a stable strategy of continuity and competitiveness like the Spurs maintain.
The Spurs and Dallas mind you have had their stars in Dirk and Tim take pay CUTS to aid in keeping the team competitive. So did Wade. Did Kobe ask the question, “Well if you’re gonna be paying ME that much, can you still go sign anybody decent??” Alas, the question likely never entered his mind.
If Free Agents believe getting overpaid for what they produce is attractive, why not just point to the Mozgov and Deng deals as evidence of that.
Though I DO understand the Loyalty to Kobe spin, I truly don’t believe it carries much weight.
But MAN do I hope I’m totally wrong!!
Msway says
Drew Gordon Msway Does this guy bring more than lou on a sweet deal?Isnt Crabbe a decent defender,I’m gona take a look at him but my answer is no at 20mil unless he has it all.
Clay Bertrand says
Msway
I agree! Well written and with some nice perspective on we the SNIPING fanbase!!
Here is a quote from the article encapsulating the point I try to make regarding listening to people from BSPN and their TALK SHOW idiots:
“The Lakers are under attack from members of the elitist national media who have a tabloid mentality but disguise themselves as serious journalists.”
I would add, they disguise themselves as BASKETBALL EXPERTS because they think they know how to read stats!
Here is the article link:
http://www.lakersnation.com/time-for-lakers-fans-to-rally-around-the-team/2016/07/03/
Msway says
Clay Bertrand Msway Yeah she’s a stud,Haven’t heard from her since last summer when she left lakers nation,This off season must have riled her back into the loop
Clay Bertrand says
Msway Clay Bertrand
I know one of the girls there took maternity leave from what I understand. Not sure if it was her though. I hadn’t seen her writing in awhile myself and I find her one of their BEST writers.
Alexander_ says
Drew Gordon new rr A business axiom is that, when direction is wrong, it’s always the top guy’s fault (CEO, or in this case, the Buss family). Undoubtedly, whatever Mitch does is guided by the interests and direction of his boss. I cringe when he gets lumped in with Jimmy in so many comments. He’s earned better from us imho.
Msway says
Clay Bertrand Msway Glad She’s Back, she is a very attractive reporter that gets some good info from or around the FO
Clay Bertrand says
While the Lakers appear to have a plan they are executing, at least on paper and in the abstract, there are a few teams to look at and say, WTF are these guys trying to do??
Namely, Dallas, Chicago, Sacramento (shocker)………… I see some weird wheel spinning with these teams.
Teams I think are doing a solid job of improving this off season include, Orlando, Indiana, Portland, and you can see that the Nets are making progressive moves with Sean Marks similar to the small baby steps type of team building moves the Lakers are pursuing. I sort of consider the Lakers and Nets to be in similar shape in the LACKING DRAFT PICKS department so I’m always interested to see how THEY are managing their situation.
Msway says
Clay Bertrand Dallas and Sacramento are also 2 teams that we need to start beating this year at home and on the road,including others.
Clay Bertrand says
Msway Clay Bertrand
DID NOT KNOW about the “very attactive” part!!! I will be looking into this like NOW!!!! —–OK just looked her up and WOW!!!!!!! I have NEVER seen her before!!!! Good Lord!! Thanks for the tip!!! TWC needs this girl IN STUDIO!!!! Hot Damn I’m HOOKED!!!!!!!!!
Clay Bertrand says
Msway Clay Bertrand
Agreed. I’m still in a Hannah Kulik haze bro………….
Clay Bertrand says
Random Fact: Ian Mahinmi is only about 3.5 months younger than Mozgov. For those believing he was a better target based on age
Alexander_ says
I’m getting over my heartburn from the two FA signings, as less relevant that we think. A 34yo Horford may not be any better than a 34yo Mozgov, but he’d be twice as expensive. Getting the next late transformational player a la Curry in 2016 FA class was a pipe dream, with only Whiteside having any such conceivable ceiling, and that’s beyond unlikely. To be contenders again we need lots of compounded luck, starting with breakout years toward a superstar trajectory from one or two of our youngsters, and solid development of the rest. Add health and one max guy next year, and then it becomes a long maybe. If whomever we signed this year is not a sub in three, we are didn’t make it. We needed workable starters and good locker room guys, and we got ’em.
new rr says
Drew Gordon TempleOfJamesWorthy
Mahinmi got 4/64, supposedly. Like I said, Mozgov’s deal seems to to have set the market for Biyombo and Mahnimi. Mahinmi, like Mozgov, does not have that much mileage on his legs, and his basic metrics were better last year.
new rr says
Clay Bertrand Msway
Clay,
WRT Tyler Johnson and Jordan Clarkson, the basic metrics tell a differnet story and I would guess that Clarkson’s deal affected Johnson’s. So we will see how it plays out.
wwlofficial says
_ Robert _ An effort to explain things we are not privy to, is called rationalization. Consider my best effort to rationalize the things that have happened so far.
Timofey Mozgov – had a very good 2014/15 season, scored a bunch in the Finals and fans clamored for him to play more. But Blatt wanted to match GSW’s death lineup, therefore Moz got less and less PT. With Lue stepping in, it became even more apparent he wasn’t going to see daylight. Lue is Lebron’s puppet, therefore, he would do what Lebron requests or commands.
FWIW, Brian Shaw coached Moz in his best days in DEN. The 2 had a successful pairing.
Moz is a 14/10 with 2bpg big in his career, which includes misused rookie seasons and seasons coming off injury.
Luol Deng – a veteran whose mileage is well-documented. He is probably 60 in basketball years. But so far as we’ve seen him, his defensive rating has been consistently positive at the 3/4. He played better last season slotted into Miami’s stretch 4.
Luke Walton is the kind of coach that will be bold enough to start and play him at 4. Will that affect Randle or Nance? Yes, but that’s up to them to be accountable w/ their actions. Randle is the oldest among our “elite youth” club. Clarkson is pretty much who he is already, with some refining. But Russell and Ingram are the priority and having Deng beside these guys is of paramount importance.
In summary, signing 2 guys who are of high character and will increase the odds of the team to make playoffs is a good move. Are they overpaid? Yes, they are. Otherwise, they would be staying on their respective teams or headed elsewhere.
The thing we all need to realize in free agency is you’d have to offer minutes or cash for the other guy to come over.
wwlofficial says
Drew Gordon TempleOfJamesWorthy Mahinmi agreed w/ WAS a 4-yr 64M deal. He’s also 29 like Moz. And between the 2, Moz has better potential and better fit and better in every way.
If Mahinmi cost 8M, then maybe. If they cost the same, Moz >>
wwlofficial says
VincentCh Good deal for Burke, WAS was wise to capitalize.
wwlofficial says
A Horse With No Name JC6 is also dating Kendall Jenner. He might be giving up something around 7-8M to assure that keeps on happening.
wwlofficial says
Busboys4me Atleast we’re interesting in some way now… win?
Clay Bertrand says
new rr Clay Bertrand Msway
I would expect some adjustments in the numbers (the metrics) being that JC had much more court time. I don’t know how much his deal directly affected TJs sheet because one would think that his sample size is much bigger than TJs etc.
But you have to believe that ultimately, all of these signings are influencing the market especially in an environment of frenzied spending and less vibrant and drawn out negotiations caused by the competition among so many teams with cash to sign guys.
wwlofficial says
Imagine if the Lakers only signed Clarkson at this point. What would our comments be like?
“Lakers can’t even convince washed up, geriatrics to come play for us.”
“Russell snitching on everyone caused this.”
“We better pay Rajon Rondo 20M a year.”
“We better pay Dwyane Wade 25M a year just to get nearer the salary floor.”
“This front office has no clue.”
Imagine.
Clay Bertrand says
wwlofficial
Simple to imagine. Just look at the Dallas Mavericks!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL……they had all the promise in the world with the First Whiteside meeting and the First Conley meeting……
Where are they now???? Mark Cuban and his Pumpkin Pie Haircut are just sitting there cryin in their Shiner Bock!!!!!!!!!
I like where we are headed…….
new rr says
Clay Bertrand new rr Msway
Sure. You could also argue that Johnson might grow with more PT whereas this is who Clarkson is as a player. We will see.
harry_young_shi says
“And, I can almost guarantee you, if these guys are that good, there won’t be many free agents who decline meetings or suddenly need an extra year/more money in their contract to play with them.”
And there’s a what, one in a million chance for each of them becoming a star? It’s ridiculous how some other Lakers fans live in like a fantasy world or something. There is little to no chance that ingram will be the next KD. Randle is already looking like a bust, and russell’s lack of speed and quickness will start to become even more evident this year with all excuses gone i.e. no more Bryon and Kobe. Get back to reality. Our team sucks. There’s no real justification for these signings other than the fact that no other players are even willing to look our way regardless of the amount of money we threw at them. It’s going to be like that for 4 more years. We’re tanking until 2020, and we signed mozgov and deng until 2020 because that’s when we will have for sure draft picks of our own again. And this time, I hope Jim Buss is gone by then and Mitch does the right thing by trading those picks away. We let some good opportunities slip away this year rejecting the Cousins trade and the Butler draft day trade. With Jim Buss out of the way this time, I have complete faith in Mitch to get us back to a top playoffs team.
KevTheBold says
Darius,..Thank you for your thoughtful breakdown of the situation.
Between your’s and various other articles, I have a much better feeling about these deals.
As a consequence I am ready to welcome and support these veterans who gave up any further hopes of rings, to anchor our young team, and teach them the ins and outs of the NBA, which in effect is a gift to our future.
I also appreciate their characters traits, and from what I understand, it was Walton who recognized this, and in the case of Mozgov was personally responsible for bringing him in.
I hope the Lakers doctors do all they can to bring his knee up to specs. If so, I do believe he will not only show the kids by word, but by deed, just how powerful he can be.
As for Deng, I have always loved his game. What he will bring to our kids, especially Ingram will be invaluable.
As to the opinions of overpayment,.. Kareem clarified it, when he said that these veterans needed to feel secure in the long run, in order to relax and unlock the treasure boxes of knowledge they surely have.
I’m really looking forward to summer league and the next four seasons !!
Go Lakers !!
KevTheBold says
harry_young_shi
I don’t know what games you have been watching, how long you have been a fan of the nba or what you expect,..but your opinions are pure pessimism, based on what?
There are many experts around the league that believe we have some future stars on our team,.. and our front office is betting all they have on that belief, and I’m with them.
Who are you again?
Msway says
wwlofficial A Horse With No Name Way ta go Kendall keep that kid firing on all cylinders
Clay Bertrand says
new rr Clay Bertrand Msway
Oh totally. I don’t even think you’d have to argue! Lol. I think that both guys are actually still improving. I think that Clarkson is more athletic but is more of a combo with Johnson more a PG.
I really like Clarkson’s work ethic and humility (something I hope doesn’t get Kardashianed away from him..ugh!!). He has really got big in the upper body this off season if you havn’t seen him. I saw him outside his camp in Corona a couple of weeks ago and he’s noticeably thicker. I’m hoping he will regain his trajectory upward that he had when he was playing PG his first season.
You never know….Clarkson may actually be our PG instead of, or more often than, Russell.
As you say, we will see.
BigCitySid10552 says
wwlofficial 4. The Entitled – those who just can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to be a Laker and live in L. A.
bluehill says
Clay Bertrand wwlofficial Hmmm. Maybe something else matters to these players besides the FO. I think most would agree that the Mav’s FO has a lot less drama than ours, but they have struck out the last couple of years even with no state income taxes.
BigCitySid10552 says
– Bottom line: if these players can help us to forget the last lousy 3 seasons, then all is well. If these guys help us to remember how & why the last 3 years were so awful, then this season & these players will not be viewed to highly.
matt24 says
Dallas mavericks still have over 60 million in cap left.
Here’s my unofficial breakdown of remaining cap room (unless someone else got a deal today) and team needs
Mavericks 65 c,pf,pg,bench , 76ers 40 pg,sg,sf, thunder (no durant) 40 sf,pf, celtics 35,pf,pf, twolves 28,pf, nets 27,sg,pf, heat 26,sg,sg,sf, lakers,c, tblazers 26,c,sf, nuggets 25,pf,?, bucks 23,c,?, bulls 20,pg, kings 19,pg, jazz 19,c, warriors 19,c,sf, rockets 18,c,sf, suns 18,pf, magic 15,pg, hornets 15,c, knicks 11,bench,c, spurs 11,sg, hawks 11,sg, pelicans 9, cavs 9, pistons 8, wizards 5.
These teams look done. Pacers, raptors, grizzlies, and clippers
Drew Gordon says
matt24 We don’t need a center.
Drew Gordon says
harry_young_shi Can this be flagged for idiocy?
KevTheBold says
Drew Gordon harry_young_shi
You mean this?
@harry_young_shi “And there’s a what, one in a million chance for each of them becoming a star?”
1 in a million,…Lol
matt24 says
We need center and point guard
Alexander_ says
Reports now say that KD will decide tomorrow between GSW and OKC. GSW is already at $80m, only 14m under. By renouncing Barnes and Ezeli, they get to 22m under. To drop to 30m under, they have to part with Bogut, Iggy, or Thompson and Livingston. For that they will need partners.
I can’t imagine dropping their only center, Bogut. Thompson and Livingston gut the team further in two positions, while Iggy plays the same position as KD and is the oldest of the four. I presume they will trade Iggy for considerations (nice ending contract and value). While the Lakers are in the same division, they are not exactly a threat, and Iggy might prefer to play for Luke, as a gimme to both.
I wonder if a trade for a reasonable player like Nance could get it done – it would just about bring them to the cap. I like LNJ a lot, but adding Iggy could tip the progress scales by a year, with his leadership, institutional knowledge of GSW system/philosophy, defense, 3’s, and ability to play the 2/3, the ultimate 3+D. With this we would pick up 10m in salary, expiring 11m in 2017, all good. Am I daydreaming, or is this possible?
This would give us a seasoned player in every position with Mozgov-Deng-Iggy-LWill(-Huertas), it would move Deng toward the 4, and create deeper, better balanced rotations in every position. Add the four quality youngs, and we’d have a surprisingly decent 8-deep team. I’d love it. Btw, a trade equivalent of Barnes-Iggy-Ezeli-and $12m cap is a hefty price to pay for a team that needs depth to play its style. Thoughts?
wwlofficial says
As it is, the Lakers have 13 guys on roster and some 21M in space. Low tier max is 22.1M so if we stretch Nick Young, we could potentially land one still. I personally believe its all about the RFAs at this point, who we can pry away from the other teams that will help us.
Brandon Ingram’s 1st year would be 120% of that 4,401,400 cap hold. Huertas and Black are likely back with deals around those amounts. Ivica Zubac might require a bit of our cap to sign, something around 1-2M starting for 3 seasons or so.
Alexander_ says
wwlofficial Do we know that the offered contracts are ascending, not even or descending? If we don’t try to add more expensive players, we could have agreements to front load the two contracts, so $36m in 2016 for cap “relief” of $31M in 2019-20.
wwlofficial says
Alexander_ wwlofficial front loading or backloading contracts can only be done on the increments stated. You can put in year 4 for year 1, and so forth.
There could also be a chance that the deals signed, are flat rates w/ no raises. Moz’s case would be 16M x 4; Deng 18M x 4; Clarkson 12.5M x 4.
Illustrated above is just the standard practice.
wwlofficial says
Props to Darius for the new commenting system. Really brings more lively discussion, as well as great interaction in between posts.
+100000
wwlofficial says
Alexander_ I would be willing to absorb Iggy, but I wouldn’t give up LNJr just yet. Guy has tremendous work ethic that can always translate well in the big leagues by year 3-4.
matt24 says
Nice,,, the spacing on those contracts looks thought out
matt24 says
Reported cap floor 85 million.
Msway says
wwlofficial Super interesting,I’m Thinking that we can squeeze Brandon bass into nicks slot here with a little from your space also,unless we move on from brandon or wait and try our luck at restricted free agency,Remember, If we hold our dough, we may suffer losses this season?IMO if we can bring in something big now I’d pull the trigger.We have cap increases coming in the future.Also, for something really big(this team still has more cash on hand from revenue earned and reserves the right to pay the luxury for something the FO really wanted ) I know that’s taking it really far. But we have to compete now and we cannot leave ammo in storage when our team needs it.I hope we can strike this market again this year.
Msway says
Its Nicks slot ,we need to upgrade here if we can,the question here is what do we need the most.Defense ,Scoring, What helps the most? S/G or S/For the 5?
fern16 says
Mike Conley 153 million. Are you kidding me?http://www.lakersnation.com/time-for-lakers-fans-to-rally-around-the-team/2016/07/03/
fern16 says
153 million for 15 points and 6 rebounds. Im flabbergasted…
fern16 says
That would mean Kevin Durant and Steph Curry must be worth 500 million each because at best Mike Conley is an average NBA player.
BuckFoston says
The Lakers are being smart here; getting “Pro’s Pros” to mentor the new young core. Hopefully we’ll keep next year’s top-3 pick in a strong draft class. But I watched Kobe riding the pine and air-balling shots while he was figuring it out, and going to be patient until Ingram starts punishing this league.
fern16 says
Ding ding ding!! We have a winner…
matt24 says
According to the website
Basketball.realgm.com
The following teams were interested in loul deng
Clippers, lakers, heat, twolves, and jazz
The following teams were interested in mosgov
Cavs, warriors, rockets, lakers, heat, and spurs
markangeloguerra says
Clay Bertrand orlando? really jeff green for 15m? i dont think that is a good signing..and the collision on the front court leads to less minutes for some good front court..ibaka,gordon,vucevic,now jeff green..i don’t know!
markangeloguerra says
new rr please remember that kobe was nothing but a pine rider before he came to be what is expected for him..I think DLO, JC, JR, and Ingram will be needing to play out first without kobe before we can judge them out..
okibevets says
“It’s been proven time and time again that a major key to becoming a
contending team in the NBA is by drafting a transformational player”
Magic and Kobe. Pretty much accounts for Lakers lore since 1980.
“But I watched Kobe riding the pine and air-balling shots while he was
figuring it out, and going to be patient until Ingram starts punishing
this league.”
Or he could be OJ Mayo. We don’t know. And for what I mean by that, some are, as the one soul somewhere on the vast interwebz noted, transformational from day one. Others grow into being better players than OJ Mayo, as they catch up and surpass. The one advantage there was in the old days, drafting college seniors, was simply because if you didn’t catch up by then, you probably weren’t going to do so. Also why it’s a tad bit premature to be calling anyone a bust.
Now on to the free agents, in toto. Hopefully, this short but entire affair has made plain to all how absurd is the CBA, what with Conley now having the richest contract in NBA history. I was otherwise hoping that the Lakers, what with the entire purpose of the CBA being to undermine their inherent advantage vis-a-vis some others, well, if possible, perhaps they might have signed Bass for one season for 30 mil or so. Seems like a nice enough fellow and what better way to make the absurdity yet more plain (and he’d take the deal).
No onto the Lakers free agents, Mozgov is on the team for one reason and one reason only. Isn’t the PnR. He’s on the team to play some interior defense. Since if he doesn’t, no matter how hard they might try, none of the young ‘uns will ever learn to play proper NBA team defense. In other words, Mozgov will be the interior anchor that allows the young ‘uns to learn and play a proper NBA team defense (there’s rather more to strong interior defense than merely rim protection). Deng is here to obviously impart what he can to Randle and Ingram, and on both ends of the floor. Like some others, I would have much preferred a three year with fourth year team option, and if for no other reason than that then they’d be more tradeable as expiring contracts in the midst of year 3.
On the other hand, it may not matter all that much, at least when it comes to getting out of the West and into the Finals, which is to say, the latest rumor is that the GSW might trade Livingston for Nerlens Noel. They do that and sign Durant, well, they do that and barring injury, we can pencil them in as NBA champs for the next five years or so. Pity that the Lakers don’t have a Livingston to trade for Noel. He’s the poor man’s Dwight Howard of old, meaning that he might not be able to do much else, but he sure can stop the penetration and contest shots outside of the lane. And since the media hacks are once again speaking to the notion of verticality, here it is:
http://www.sbnation.com/2015/3/4/8149083/nerlens-noel-defense-76ers-synergy-statistics-2015
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/pattisonave/Nerlens-Noel-.html
That’s verticality.
Lastly, and by the way, for the soul who wrote to the notion of the Spurs draft history being a myth, please, for the love of Deity, recognize that Pincus is just as much a media hack as some others. Just doesn’t have the personality to be a Stephen A or a Skip, that’s all. For what I mean, we can leave out Ginobilli, since 99, and so from 00 on, Parker, Barbosa, Hill, Mahinmi and Tiago S. That’s pretty darn close to a low tier playoff seed in the East, well, at least before Taigo’s injuries derailed his career. And so you get how good that drafting was, Hill went 26th. Everyone else went 28th. The Lakers over that same period can’t even come to close to sniffing that draft success. Now to round it out, I left out one other player, 2nd round, 55th pick of the draft in 2002, Luis Scola, remember him? Lower tier playoff seed in the East. With no pick higher than 26th. To borrow a phrase and put the same in the best light possible, one can only hope that the Lakers can get some of what the Spurs are smoking.
PeterForseth says
If you havent see this article im posting here before you can see why ive said the lakers franchise is in trouble and turmoil like never before,and all things it was Dr.Buss who screwed us.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2648618-a-family-divided-unrest-growing-in-buss-family-as-lakers-struggle-to-rebuild?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=web-des-art-top-19
Busboys4me says
Crabbe Developed into Dependable Role Player
After appearing in 66 games total during his first two NBA seasons, Crabbe averaged a career-best 10.8 points, 2.7 rebounds and 0.8 steals while shooting 45.9 percent from the field and 39.3 percent from three over the course of 81 regular-season appearances.
“My first two years it was just trying to figure out a lot of things,” Crabbe said during exit interviews, according to the Oregonian’s Sean Meagher. “Where can I be successful? How can I make an impact on the court for this basketball team? How can I contribute in other ways than just scoring?—and as the games went on and the season went along I feel like I continued to grow in a lot of areas.”
While he may not be a household name just yet, Crabbe already ranks among the league’s top three-point shooters. Beyond canning 39.3 percent of his total looks, Crabbe drilled 43 percent of his corner threes—shots that accounted for 30.2 percent of his attempts from beyond the arc.
Furthermore, Crabbe converted 41.9 percent of all catch-and-shoot three-point shots a season ago, according to SportVU player-tracking data provided to NBA.com.
Finally, Crabbe scored an outrageous 1.19 points per possession on spot-up shots during the 2015-16 campaign, per Synergy Sports data. Not only did that tally rank in the 93.7th percentile, but it was better than the marks posted by Klay Thompson, Bradley Beal and Kevin Durant, among others.
Busboys4me says
I read the article when it was first printed. There is nothing that we don’t already know. We all want Jimbo out.
Busboys4me says
My dream has been to trade Randle for Noel. Noel at center with Deng, Ingram, Clarkson and Russell would be NICE!!!
I’m one of the few that sees no growth potential in Randle. His doppelgänger would be Zack Randolph. But I just don’t see him ever being as good. He’s more athletic, can handle the ball better, but lacks the long arms and determination. He needs to be pushed to the point where he is forced to grow, but he pouted when LNJ pushed him last year. That’s when I began to dislike his game last year. I see him as more entitled than competitive.
Alexander_ says
The CBA did not comprehend a proper mechanism for cap increases as drastic as the ones we see this and next year. As a result, the *correction* that’s taking place benefits only the players that are up for renewal and not everyone under contract, going disproportionately only to new FA’s. Even when the currently contracted players get to negotiate, part of their pie will have been eaten by Conley, Mozgov and the class of 2016 and 2017. Fans are complaining because they are bad in math, not understanding cause and effect of a overly concentrated correction. The people with a legitimate beef about being screwed are all NBA players currently under contract this year and next. There should have been a provision allowing part of the cap increase to be spread evenly as a percent of salary across all players, over a certain cap amount increase.
BigCitySid10552 says
Alexander_ My understanding is the NBA Players Union wanted the $$’s distributed this way instead of gradually over a # of years. So you are correct, this year’s FA’s & next reap the benefits. All about being in the right place at the right time. 2016’s version of the Gold Rush.
Drew Gordon says
matt24 We have Mozgov, Black, and Zubac. Plus, Nance can play small ball 5. What are you talking about?
Drew Gordon says
KevTheBold Drew Gordon harry_young_shi Yep, that was the line that set off my idiot radar haha. Geeeez. Some people…